90 gr. SWC in 7.62X39 w/H.TightGroup light load wanted

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Last Post 25 May 2012

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onondaga posted this 27 April 2012

I have had good results using TightGroup in .223 Rem. with cast bullets at rim fire velocity. I also have a single shot 7.62X39 Remington Spartan that shoots well with cast heavier bullets at deer hunting velocities. Ideally I'd like to carry that Spartan with both heavy deer loads and small game loads when hunting. The scope for the Spartan has a vertical crosshair with a line of dots on it that would work well for 2 different loads. The .223 load with a 60 grain cast bullet uses 3.0 grains TiteGroup for 1160 fps. I'd like to utilize this powder for light loads in 7.62X39 Data is sketchy using Titegroup in the 7.62X39. I have only found one load on the net with a 150 gr. bullet and 8.0 grains TiteGroup with a velocity of 1100 fps. I have cast a bunch of the Lee TL314-90-SWC bullets in my Lyman #2 clone alloy.

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linoww posted this 27 April 2012

I shot many.314 RB loads with 2.0 of clays and also red dot in my Ruger #1 762 x 39.It was a 25 yard load only but shot about 1” at that distance.I doubt it was above 1000 fps though.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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onondaga posted this 28 April 2012

Hodgdon has not answered my question about a load for the 7.62X39 with the 90 gr. cast bullet at about 1160 fps with Hodgdon TiteGroup.

My bullets are sized .3125” for my rifle. That size has worked well with two other bullet weights and is good fit for my chrome lined barrel that slugs just under .310” G to G. I can feel this bullet size just contacting the throat when loading the rifle.

Gary

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CBA Member

Duane Mellenbruch posted this 28 April 2012

Have you considered using the cleaning rod method to determine the overall length of the cartridge with this particular bullet fully in contact with the beginning of the rifling? No jump and fully centered in the throat? Not saying it would be better than guessing at the correct depth, but might be a good place to start. Duane

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onondaga posted this 28 April 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=55>Duane Mellenbruch:

Yes, I did that and the MAX LOA indicated is 2.040” for this bullet in my rifle . That is so long that only part of the base driving band is seated at that length. That would seem like not enough case grab on the bullet for me and run-out with such shallow seating would be easy to cause with incidental finger pressure. That would be fine for bench shooting but this will be a fielded squirrel load.

However the bullet does contact the throat due to the diameter and is stable in the chamber before the forcing cone area into the barrel. It is an odd little bullet for the cartridge, but I have high hopes.

Gary

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CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 29 April 2012

Sounds like a loong throat. If it' gets too frustrating try the Lee CTL-160-R. Fits my H&R 7.62x39 good and shoots good too. I may try it in the single shot postal match.

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onondaga posted this 29 April 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=2514>tturner53:

Thanks, I have the Lee CTL-312-160-2R. It shoots great but is too pointy for a hunting bullet. This little 90 grain SWC is the one I want to get shooting at 22 RF velocities for small game.

I also have a honed out to .3125” Lee C309-150-F that I use for Deer at 2162 fps with AA2230 It shoots wonderful:

This is all that was left of a very nice Black Squirrel last fall after a head shot with the 7.62X39 and the 150 gr FNGC deer load. I actually lost about 5 inches of hide in the front end of this large Black Squirrel with a dead center head shot at 50 yards . We really prefer more skin and I want to get the 90 grain SWC working at rim-fire velocity.

Gary

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CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 29 April 2012

Ed Harris has written an article that is widely published on cbs in military rifles and covers the little 7.62x39 in it. His “100 yard small game and target” load uses 150-160 gr. bullets and “no more than 4 gr. of the fast burning powders...” in a 7.62x39. Such as Bullseye, WW231, Red Dot, etc. If it's ok with the 150s it should be safe with a 90 gr. bullet. He points out the heavier bullets are more accurate, even for a 50 yd. small game load. I also use AA2230c for my upper end stuff in the little Russian, great powder. Maybe the more accurate 'pointy' bullet would do less damage on a squirrels head and leave some hide to work with. Dead's dead.

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onondaga posted this 29 April 2012

That big pointy CTL-312-160-2R will go sub-sonic with 8 grains TiteGroup and It will be tried if I can't get the little 90 gr. SWC shooting well. It will also be very easily recognized as not being the 150 grain flat-nose deer bullet. That easy recognition in the field is important for a single shot rifle shooting 2 different loads.

I could go slow with the 150 grain FNGC but they would be to easy to mistake or get mixed with deer loads.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 01 May 2012

I tried the Spartan 7.62x39 rifle with the 80 grain SWC with 6 grains Titegroup and the CTL312-160-2R with 8 grains TiteGroup at the range today.

Neither load would group less than 1 foot at 25 yards. Not very pleased! Targets are too embarrassing to post pictures.

On the bright side my 1903A3 shot 2 groups less than 1 inch at 50 yards and one group 2.4 inches at 100 yards with Military open sights.

Gary

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 01 May 2012

I think that 6 grains of TiteGroup is way too much in the 7.62x39 with an 80-gr. Bullet. I use 3.5 to 4 grs. of Bullseye with the 88-gr. NEI #82 in the .30-30, try cutting your charge of Titegroup in HALF and start over in a clean barrel with SOFT lead, lightly lubricated with Lee Liquid Alox.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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onondaga posted this 01 May 2012

Thanks Ed, I'll give that a try. I been just guessing on this one and was surprised on the bang volume at the range too.

