Adding babbit to one's alloy for toughness.

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  • Last Post 09 July 2013
badgeredd posted this 06 July 2013

I've been experimenting with using high tin babbit in my high pressure rifle bullets. To date I have used an equivalent alloy to Rotometals' type 2 and type 11 babbit and an experimental babbit mix with copper added to type 2 babbit to roughly approximate type 3 babbit. I intend to purchase some type 3 certified babbit from Rotometals to experiment with also.

One advantage to using the babbit is to improve the tin/antimony balance in wheel weigh alloy. Another advantage for high pressure loadings is the copper (even though in small quantities in the final alloy) seems to toughen (NOT make harder) the alloy. A disadvantage to this alloy is that I have found I must run my pot hotter to prevent nozzle freeze off in my Lee pots. I use a PID controller with my Lee pots so temperature regulation is much more precise that the original Lee mechanical thermostat. Currently I working with an 8x57 using the babbit to “balance” the mix and have found that even air cooled bullets seem to be more accurate.

My experiments to date have proven to me that the alloy with 3.5% Sn, 3.3% Sb and 0.2% Cu make a superior bullet (to COWW lead with pure Pb and tin added) for small caliber bullets, i.e. 22, 6mm, and 25 calibers when driven in the area of 50,000 psi and beyond. Water dropped, I get 28-30 bhn. I have NOT compared my alloy water dropped to straight linotype.

I have posted this to the Castboolits forum. I am wondering if anyone else here has used such alloys here and what their experience has been.

Thanks,

Edd

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onondaga posted this 06 July 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7197>badgeredd

Going hard and tough with your bullet alloy can get your bullets harder and tougher. Other things happen when you do this so bear in mind that a really good micrometer is a good friend when you are proceeding with your experiment.

The harder alloys will cast a different size than softer ones will. This you can measure this easily with a good micrometer like a Starrett accurate to .0005” such as a model #436.

Your bullet sizing dies will also have a different result on your bullets with a different alloy. The harder alloys have a different spring-back after sizing than a softer alloy has and you can measure the difference with the Starrett.

These size factors have a direct effect on group size and I completely believe that harder alloys require a more critical  fit to your rifle throat and  bore to get the same accuracy as you can get with say Lyman #2 Alloy and fitted bullets and a load that groups 1 MOA with 10 shots.

The bullet size required to get  a hard alloy to shoot that well will be different than the #2 alloy size previously optimized for accuracy because the new harder alloy has different physical properties while being shot down the bore.

When you get it right for either of them you have got it right and they shoot well, but they should not be expected to measure the same with a Starrett as two very different alloys will have to each be fitted to the bore individually according to what the rifle says for accuracy. Don't expect the exact same size bullets in 2 very different alloys to behave the same with results on paper. You will have some juggling with custom honed bullet sizing dies and a lot of measuring and testing to get equal results.

Member “Gearnasher” ( Ian) over at “CastBoolits” is a knowledgeable metallurgist and a very good amateur ballistic science guy. I  believe no one else at that website is credible and can't believe Ian has the patience to stay there. He is a different, more patient and compassionate  man than I am.

My science background is in precious alloys and Dental alloys and casting them. Ian is a complete Bullet guy and taught me some very important differences specifically in “Reduction Fluxing” of bullet alloys compared to precious alloys. He is on top of using Copper, Tin and Antimony in bullet alloys and far above the Bell Curve in knowledge on the subject you are pursuing. If you must go to CastBoolits......he is the man to discuss this with.

Gary

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pat i posted this 06 July 2013

onondaga wrote: Member “Gearnasher” ( Ian) over at “CastBoolits” is a knowledgeable metallurgist and a very good amateur ballistic science guy.

:puke: There's one word in that sentence that sums that up and it doesn't begin with k.

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onondaga posted this 06 July 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5498>pat i.

Ian might have gotten older and sassier like I am now,  than when I knew him .>. If you don't want to go the direction he steers you and are belligerent, He will steer you where you belong and  leave you walking through the mud at CastBoolits.

Gary

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jhalcott posted this 06 July 2013

Gary,I used to get some copper babbit bearings from the mill when they'd change them out. I cast quite a few bullets from those bearings in many calibers from .22 to .45. Some handgun and some rifle models. You are correct in they will be a different size then Lyman#2 or COWW alloys. They DO drop some pretty bullets though! I found them way to hard for hunting any thing but varmints. A .22 bullet could be loaded quite hot with that bearing alloy. They are very hard to size down. I broke the handle on my Lubrisizer doing it.

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badgeredd posted this 06 July 2013

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5498>pat i.

Ian might have gotten older and sassier like I am now,  than when I knew him .>. If you don't want to go the direction he steers you and are belligerent, He will steer you where you belong and  leave you walking through the mud at CastBoolits.

Gary FYI...I am a retired tool maker and I dare say I know as much if not a heck of a lot more the GN about metallurgy.

