Ruger M77 Hornet

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  • Last Post 17 July 2013
Notlwonk posted this 13 June 2013

Any one have a good bedding technique for this rifle? It's currently bedded at several points, the first couple inches of the barrel and the bottom, front/rear of the magazine area, sides and tang of the reciever. Accuracy is in the 2-3 minute range. It has a new custom barrel.  

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onondaga posted this 13 June 2013

Try something simple to change barrel resonance. First you can easily add 2 resin buttons contacting your barrel at the forearm end or even dropping an “O” ring in your barrel channel before replacing your barreled action to the stock . That will change resonance. If that doesn't work, remove the buttons and consider full floating the barrel then actually verifying the action bedding with indicator ink and the barrel float with a dollar bill passing all the way to the action.

Bedding of any extent or quality is meaningless if it does not verify with indicator ink and show even contact pressure with no high/hot spots. Use ink and re-spot the bedding in. If you don't know what this means, get help.

Dark or contrasting women's lipstick smoothed on with a brush will work if you cannot get indicator ink.

Try the simple stuff first.

Check the torque of the action fixing screws to the stock. A change there can change resonance too.

Gary

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shastaboat posted this 13 June 2013

I have found that I get best results with Ruger 77's by free floating the barrel channel forward of the action bedding. I have a 7.62x39 that would not group at all until I relieved the synthetic stock barrel channel. I also have a Ruger 77 .257 Roberts wood stock that shot much better with a free floated barrel. It is critical how you snug tighten the 3 Ruger 77 action screws. Don't overtighten and the sequence. 1. snug up the angled front screw.
2. Next snug up the rear one and if any play or action movement is seen here or if the action is not already bottomed out you may need to re-glass bed the action. The center 3rd screw is not as critical but must not be over tightened either.

With a light recoiling round like .22 Hornet you may be able to adjust the bedding screws to bottom the action or settle the action without re-glass bedding. Just down't over tighten the screws and watch for movement in the action.

Because I said so!

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R. Dupraz posted this 13 June 2013

Notlwonk:

Given a good barrel that was installed by a smith who knows what he is doing, they will shoot. I bought a new one shortly after they came out from Ruger and before they offered them with a bull barrel. So when mine came, I shot it a couple of times and then had it rebarreled with a 24” heavy Wilson. Then had it chambered in the K-Hornet. It is one of the most accurate rifles that I have ever owned. To the tune of one ragged little hole at 100 yds when loaded with IMR 4227 and a Sierra 45 gr Semi- point.

As I remember, I think mine is glass bedded and has a small ridge of glass that runs from the face of the action out to about an inch under the barrel, which the Smith did. The entire barrel is then free floated.

I had a conversation with a club member some time ago who has an unaltered Ruger Hornet. He told me that the only way that he could get decent groups was after a thin steel shim was placed between the two parts of the bolt.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 June 2013

my box stock r77h shot about 2 moa with mj bullets ... discussions with other r77h owners made mine look good ... some others shot 6 moa.

i brot mine down to 1 moa ( pre-trigger work ) by pillar bedding the main front guard screw, then adding a recoil button sunk into the bottom of the barrel about 3 inches ahead of the receiver ... for the pipsqueak hornet, i just plunged an end mill into the barrel, epoxied a round 5/8 diameter aluminum button into the plunge ... then devcon bedded that button and the barrel channel from the bolt pillar bed to about an inch in front of the button feature. i floated everything else, including that dang magazine well, which i think is the problem all along.

i think the factory pencil barrels are pretty good ... but the factory 6 lb trigger makes shooting a 6 lb. rifle challenging.

one good load was 50 gr horn sx, h4227.

ken

oh yeah, they really are a cute little thing !!

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lmcollins posted this 15 June 2013

I have never worked on one, but I did D & T a muzzleoader for a reciever sight at one time. I think they are built on the same receiver, and have the same two-piece bolt.

I have seen in print references to the lockup of the bolt wandering because of the what amounts to bad fitup of the factory barrel. If any slack in the bolt was appropriately taken-up when the barrel was fit and headespaced close to the minimum figure the bolt should cause no problem. If it were fit too tight and the ammo's case rim was over spec it would  just not lock-up, or need a push to close it and lock. Taking the bolt apart and putting a shime between the two parts should only make up for poor barrel fitting. That's just my thoughts as a basement gunsmith.