I still haven't heard back from Hodgdon.

Gary

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 01 May 2012

Only question is whether TiteGroup will “light off” reliably in such light charges. I know that 231 will, and don't expect TiteGroup to be alot different, except, perhaps faster, which is a GOOD thing in this case. Please do some charge establishment over a chronograph as you check groups and post your results... Curious minds want to know! You have a subject for a great Fouling Shot article here.

My buddy Bill Bender has been using the 88-gr. NEI #82 which I use in .32 ACP and 7.62x25 in a 98k Mauser rebarreled to 7.62 NATO and has been getting fine results with 5 grs. of Bullseye or 4 grs. of Clays, groups under an inch at 50 yards with low noise. No crack, just a ~pop!

I have found 4 grains of Bullseye works with the light bullets (120-grs. or less, such as Saeco #322, Ideal #3118, NEI #82) in any case from the 7.62x39 to the '06, but you must use SOFT lead, even wheelweights are a bit on the too hard side. I use 1:25 tin/lead or 50-50 wheelweights and plumber's lead.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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onondaga posted this 02 May 2012

Ed,

The Hodgdon web site mentions that TiteGroup works well with “tiny charges” in the .357 Mag. That is a pretty confident statement from Hodgdon and is the particular reason I went out and got a pound of it. It has been working well in .223 for me with 3 grains and a 60 grain bullet. Thank you for your suggestions.

Gary

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onondaga posted this 04 May 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=207>Ed Harris:

I'm curious about your recommendation to cast soft bullets. I know at 1150 fps the pressure will be fine for soft alloy and I will get around to casting some . For now I have 515 of the 90 grain SWC bullets already cast in #2 alloy. I certainly would rather use them than put them back in the pot. There was no leading with the loads I tried so far and I'm sure they fit tight.

Why do you think the soft lead would be so better?

My mined range berm lead I have cast to ingots test 7.4 BHN. with the Lee kit. I think that is close to as soft as you are suggesting. I have plenty of that.

Turkey season just opened ! So I have that on my calendar now also.

Gary

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Jeff Michel posted this 04 May 2012

How much should I be concerned with the cartridge case becoming shorter with the loads that are being suggested? Thank you, Jeff

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onondaga posted this 04 May 2012

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=2222>Jeff Michel:

I'm doing what has been recommended By Ed Harris and others. Either segregate the cases that are light charged and fire-form them with heavy charges when they get short or load them with full charges every third loading or so. This has been working for me and my cases have not shortened with rotating the loading to heavier full charges every third loading.

My loading routine always includes a case length check with the Lee Zip Trim after sizing/de-prime and I can easily see length changes. I don't have to measure it because I can so easily see it with the Lee Zip Trim to decide if it is time to separate a particular case for a full charge loading cycle.. I visually make the decision when cases appear more than .010-.015” short. That is easy for me to just see it.

Jeff, I also believe the case shortening effect is effected by chamber fit and firing pin or hammer spring strength. It is likely that rifles designed for ammo with Russian primers have a pretty hard strike to the primer. Russian rifles and military rifles probably shorten the cases the most with these light charges and get harder pounding forward of the cases when firing.

My Remington Spartan 7.62X39 is a Russian made import but as part of the trigger lightening work I have done on it, the hammer spring has been shortened one full turn. Hopefully, this has lessened the case shortening effect of my rifle to at least the same effect as that of American rifles.

Gary

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Ed Harris posted this 12 May 2012

onondaga wrote: http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=207>Ed Harris:

I'm curious about your recommendation to cast soft bullets.... For now I have 515 of the 90 grain SWC bullets already cast in #2 alloy. I certainly would rather use them than put them back in the pot. There was no leading with the loads I tried so far and I'm sure they fit tight. Why do you think the soft lead would be so better?

My mined range berm lead I have cast to ingots test 7.4 BHN. with the Lee kit. I think that is close to as soft as you are suggesting. I have plenty of that. No. 2 alloy is harder than necessary for light plainbased loads below 20,000 psi. Unless bullets fit the throat exactly they will lead because pressure will be too low to upset them.

Factory swaged lead bullets are about 8 BHN, and your backstop salvage should be fine.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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onondaga posted this 25 May 2012

I tried Ed Harris recommendation of reducing charges of TiteGroup to 1/2 of what I had tried. The 90 gr SWC in the 7.62X39 is flying well and grouping 1 ” at 50 yards with 3.1 grains TiteGroup! My chrono is out on loan and my camera died Turkey hunting last weekend or you would see target pictures here and verified fps readings. The new load does sound like it has a subsonic report instead if a sharp sonic crack report.

Point of impact is 3 inches lower than my deer loads with the same rifle at 50 yards. Interesting about the Low V loads in X39 compared to my Ruger 10/22, 22RF. when sighted in at 50 yards , my Ruger impacts 6 inches low at 100 yarde . This X39 Low V load sighted in at 50 yards impacts 14 inches low at 100 yards. The pokey load may be pokier than my estimation of 1000 fps. I'll find out when I get My chrono back.

I'd like a trajectory similar to a 22RF with my Low V, X39 load in development, 14 inches is a lot of drop.