Lead Sources

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  • Last Post 27 November 2013
Revolverman posted this 06 May 2013

I get metal from the local transfer station. They have small amounts of lead at the right price (free). What I'm wondering is which sources of lead would be considered nearly pure. I've been sticking to flashing but have seen plenty of lead pipe and even part of the keel off a boat. I think the pipe gave me both casting and hardness difficulty and have been steering clear of it. Best bets for soft lead???

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R. Dupraz posted this 06 May 2013

I have used lots of lead pipe. Both for smokeless and muzzle loaders. From what I understand, pipe, while fairly soft can be of various lead alloys. It's kind of a pain to get it to where it can be used, but worth it from my experience.

Boat keel lead? I'd take it. Matter of fact. If it's lead, I'd haul it all away as fast as I could fore some other pilgrim gets wind of it. If you don't have one already, get yourself a hardness tester. Then, hard or soft, can alloy it the way you want it.

RD

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Pigslayer posted this 15 September 2013

Went to the range this AM to shoot I my .444 Handi Rifle as I'm still playing with getting it to shoot like I want. Upon arrival found that the range was closed due to the annual picnic. Too many children running around for shooting. So for five dollars I get to eat hotdogs, hamburgers & hot sausage sandwiches along with various salads. Just what my 61 year old butt needs! Anyway, as long as I was there I decided to mine the berms of the pistol range. Just picking at what was laying on top produced about 10 lbs of ingots . Just finished melting them down actually. I am fortunate in that I have been given express permission to have at it when the range is closed. I have to remember to bring out a hoe next time to dig below the surface. I was told that only one other member mines the berms & that range has been in existence since the thirties. Lord only knows how many hundreds of pounds of lead are there! I have a good lead supply!

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Rich/WIS posted this 24 September 2013

I mine our range on a regular basis, made a tool from scrap wood and short pieces of metal rod to mine with. Did this a few weeks ago and ended up with about 350# of ingots for less than an hours work.

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Little Debbie posted this 24 September 2013

I'd take anything that looks like lead, especially if your transfer station guy sets it aside for you. Soft lead works fine in muzzle loaders and most non magnum handgun loads. I treat lead pipe as essentially pure, just like cable sheathing and roof flashing. If you can't use it all, it makes great trading stock for lead alloys you want, or tin, or solder. To quote Dean Grennell ! “if it looks plumbous, I'm likely to make bullets out of it” I'm jealous of your find.

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mp11 posted this 18 November 2013

Revolverman wrote: I get metal from the local transfer station. They have small amounts of lead at the right price (free).

Sorry for the dumb question, but what is a transfer station? Thinking of getting started in this hobby, but need lead resources.

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Little Debbie posted this 19 November 2013

In my county and aparently many counties in the U.S. have satellite stations where you can dump your garbage rather than travel to the main dump. The operators of most transfer stations I've dealt with have a keen eye for anything that might serve a better purpose than being tossed as garbage. Lead is one of them. Unfortunately the guy that runs ours does something with the lead, but Ive gotten steel from my transfer station.

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Revolverman posted this 20 November 2013

A transfer station is a dump that recycles any thing they can. Ours sorts metals and sells them (as well as plastics, glass, boxboard, cardboard, newsprint and tin cans. The local guy saves a little lead for me.

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mp11 posted this 20 November 2013

Revolverman wrote: A transfer station is a dump that recycles any thing they can. Ours sorts metals and sells them (as well as plastics, glass, boxboard, cardboard, newsprint and tin cans. The local guy saves a little lead for me. OK thanks, actually I picked up about 25 lbs at one of these location this morning. It seems most of what I had was fishing weights like you put on the end of a line. Any idea if these weights could be melted and cast as is-like wheel weights, of does it need an alloy additive?

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onondaga posted this 21 November 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7870>mp11

Fishing weights are usually pure or close to pure lead but can actually be anything, even pure Bismuth with no lead at all is getting popular for fishing weights.  If you can easily scratch it with your finger nail it is a soft alloy close to pure lead. If you can't scratch it at all, pass it up unless it is a certified or guaranteed alloy and you want what is in it.