One of the problems with the Hornet has always been that the case is so darn delicate. How are your dies set? Are you over sizeing your case? Take a case fired in your rifle, mark it with a magic marker, resize it, and see if you are not giving yourself a problem. You always want the case to headspace on it's shoulder. I'd just resize it enough to give you a good tight bullet tension to hold your bullet. Lke necksize.Try jacked bullets first (I think?) The case is so thin, the cartridge so small, your feeding “push” with a bolt action so great that you probably only need to resize enough for neck tension. Also, when you do this make certain that your cases haven't become overlong. That could cause irregularities in pressure, release, and accuracy.

I hate the Hornet, Therefore, I made myself up a 221 Fireball on a Remington 700 ADL. If I had one, I'd get someone to turn it into a KHornet so that you at least have a shoulder to work with.

How good is your bedding job? A good bedding job puts the action with good contact in the stock and NO stress on it or the barrel past its root. I wonder if you have not screwed yourself up putting around. This cartridge is so nonviolent that it should be hard - but who knows what you've done. We cannot put the thing “in hand” through the computer, and take it apart, and offer thoughts on what you've got.

First, I'd suggest that you checkout your sizing. I'd also make certain that your bullet is close to the lands. Not over .005/.010. Hornet bullets are small and thin jacketed. Fragile. This isn't a 30 cal, or a 38 Special.

Before I torn into the bedding: try the above. If these things don't work, try a couple layers of elecricle tape; one layer at a time for forearm pressure. If I decided to re-bed I'd get someone to make you up some pillers. Glue them in, and then re-bed.

I'll love to hear how you make out.

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Goatwhiskers posted this 15 June 2013

First off, rimmed cases headspace on the rim, not on the shoulder. Nuff said. I have a 77/22 that would give about 1 1/2” groups with factory ammo. I shimmed the bolt joint so that when a round is chambered a slight pressure is required to close the bolt to remove any headspace slack. Groups immediately dropped to the 1/2” range. I tried the conventionally used powders with no real improvement but discovered that 13.5gr A1680 pushing a Sierra 40gr HP consistently gives groups less than 1/4” C to C. I'm happy. Goatwhiskers

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hunterspistol posted this 15 June 2013

Although I shoot the 22 Hornet in a TC contender (hunter's pistol format) there are some things about the ammunition that may help you to know.

The thin cases are best when once-fired and Neck Sized. I only neck size to retain bullet tension.   It prefers 45 to 50 grain projectiles.

Another point is that the powder combination will only group in one certain .1 grain otherwise, the spread at 100 yards is drastic. Load development is crucial and has only 5 tenths/grain to work within.

As tiny as it is, it can be pretty finicky. I did get it to shoot lead bullets pretty good. For hunting, the V-Max 50 grain worked the best. In fact, it was the most accurate load I'd used overall.

But then again, my 10” scoped barrel isn't going to really compare to your rifle.

Wishing you better luck, Ron

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TomG posted this 15 June 2013

Guys, I think you are on the right track in reducing the headspace clearance on the rimmed cases with the two piece bolt.

I have a 77/22 rimfire that, I think, uses the same type bolt. I rebarreled it from a 22 mag RF to a 22 LR with a match grade Shilen barrel. I used a reamer that let the bullets nose engrave the rifling. When I headspaced it, I miked up a bunch of rim thickesses on Wolf Ammo and made up a little headspace gauge that was .002” shorter than the thinnest rim I measured. This allowed me to crush the case rims a slight amount when chambered and took up any play that would be the result of a loose bolt on a thin rim.

With a home made simple tuner weight and a free float barrel this gun Aggs at 3/4” groups all day long. That is except for the one out of 50 cartridge that is in each box of rimfire LR ammo!!!

If you don't have the equipment or the skill to do this type of re chambering, I think the shimming process would accomplish the same thing if the correct shim thickness is found.

I just wish they had threaded the barrels into the rimfire guns instead of the clamp system.

Tom Gray

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Notlwonk posted this 15 June 2013

I'm using neck sized brass that gets trimmed and I weigh the powder charges, so my loading techniques are there. At one time there was a problem with bullets seated crooked. A fancy (expensive) seating die did nothing to alleviate that problem. A Lee collet neck sizer was the answer.

