Bullet Tempering

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  • Last Post 14 July 2012
billglaze posted this 17 June 2012

I've been spending a whole lot of time in standing bullets on their bases in preparation for putting them in the oven for hardening purposes. Question: Does everybody stand up the bullets in this manner? It's time-concuming and frustrating--one will fall over, taking others with it, and I have to do the job all over again to get them standing.
Is it possible to just dimp them in a metal pan, and put them in the oven that way, in a random fashion laying on their sides,and with some touching others? If so boy, it would sure be a time-saver. Any experiences, pro or con, will sure be appreciated. T.I.A.

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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Maven posted this 17 June 2012

I made small baskets from hardware cloth (1/4” square openings) and a handle from copper wire as per Dennis Marshall's recommendation.  The CB's lie on their sides, but no more than 2 layers deep.  A dowel with a bent nail allows fast transfer of the hot basket and its contents to cold water.  The method works, but I don't heat treat anymore, mostly because of the unreliability of the oven's thermostat.  Barring that, I was pleased with the result.

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delmarskid1 posted this 18 June 2012

I don't stand them up. I go a single layer. Two must work though. I just pour them in a large bucket and stand back. I like excitement.

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onondaga posted this 18 June 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5098>billglaze:

Heat soak time increase will completely compensate for bullets just tossed in a pan and not upright.

Most recommendations on heat treatment mention 1/2 hour heat soak time at the temp you wish ( I use 370 Deg. F. ). I had your same concerns and heat soak for 45 minutes instead because I just pour the bullets in the pan,  and the way they land is the way they are heat treated.

I cool by dumping into a bucket of ice water when I heat treat bullets.

I have found a new dealer for Lino scrap in town so I no longer heat treat and only alloy my bullet metals to the hardness  I want and get them there as dropped in hardness and not needing any heat treatment.

Gary

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billglaze posted this 18 June 2012

Yesterday evening I did a small batch of 90 bullets. They are 95 gr. RCBS 6mm. I've worked the oven up by trial and error of tempering batches until the digital thermostat reads 485 deg. which may or may not be correct--we all know how these things go. Anyway, I took them out and quenched them after about an hour. No bad effects except I had several groups of 2 or 3 that clumped together. Doing so apparently didn't disfigure or mis-shape them. They were standing in a band of aluminum about 1/2” high, (made by cutting off a ring from a soda pop can in my bandsaw), on the flat bottom of a cooking pan that my wife was going to throw away.. Originally, the idea was to steady them enough that I didn't get a domino effect when standing them up and one fell over. They are cast of W-W, and now, after sitting for 20 hrs. they read 30-32 on my LBT hardness tester. Next time, I'm going to try the way several of you casters are doing it; I'm carefully going to spread them around on the bottom of a wire basket I've used in the past, about 2 or 3 deep, and try “cooking” them this way for an hour. We'll see.

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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onondaga posted this 18 June 2012

Personal opinion here......485 Deg. F. is way too hot. Most ovens swing 20 or more degrees or even more at best. Your clumping of 2 or 3 bullets  is your bullets melting together on the temperature swing. The bullets are speaking LOUD  to you by sticking together.

This is not flattering at all for your experimenting in heat soak  temperatures.

It is very likely that if some of them stuck together that all of them are distorted to a small degree and accuracy will be affected.

It is only lead and time, I'd say melt them and cast them again, but heat treat at 370.

Maybe it is your run-on sentence wording that is confusing: "Anyway, I took them out and quenched them after about an hour." Reading that literally, I have to ask, do you take them out of the oven and then wait an hour before quenching them? If that is what you are doing, quenching instantly when removing bullets from the oven is better and is the standard method for quenching.

Gary

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billglaze posted this 18 June 2012

Sorry--Yes, I am quenching them after a short walk across the kitchen (Me walking, not thebullets)--they're not exposed to room temperature for any more than 5 seconds. I worked to get the hottest temperature I could get, because that is the way Veral Smith said to establish the temperature for “curing” the things. Put a single sample bullet in a pan, and keep progressively raising the temperature until the bullet “slumps.” Then, back off 5 degreees. I have checked the bullets that “stuck” to each other, and visually or with a micrometer, (not a caliper) there is no difference I can see from the ones that didn't stick, and no out of roundness. As far as the run-on sentence, I seem to compose and then go back and add until the sentence is uklnderstandable only by me. I guess it's time to go back to my “Composition and Rhetoric Textbook” for a review. Thanks for your reply. This list is a gem!

Bill

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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billglaze posted this 18 June 2012

Note: The impossible to understand word is supposed to be “understandabled."

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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onondaga posted this 18 June 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5098>billglaze:

Backing off 5 degrees from the slump temperature is not practical for my oven. I know that my kitchen oven  temp goes +- 20 degrees at least when cycling and that varies also. What do you have, a lab grade oven there?

You really are trying to get maximum hardness.