Look for a source of range  scrap. I melt and clean up the lead from jacketed bullets from my shooting club, That is usually Antimonial lead that is pure lead and 2-4% Antimony. Range scrap is replacing WheelWeight for casters as the lead wheel weights are illegal now about everywhere across America.

Gary

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mp11 posted this 23 November 2013

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7870>mp11

Fishing weights are usually pure or close to pure lead but can actually be anything, even pure Bismuth with no lead at all is getting popular for fishing weights.  If you can easily scratch it with your finger nail it is a soft alloy close to pure lead. If you can't scratch it at all, pass it up unless it is a certified or guaranteed alloy and you want what is in it. OK I'm sure you're right about the fishing weights being almost pure lead. So with that said, exactly what do I need to add to 23 lbs of this lead, to be able to cast with it? Will adding Lyman #2 harden it enough, and how much of it do I add to the 23 lbs of lead? Looking for some kind of ratio. Thanks.

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onondaga posted this 24 November 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7870>mp11

You are asking what will improve the flow quality of pure lead and make it easier to cast and flow well into molds, The answer is simple. Lead with 1% -  2% Tin casts beautifully. You only need that small quantity of tin added to very significantly improve the casting quality of pure lead.

So, if you have some Lyman #2, That has 5% tin and 5% Antimony with 90% lead,  it is just 10th grade Algebra to find the answer of how much #2 alloy you need to add to 23 pounds of pure lead to bring it up to 2% tin in an alloy. You will do better learning to do that yourself rather than me giving you the answer.

Be aware that 1% to 2% Tin only added to pure lead has a negligible effect on the hardness of the lead. Tin alone is a poor hardener for bullet alloys and is chiefly added to increase flow ability and casting fill-out quality. This remains true until the Tin percentage gets to 5% of the lead weight. Then, that 5% significantly  optimizes ductility for hunting bullet expansion without cracking and fragmentation upon impact with game.

The high percentages of tin and Antimony in #2 alloy give that alloy a specific strength and ductility and #2 alloy flat nose bullets can be depended upon to expand double caliber and have zero weight loss when striking game with 1,000 or more foot pounds. This was determined well over 100 years ago by Lyman and Lyman #2 alloy has remained the first alloy of choice for cast hunting bullets for that long and for that reason.

Hint:   How much of a 5% Tin alloy needs to be added to 23 lbs of a 0% Tin alloy to bring the sum of the alloy to 2% Tin.

If you do what you are asking with #2 alloy and pure lead mixed to get an alloy with 2% Tin, don't forget that the Antimony is there in #2 alloy. You will end up with an alloy that is 96% lead, 2% Tin and 2% Antimony. 96-2-2 is a common alloy for moderate pistol or light rifle loads.

Gary

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giorgio de galleani posted this 24 November 2013

Very interesting  the information on  the composition FMJ bullet lead core,as I can get free range scrap.

Lead wheel weights are becoming scarce too.in the “paese do sole"

Bars of 50% lead tin alloy are available at  the plumber 's store ,Damned high price, I try to use the least pssible  quantity just to get well filled bullets.

My 45/70  , 444 marlin and 357H&H  350 gr  and plus  hunting bullets. do not need expansion ,they are big already, and you  can eat up to the bullet hole.

 

 

 

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John Alexander posted this 24 November 2013

Gary,

In your informative post about the role of tin in affecting the ease of casting and hardness you say that Lyman #2

“can be depended upon to expand double caliber and have zero weight loss when striking game with 1,000 or more foot pounds."

Although 1,000 ft-lbs is often cited as the minimum striking energy for humane kills on deer sized game. It seems to me that the point at which a bullet will expand is probably better related to a certain velocity level when striking game rather than to ft -lbs of energy. Otherwise a 100 grain 25 caliber bullet would have to have a considerably higher velocity to initiate expansion than a 500 grain 45 caliber bullet -- which seems unlikely.

Typo maybe???