This Ruger is the Varmint model, laminated stock and the new barrel added about 8 ounces. The sights are Redfield International. Wether iron or glass sights were used it's about the same group size

Ken Cambell mentioned something about the mag well being floated, got me to thinking!  As I recall, the M-1 reciever needs to be free in the center. My hornet mag well is bedded side to side in the front and in the rear it's back and sides.... well,.... was, I relieved it earlier today.  So now the tang and the first couple inches of the barrel are bedded. The bottom mid area and bottom front of the reciever are in contact on factory surfaces. 

I've shimmed the bolt body in the past and it did seem to help but not to the tune of 1 min+.  I'll add that to the list of things to try again.

We'll see what happens Mon. morning at the range.

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lmcollins posted this 16 June 2013

Tom G did what I said I'd do. Set the thing up tight.

I know it is a rimmed case and how it headspaces. But as others have pointed out too, the thing to do is to size the case as little as possible to hold the bullet,and try to use the “crush” of the case to keep things as tight as possible. Maybe even jam the bulet.

Take the Lee Enfield 303. It too is a rimmed case with much taper and a minimal shoulder. The old Enfield has a rear locking bolt with a separate head. To get better accuracy and case life it is a known fact that the thing to do is to do as little case sizing as possible. 

A KHornet with a shoulder would even do this better. When we reload belted cases we always tell people to use the case's shoulder and taper to set the die to, rather than the belt for better case life and accuracy.

If you were going to turn your rifle into a K Hornet you could put a small insert with Force 44 solider into the rim recess and rechamber as Tom G did. You would have a much better chance of having everything workout correctly. You could use both rim and perhaps better case fit to your advantage. The Hornet is delicate. It is easy to compress. Many say it has been a stinker for them in other rifles. I do not have the rifle and dies to play with. Just thinking out load from experience. You are working with both case rim tolerences and chambering tolerances, and reloading die tolerences. Taken together?

Bedding the thing correctly is another problem. Tom even made up a barrel tuner. Bless his industry.

 

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Uncle Russ posted this 17 June 2013

Gents;

Will someone with patience please explain to me this bolt shim stuff a little better. I have two Hornets, a 77/22 Ruger and a Winchester M54. Both shoot like crap.

I have a love hate relationship with them as I can not part with them yet I hate to pull them out to shoot as the results will be so dismal. Next step up is a stock Rem 722 in .222 Rem. What a sweetie. I don't expect the Hornets to shoot like the .222 but come on, my skeet gun can produce better groups sometimes.

Is the deal with the shims that you just make a firm solid bolt closure? Kinda like shoving a cast bullet into the lands? And bedding is purely an experimental proposition, correct. Dink with it till it works or wins!

The Ruger has been through a lot. Previous owner had the barrel set back to shorten bullet jump. Smith that did the work scored the chamber so when you fired anything more than a medium load the brass would stick in the chamber to be pried out with a screwdriver. Back to Ruger for a new barrel (mistake to the tune of $190) Found out Ruger will do anything, their way. No real gunsmiths in my area.

New barrel shoots as bad as the previous one. So I am thinking barrel is not the problem. I believe bolt and bedding are within the realm of my talents so can someone explain it to me? The WHAT and HOW!!!!!!!!!!

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Notlwonk posted this 17 June 2013

It shot a little better this morning. This is after relieving the bedding around the mag well. It grouped in a horizontal group, a shim under the barrel at the end of the fore end gave it a vertical group.

A friend was at the range and I showed him the bedding. He asked if there was any  foreward/backward movement. Without the screws the barrel and action would shuck foreward and back a little. Maybe were getting somewhere!

I'll rebed the tang and maybe in front of the mag well.

Shimming the bolt: What I did was to take a strip of .0005 (i think) stainless feeler stock and wrapped it around the stub of the front part of the bolt. You will have to punch a hole in the feeler stock for the cross pin once it's assembled.

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Goatwhiskers posted this 18 June 2013

You dis-assemble the bolt and make a washer of suitable thickness that installs between the two sections. Takes a wee bit of experimenting. As I said, I set mine such that a small amount of pressure is required to close the bolt on a case thereby removing excessive headspace slack. This allows proper headspacing on the rim and allows the case to conform to the chamber. I now size 1/8” of the neck only. Time will tell but logic says that this plus the slightly gentler pressure curve of the chosen powder should allow longer case life. It certainly worked wonders on the accuracy side. Goat

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TomG posted this 19 June 2013

Guys,

If you set a gun up so that it takes some extra force to close the bolt, remember that it's putting a lot of friction on the bolt lugs and lug recesses in the action. Make sure you always lube the bolt lugs with a good grease like Mobil 1 to add some lube to those surfaces.