GN was (a year or so back) credible but in the last year something has gone wrong. He seems to think he has all of the answers about most everything. I assure you, he does not have the definitive answer on a host of subjects.

As for how the alloys perform as they are harder and tougher, I am aware. Thanks for the input.

Edd

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onondaga posted this 07 July 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7197>badgeredd:

I really don't see even a question mark in your opening post, You ask only if anybody here has used babbit and what their results have been. I have used it and it is like any other alloy that bullets can be made of. You make it fit and it will shoot well from a decent rifle or it is not really a suitable bullet alloy.

"FYI...I am a retired tool maker and I dare say I know as much if not a heck of a lot more the GN about metallurgy. ” This is what you said.

 If that is so, then you already knew the answer as well as GN and I know the answer. Are you really asking anything at all or just doing the CastBoolits two step to look for somebody to argue with?

Gary

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pat i posted this 07 July 2013

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7197>badgeredd:

I really don't see even a question mark in your opening post,

Gary not every topic has to be a question for you to answer. Sometimes people just write things to start a conversation. By the way there WAS a question in the OP's post. It was has anyone tried using babbit HERE. The topic's already been gone over by guys on the other forum.

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badgeredd posted this 07 July 2013

I said:

“I am wondering if anyone else here has used such alloys here and what their experience has been."

I have been experimenting with various ratios of antimony, tin, copper in lead for bullet alloys. So far I have tried ratios as low as 2% antimony and as high as 4.25% antimony with copper content as low as 0.07% and as high as 1%. Early on, I guessed that the copper content reached a point of diminishing return somewhere above 0.5% based on my results. I balance (as closely as I can with non-certified alloys) the antimony+copper content against the tin content. I have been messing with this stuff for about 1 3/4 years in general, but realized the balance was very important to a good reliable alloy about a year ago. Prior to that I was using the babbit entirely to add a little tin content to my alloy.

So the reason I asked if anyone else here has tried or worked with adding babbit to their alloy was to find out if others had experience the same or contrary to mine. That way I could get a better handle on exactly what the pros or cons are of adding the copper to an alloy. Like linotype one can cast a very hard bullet with these alloys, but unlike linotype the bullets seem to have more tensile strength...therefore allowing a much higher operating pressure similar to jacketed bullets. Your experience may differ from mine.

Edd

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RicinYakima posted this 07 July 2013

Edd,

I am first a match shooter, then a plinker, so my requirements are different than yours. About ten years ago I worked with some “high speed", high antimony and copper babbitt. My problem was making perfectly formed bullets with copper percentage over about 0.3%. If I remember correctly, it was about 84% tin, 8% antimony and 8% copper.

The issue was inconsistent shrinkage of the bullets away from the cavity wall. Even though I could find them by weighting and visual sorting, it was a pain to do. I use a Harman digital heat controller, but still it is not effective use of my time when I want to make 500 perfect bullets for matches.

I am still shooting the results, 95% WW's from the 1990's and 5% Babbitt. It makes good hard-ball alloy for the 45's and plinking bullets.

Ric

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badgeredd posted this 08 July 2013

Thanks Ric, that is what I was looking for. I have thus far found that much more copper content than the 0.3% you mention seems to cause casting problems too.

The idea of a “balanced” alloy came from several different sources, but the main push that way was because we know that Lyman #2 is an excellent alloy. There is also a mention in an old Townsend authored book of an alloy having quite high copper content. The same alloy was said to be hard to cast with due to the high copper content. By accident, I also found that the Sn=Sb+Cu ratio to be about perfect for CONSISTENT casting and shooting results.

Thanks again for the reply.

Edd

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RicinYakima posted this 08 July 2013

You are welcome, Edd.

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357Maximum posted this 09 July 2013

I too have played with copper enhanced alloys and I am doing it from a deer hunters perspective. I like what copper can do for my hunting bullets. It has allowed me to treat my castings almost identical to them copper jacketed heathen bullets.

Using railroad bearing babbit that has been superheated and then had tinned #11 braided copper wire tinned into it to the precipitation point I have found a real good sweetener for my 50%ww and 50%pure alloys. I have found that by taking 40 lbs of 50/50 and then adding in 5% of the “sweetener” I can get an alloy that is tough yet mallable (I did not say hard) and still works great on deer with proper boolit design. I shot two deer this past year with my 7TCU 21 inch contender carbine with a 130 grain flatnose cast boolit with gas check doing 2512 fps and was nothing but elated to the performance of them bullets on deer.

I will leave the Geargnasher politics out of it, but I must say this....BadgerEdd's teaching over on the “other” site is how I found success with the copper enhanced alloys. I have also seen the “detractor” here on this topic on 3 other sitess and it is always the same, but if Gary wants to regurgitate/propagate nonsense that has already been spit up by others and proved to be inaccurate and downright misleading it is his right to spew venom I spose. There are reasons some people seem to get banned no matter where they go I guess. If one cannot dazzle someone with their brilliance they can always try baffling them with BS I suppose.

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