John

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onondaga posted this 24 November 2013

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander:

Not a typo John. The 1,000 foot pounds is required to take maximum advantage of the ductility and strength of the 5% Tin and 5% Antimony in the lead alloy #2 Lyman.

At 1,000 foot pounds impact energy, an alloy with significantly more Tin and significantly more Antimony has increased brittleness and increased risk of fragmentation upon impact. An alloy with significantly less Tin and significantly less Antimony at that impact energy level  has less strength to support the ductility of the alloy and this significantly increases the risk of the  bullet splattering and losing weight on impact with game.

Lyman original research and development on their #2 alloy has been well documented and eminently proven by hunters and hunting guide associations globally for well over a century. I consider these qualities of #2 alloy indisputable and completely reliable for the cast bullet hunter using #2 Lyman Alloy regardless of caliber or bullet weight or the velocity needed to deliver 1,000 foot pounds on impact with game the size of Whitetail Deer.  Larger dangerous game like Bear and Lions and Rhinoceros, etc 1,500 plus foot pounds impact with #2 alloy bullets is the historical  recommendation of guide associations.

It is eminently true that a 100 grain 25 caliber bullet would have to have a considerably higher velocity to initiate expansion than a 500 grain 45 caliber bullet. This is not merely an opinion John, it is metallurgy and physics in a static scientific relation with the  properties of a specific alloy smacking meat. At the 1,000 foot pound impact of a 100 grain 25 caliber bullet you can rely on the #2 alloy flat nose  bullet to mushroom picturesquely, maintain 100% of its weight and pass through a Whitetail Deer with a 50 caliber hole. The only relation velocity has to this is purely mathematical.  A certain velocity is needed for a 25 caliber 100 grain bullet in #2 alloy to be delivered with 1,000 foot pounds on impact. The same is true for a 500 grain 45 caliber bullet in #2 alloy. Deliver that energy with either bullet and either one will expand double in caliber on impact and pass through game reliably with #2 alloy flat nose bullets. That is what Lyman #2 alloy was developed to do and it does so very well.

An example from my ballistic calculator:

A .257” FN 100 gr #2 alloy bullet requires 2576 fps muzzle velocity to deliver 1,000 foot pounds at 100 yards.

A .459” FN 500 gr  #2 alloy bullet requires 1,008 fps muzzle velocity to deliver 1,000 foot pounds 100 yards.

Either one of these loads will nicely bang flop punch over a whitetail deer at 100 yards with pass through penetration and double caliber mushrooming of the #2 alloy FN bullet with zero weight loss of the bullet. These are not extreme examples, they are what should be reasonably expected with #2 alloy FN bullets used in these examples.

Gary

P.S. Wish I was better and could hunt today. My son and grandson hunted yesterday from my Bear blind, they saw only 2 small doe. They blamed the shortage of game on my not being there and annoying the animals with my Turkey call!

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mckg posted this 24 November 2013

I couldn't cast a single bullet the first time I tried pipes. After a little research I increased the pot's temperature and found out that even my most troublesome molds would deliver perfect castings with that pure lead. Too little tin (but more than none) seems to cause problems; it could come from the pipes' solder.

A friend who worked in foundry explained to me how the addition of tin would lower the usable temp of the alloy. I of course cannot remember this now, but note that tin melts at lower, and antimony at higher temps than lead; it looks like tin beats antimony any day if temperature is the key. I seem to remember “tin filling molecular(?) gaps in lead (like sand in a marble jar) and pure lead being therefore less pliable than tin/lead alloy", but don't quote me on this.

About expansion, someone tested available pistol ammo in the 70's(?) and the results showed (to me) a clear pattern of speed versus shape and alloy/construction; not caliber. The same bullet could be “useless” if impacting too slow or too fast; respectively not expanding and splattering or shattering. So you have to match your bullet to your speed.

For higher speeds, Ly Nr2 is often quoted as the best balance between expansion and weight retention. The 1000 ft/lbs principle is new to me and very teasing... What about other alloys and pure lead?