I've not had good results with bullets that hard. My Lyman #2 alloy bullets in .223 group less than 1 MOA at 100 yards . I tried harder bullets and increasing velocity to get flatter shooting loads. I came to the conclusion that higher pressure/higher velocity loads are more sensitive to bullet size in my rifle. Even when I sized larger  or smaller the hard bullets were shaved by the rifling and accuracy was lost. I could not gain significant velocity without losing accuracy beyond 2550 fps and gas checked #2 alloy bullets in .223. My rifle won't do better than .225” gas checked bullets of #2 alloy at ~2400 fps.  Also, the best I could get with straight certified  Linotype was only another 100 fps and not worth it to me . Additionally the Linotype shatters on impact with game and the #2 doesn't.

What are you shooting at? Paper or animals?

Gary

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billglaze posted this 20 June 2012

I haven't shot at anything warmer than a piece of paper for over 40 years, I would guess. And,never with cast bullets. So, bullet hardness, softness, whatever--all are factors that affect grouping ability of the load, only. At least that's where my interest lays. When you start factoring in performance on game, I'm clueless. I agree about the thermostatic swing--I have no idea what it might be. I was considering putting my Lyman lead thermometer in the over, then quickly cnsidered the lens cover, and that I had no earthly idea how much temperature it would stand. Plus, just how accurate is the Lyman gauge? With a “Made in China” label on it, it's suspect to me. I just don't know. And, absent a good, (and expensive) Pyrometer, I'm shooting in the dark! HAR again!)

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 20 June 2012

If you want to maximize hardness, go as hot as you can without slumping and go as cold as you can as quickly as you can.

Some industrial hardening processes dump the product into sawdust cooled by liquid nitrogen. Ice water or iced saltwater are more commonly available at home.

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onondaga posted this 20 June 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=5098>billglaze:  The amount of swing in temperature of a gas kitchen oven is generally 20-30 degrees, An electric kitchen oven is usually a bit tighter. You don't need a terrific thermometer to see that wide of temperature swing at all.

Most drugstores, supermarkets and even Family Dollar and other discount stores sell kitchen oven thermometers for a few dollars. These would be adequate to give an idea oh how far the temperatures swings when your thermostat cycles.

Put the thermometer in a cold oven and set the oven to your desired temperature. Watch how far past your setting the oven goes on the thermometer before it cuts back and then watch how low the oven goes before it begins to cycle up again. It is best to keep the oven closed and have the thermometer in the oven close to the oven door glass window so you can see it  Oven light on helps also.

If your oven has no window the test is very impractical because you cannot see the thermometer without opening the door. Sitting and watching through the window gives a good picture of the wide swing going on.  The manufacturer may tell you what the swing typically is on a particular model. They are NOT small swings needing a lab thermometer to see.

My Sears Kenmore swings 15-25 degrees between peak and dip.

Gary

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pat i. posted this 20 June 2012

Don't see much sense in oven heat treating at 370 degrees. I'd have to believe you'd get the same results quenching from the mold. I use a toaster oven set at 450 degrees and get 33 BNH or so after an hour soak time and 12 hours set time. I also put the water bucket right in front of the oven door so it's a second or so from the oven into the bath, I think this is important. If you're going to HT a lot look around and find a good oven thermometer so you know what's REALLY going on and start looking at garage sales or Walmart for a cheap toaster oven. Best thing about the toaster oven is that you can use it in the garage and once you have your temp set you just unplug it and it's ready to go next time. Personally I don't like it when bullets stick together and throw those back in the pot. Had it happen and just turned the heat down a bit until it didn't. I doubt if the gun would know if the bullets were 33 or 32 BNH.

I'm also not big on dumping the bullets into the water, too big of a chance of damaging them that way IMHO. I found an old aluminum basket from a coffee pot and made a wire handle for it. I stand the bullets up in the basket, tightly packed, and dunk the whole thing into the water after they come out of the oven. I can only get about eighty 30 caliber bullets in the basket I have but it doesn't bother me and that's about my sitting in front of a hot pot of lead limit anyway.

Another thing I don't put much stock in is that ice water is any better than room temperature water for quenching. I leave my bucket out by my oven all summer long and just add to it when it starts getting low. Never saw a hardness difference no matter what. When I took a little community college machining course we HTed projects we made and just quenched then in a 35 gallon barrel of water they had sitting there, no ice involved. I've wondered if ice water would lead to a bigger vapor barrier around the bullet when first dunked and lead to soft spots and lower results but never wondered enough to try to find out because my system works for me.

Maybe hard bullets aren't best for every situation but up to this point I haven't found one. I either water drop or HT every bullet I shoot and have no problem. There's no way in hell I'm going to sit around for 2 weeks waiting for air cooled WWs to harden when I can either mold quench or oven HT and be shooting them the next day at velocities from 750 to 2600 fps. Not enough patience in my persona for that. For the 6mm I'd have to believe that the harder you can make the bullet the better off you'll be.