I've seen a lot of nice guns galled up pretty bad because the owner didn't size his cases enough and damaged those surfaces. If it's just a small amount of drag, it will probably be OK if you lube up well. It's a lot of work to re-machine those surfaces if they get damaged.

If you shim it up, put in just enough to feel a little difference when closing the bolt on the fattest rim.

Tom

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Notlwonk posted this 19 June 2013

Yesterday I shimmed the bolt and jammed a piece of aluminum between the front of the mag well and the stock, it ain't going to move! The group was 3 5/16".

I loaded up some Lyman 225438 cast bullets just to fire form the cases. I didn't spend much time trying to get an even charge weight. Just 2 scoops (Lee .3 CC dipper ) of Unique and mix of primers....that....well, they were primers. A dozen shots gave a 2 3/4” group with a core group of 7 hits within 1 1/4". Funny, the original Ruger barrel didn't like lead.

Sounds like a very fussy barrel that may prefer lead. I'll try some 40 grain jacketed next. 

There is a local 200 yd. match this Sat. We'll see how difficult it is to load a Krag magazine in the rapid fire stages. The Krag with cast will out shoot the Hornet!!!       

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 June 2013

hi mr. wonk ... for many of us here shootsters ... getting a naughty rifle to shoot decent is most of the fun ... sounds like your r77h is being naughty enough that future success might lead to dangerous levels of boistrous joy and overt hillarity ...

consider BEDDING ... remember that at the shot, the metalwork tries to slide backward in the wood ... i believe that even 22 rimfires must have a recoil structure that welds the metal ( preferably the stiff front receiver ring ) to the stock .... pillar bedding the action bolts do not provide a recoil system, their purpose is to provide a consistent, low stressful, non bending downforce on the ( receiver ) ... the ruger 77h action does not provide a very good, stiff, recoil feature to fight rearward jittering . my scheme was to inlay a button into the bottom of the barrel, then bed that with release agent into the wood just forward of the front receiver ring ... that can be done in many ways without a machine shop. for a hornet it doesnt have to be very much area ...

i put it up there because all the wood removed for the magazine structure doesnt leave much stock stiffness from the front ring back...

also recommend doing a chamber/throat casting ... my rifle wanted 50 gr bullets in order to get closer to the rifling. no magazine ...

fwiw, i have a new barrel now that i intend to set back and throat for a shorter bullet ... wanna try those zippy little 40 gr. pills !!

keep us informed ...

ken

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Notlwonk posted this 16 July 2013

OK, finally made some progress. I scraped away a few thousands of bedding material and rebedded. I used a fair amount of fiberglass so that the epoxy wouldn't seep for hours. A little dab on the flat surfaces where the bottom of the reciever sits, around the tang, for app. the first 2” of the barrel and a blob in front of the mag well. Used 2 wood clamps while it cured.

6 Sierra. 45 gr. SP went into 1.3” with 5 going in to a .87 mainly horizontal group. Shot at 100 yds over a rest using Redfield International sights.

 

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tturner53 posted this 17 July 2013

Public service announcement; You can rent a 'K Hornet' reamer real cheap from Greybeard Outdoors at their Handi Rifle forum. I did, ran it by hand into an H&R .22 Hornet barrel with a 9” twist. Came out nice and clean. I'm still working on loads. I could use any references for heavy loads in a K Hornet, cast or jacketed. I'm doing a lot of interpolating in this project and have pierced a primer or two.

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R. Dupraz posted this 17 July 2013

tturner53:

The following is the load for my heavy Wilson barreled K Ruger. I discovered this combination at the outset and have used it since then.

12.5 grns of H-4227 and the Sierra 45 grn semi-point. Only sized 1/2 the length of the neck.

I haven't fired this rifle for several yrs now. And Keep in mind that the H-4227 was the current powder at that time. So all that I can say is at that time this load worked fine in this rifle with no pressure signs.

I still have some of this ammo left but no more H-4227. So I'll have to start over with the current IMR 4227. The last eight shots that were left in one box went into a 3/8” at 100 yds. And I sent the target to the smith who did the work. You are right about being carful with this little case when developing full loads.

Never shot many targets with the rifle as it was one of my prairie dog eradicators.

RD

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