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onondaga posted this 24 November 2013

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=7169>mckg

The quantity of research on alloys other than Lyman #2 is scarce. Pure lead will expand more than #2 at lower velocities but pure lead does not have the strength to hold together as well as #2 has.  I stick with pure lead for muzzle loading, shotgun slugs and low energy small game bullets. I use certified #2 or a #2 clone of equal BHN for all other shooting. I don't go harder than #2 alloy even with gas checked rifle bullets. I concentrate on bullet fit more to achieve velocity with gas checked bullets and that has consistently paid off for me.

I did try pure lead in subsonic 7.62X39 squirrel loads but I got notably better accuracy with the same bullet mold and load level in #2 alloy. I plan to try pure lead and Antimonial scrap range lead for paper patched bullets in 30-06 this coming spring and summer.

Gary

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John Alexander posted this 25 November 2013

Gary,

Re: Discussion about whether total energy or strtiking velocity determines expansion of #2 alloy.

How much bullet energy it takes to reliably kill a deer or a rhinoceros is not relevant to the question of whether total energy or striking velocity expands a #2 bullet which is what I was suggesting might be a typo. We shouldn't confuse the two.

If it takes 1,000 ft.-lb. to initiate expansion with #2 alloy as you claim, that means that: A 700 grain bullet of #2 alloy (from a 50 S&W) would expand when going only 800 fps at impact, but a 50 grain 22 caliber bullet would have to go 3,000fps at impact to initiate expansion.

If true, that is very surprising to say the least.

I don't have any experience with 700 grain bullets at 800fps, but I believe I have seen 50 grain 22 bullets of alloy similar to #2 expand at velocities much lower than 3,000 fps. I am away from home and my notebooks and can't say for sure.

Would you please cite a reference, or references, of actual testing (not hunting stories or opinions or Lyman advertising claims) where you got the information that total energy and not velocity is the critical factor in initiating expansion?

Thanks,

John

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onondaga posted this 25 November 2013

John,  Herter's Professional Guide Manuals and very old Lyman advertisements/manuals  I had access to as a boy in the late 50s and early 60s is where I garnered the info. I can't give you an exact page reference. I believe the big nose Keith bullets are based on this impact factor to alloy strength ratio also.

Consider the 1,000 foot pounds impact energy delivered as I mentioned and this energy translated to pounds per square inch on the meplat of a flat nose #2 alloy bullet. 19,000 psi is where Lyman #2 begins to permanently deform. The math is there John, it is a little fuzzy due to static friction during penetration but this is how I believe it works. The area of the flat nose in particular is very relevant in the Lyman/Herter's scenario. I also recall that round nose and spire shapes cause a decided deficit in the results predicted for double caliber expansion. I do actually believe my flat-nose  .500 S&W and .458 WM loads optimized for Lyman #2 alloy performance at my hunting maximum expected  distances will continue to perform as expected. http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/PB260047_zps9cf46bfb.jpg.html>http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/AL45RD.jpg.html>

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onondaga posted this 26 November 2013

John, let me highlight that the nose shape is related to the doubts you express about expansion in a profound way.  This is why I favor the largest flat noses in my bullet selections for hunting and I why also prefer to hollow point round noses to increase the smack area effected by striking force.

Gary

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John Alexander posted this 26 November 2013

Gary wrote:

"John, Herter's Professional Guide Manuals and very old Lyman advertisements/manuals I had access to as a boy in the late 50s and early 60s is where I garnered the info."

Gary,

Thanks for letting me know the sources of your contention that terminal kinetic energy and not velocity determines when Lyman #2 expands. I have old Herter catalogs which are hoot but not the Guides Manual. I also have some old Lyman's reloading manuals so will see what I can find when I get home. However, I will be very surprised and pleased if I find any evidence of actual testing to support their opinions.

I think it is a shame that there is so little tested information in the cast bullet lore that is passed down from generation to generation much of it questionable but seldom questioned. That lack of testing prevents us from making progress and finding out what is really important and what isn't.

I have been searching the internet to see what I could find about the parameters that affect cast bullet expansion. It seems that we know quite a lot about how hardness and nose shapes effect expansion but I haven't been able to find anything that ties expansion to the total kinetic energy at impact.