Finally as you've found out you don't have to sit around forever waiting for the bullets to get hard using either type of HT method. Overnight will do it just fine. I've read people suggesting that it takes up to 5 YEARS for a Hted bullet to reach full hardness which is a heaping pile of BS. I've cast and HTed bullets on a Friday morning and had them at the range shooting them at 2550 out of my 30x47 on Saturday. I have both an LBT and Saeco hardness tester so I know they were plenty hard.

Heat treating is just like everything else cast bullet related. Simple as can be made complicated by people who like to make a science project out of changing a light bulb.

Bill I don't know what 6mm cartridge you're shooting but when I was shooting my 6.5 PPC the thing wouldn't shoot without a P-Wad. A load of 4350 with the P-Wad shot about 1700 fps out of the 8 twist barrel and did alright. I was using a 170 grain bullet though.

 

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billglaze posted this 20 June 2012

What a great bunch of ideas. I'm going to withhold comment until I try them out, and see how they work for me. Then as they progress, I'll comment on this list. But, gentlemen, please believe me when I say I really appreciate the helpful ideas. I don't necessarily think I'll have the time to try all the ideas, but, be advised, they are all absolutely worthy of thought and consideration. This is a great list, and you folks are the greatest. Thanks. BTW: the 6mm under consideration is a 40XB Remington, bought by me ~1962, when I had a brief inspiration to try 300 meter Free Rifle. That's until a friend of mine, Jim Hill, (Olympic Siver Medalist) and Gary Anderson (head of Army Marksmanship unit, later of NRA) showed off their wares at Camp Perry. I decided that, at age 31 at the time, I had better try m;y talents in another direction!<G>

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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pat i. posted this 20 June 2012

One last comment that was learned the hard way and more than likely already known by you and everyone else in the world except me at the time. DON'T put the bullets in the oven until the temperature normalizes. Those ovens get mighty hot when they're getting up to temp.

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6pt-sika posted this 20 June 2012

I've never tried heat treating in an oven , I do however water quench a good many of my bullets for the 44 and 45 cals straight from the mold in a 5 gallon bucket of water. And so far they've done what I wanted on paper and living beings .

 

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Paul Pollard posted this 21 June 2012

Bill,

To use your Lyman thermometer, just drill a small hole in the top of your toaster oven and set the stem through that. The door stays closed and it's easy to read the temperature. No worry about melting the face plate. The stem will rest right on top of the tray where the bullets are.

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 21 June 2012

suggest taking notes. A friend of mine heat treats and by varying the temperatures of the oven and the quench can bring the hardness to very predictable levels - but it takes making notes to repeat it several weeks downthe road.

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James Ball posted this 21 June 2012

Years ago i popped for a lab oven,made four trays which held aprox.1880 bullets.heat treeted 500 the first time.this oven holds temp.within 2 deg.A truck went buy the house,i had the temp close to slump.the vibration from truck going buy caused colapes of the bullets.started over this time with all four trays filled.bullets standing up inside 1/2 inch stainless mesh aprox.half wayup the bullet so they wouldnt fall over.redused the temp.to 415 deg and left alone in the preheated oven for 45 min.because the trays are aluminum i didnt put the trays in water.they were too hot.i even had special welding gloves made up at a local shoe shop.covered with kail glass good for 1800 deg direct contact.made two handles too lift the trays out of the oven and set on top of four fire bricks with a garden sprinkler in the middle.after i set the tray down i turned on the hose soaking the bottem of the tray cooling the bullets from the bottem up.Checked hardness within min.and every couple hrs the first day and every day for a week 7 days.Got good reading.Then tryed soaking bullets in dryice and rubbing alcohol for twenty min getting the bullet below zero.Bullets were as hard as the hubs of hell.shot good untill i reached velositys over 2380 then had bullets braking apart or cracking under pressure.Did this about 12 times and decieded it took to long.i like to shoot a lot so gave it up.If anyone is interested in my oven i still have it for sale make me an offer. 

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10 Spot Terminator posted this 27 June 2012

I recommend all who are curious about heat treating or water quenching bullets to increase the BHN of cast bullets check out the Los Angeles Silohuette Club website. They show in great detail both processes with elaborate test results that will show you what to expect with different temperatures for bullets starting with a specific BHN and the end BHN results. This is a great information website for bullet casters full of helpful articles. It is not an open chat forum for members such as this one and not intended to steer folks away from this site. Try it and prepare to be impressed.

10 Spot

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Bob 11B50 posted this 14 July 2012

I have read through most all of the posts here regarding heat treating lead bullets.  I have been quite surprised that I have not seen any one citing Bill McGraw, “Somewhere south of Chicago", citing his bullet hardening and tempering experiences.  I have followed his suggestions and have had excellent results and experiences. 

I would suggest that you check the archives and Bill's writings.  Also, Bill Ferguson gave an outstanding method for checking the accuracy of your thermometer.

Bob 11B50

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