Most of what I can find is on the expansion of jacketed bullets and it is seems to be always related to velocity which seems reasonable. But I have found little on cast bullets.

I am sure that there is more information than I have found, maybe in old Fouling Shots and will continue to dig.

Since we haven't found anything substantial to indicate whether expansion of #2 allow is triggered by a specific energy level or not, I guess you and I will have to agree to disagree until results of testing is found because it seems a lot more likely to me that velocity and not energy is the best indicator of when a bullet will expand for the reasons I gave in my last post.

John

PS: I hope you are making good progress in recovering from your recent health setback and best wishes for a full recovery.

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onondaga posted this 26 November 2013

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=6375>John Alexander :

“Most of what I can find is on the expansion of jacketed bullets and it is seems to be always related to velocity which seems reasonable. But I have found little on cast bullets. “

Just seeming reasonable never cut the issue for me John, similarly to the way you question expansion of #2 alloy related to impact, I question jacketed bullets.

The particular characteristic of jacketed bullets that causes me to prefer cast bullets is that the jackets are so similar in copper jacket composition and purpose. The jackets enclose pretty soft Antimonial lead to control expansion with jacket thickness, jacket coverage of the lead and jacket modification by scoring , slitting and so on, Very few specialized jacketed bullet designs have done anything to modify the 2% antimonial soft lead inside the jackets.

The jackets open up and the soft lead splatters out: http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/257bob300ydmuleyBudlight_zps86793e31.jpg.html>http://s30.photobucket.com/user/rhymeswithwhat/media/mushroom_zps7401a82f.jpg.html>

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John Alexander posted this 27 November 2013

Gary,

You are absolutely right being “reasonable," “seeming logical.” or being “just common sense,” shouldn't cut it to prove anything and I didn't mean to imply that it should.

I would add to this list of things that don't cut it: “I have seen it in print,” "it is a well know rule,” "It has been known for a long time,” and “that's the way I was taught by a good cast bullet shooter.”

Cast bullet lore if full of these weak excuses for taking something as fact -- instead of just opinion. Only well designed testing should be accepted to “prove” things.

I was just noting that when someone does try to do testing on bullet expansion they always seem to wind up relating it to impact velocity. A fact that is worth thinking about.

I would like to see a report of some well designed testing that shows if it really takes 1,000 ft-lbs of energy to expand any flat nose bullet of #2 alloy.

Until such a report surfaces or new testing is done, you and I have a simple difference of opinion. You believe that 1,000 ft-lbs of energy is the point which expands Lyman #2 flat nose bullets no matter what the caliber or weight, and I doubt it.

All the other discussion about what it takes to kill a deer, behavior of different nose shapes, and the virtues of all lead hunting bullets are interesting but beside the point.

I am sorry that what started by me trying to be helpful and point out what I thought was an obvious typo in your original post has taken so much of our time as well as the time of anyone unfortunate to be reading it.

John

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Tom Acheson posted this 27 November 2013

This just adds more confusion...

I use an iron sighted revolver to deer hunt. Going back to 1982-87 I used a 296-grain bullet in a S&W Model 57. Then in 1988 I switched to a modified Dan Wesson 357 Super Mag revolver chambered in what I call .41 Wyoming. The case is a shortened 200 Swift rifle case, about 1.600” long. The bullet is a custom Hoch mould (see sheet 2 of attachment) weighing 323-grains. The alloy is wheelweights. MV is about 1180 fps.

Between the two of them (25) deer have been taken with 3 of them MN Whitetails and the majority WY Mule Deer. The vast majority of the hits were through the rib cage. In those situations the entry and exit wound holes were the same size....no expansion. But the way the deer behaved when hit it didn't appear like the absence of expansion was a factor.

At one time (about 1982, don't know if it is still a requirement) the WY regulations said that handgun ammo had to have a minimum of 500-foot pounds of retained energy at 100-yards. The typical .357 factory ammo didn't meet that requirement.

See, confusing on the energy detail.

Tom

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