melting cu with sn and or pb

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  • Last Post 26 March 2013
parkerhale1200 posted this 11 April 2012

Recently i got from a friend of mine, a little electric melting oven, withs is capable to melt stuff at temperatures of 2200F/1470K max

copper has a melting point of 1350K, brons (cu/sn) has a lower melting point, but there are two metals forming one alloy, and i think if i put more low-point melting metals in it that i can melt it on my gasstove.?.(50%cu and 50%pb??)

Is it possible that i melt cu with pb and sn or only sn and then with pb, so i can cast with it, so that i wont have to use antimony (or tin), and end up with good hard and accurate bullets?

 

With best regards Parkerhale

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runfiverun posted this 12 April 2012

copper changes the matrix of the alloy but doesn't add that much hardness. you have to have tin in the alloy to keep the copper in suspension. usually 3% tin to keep 1% copper in the alloy. you are limited by the casting temp as to how much copper you can use to get good boolits as the copper will start to cool in the stream between the pot and the mold causing fillout amd alloy problems. 1% copper is usually enough to form helixes on the surface of the alloy and avoid casting problems. i would suggest an alloy of 1% copper 3% tin and 3+% antimony. you can go to a higher concentration of up to 3% copper but you will need 10% tin to do so. and a higher casting temp which will cause oxidation of the tin on the alloys surface. copper is a good alloy partner but is not the answer to all the questions. it brings as many problems as solutions.

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parkerhale1200 posted this 20 April 2012

Shoot thats to bad.I thought i had something good. Thanks runfiverun

Cant i cast pure copper bullets???(-: Or do i need a special mould for this, and if so, of what sort of material would that mould be

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runfiverun posted this 21 April 2012

a mehanite mold really isn't up to the task of handling the melting point of copper. and aluminum would be totally destroyed by the process. if you really want copper bullets your best bet would be to look into jewelry making for the process. you could use a regular boolit mold to cast the wax for a lost wax process. then do a wet sand pack and pour the copper. you'd have to deal with a sprue and such but that would be your best bet. and the lube grooves would be beneficial in a cast copper bullet.

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runfiverun posted this 21 April 2012

forgot. gary a member here airc has jewelry making knowledge he might be of more help.

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Pigslayer posted this 21 April 2012

I read an article (somewhere)about the Lyman #1 alloy which contains copper & allows near jacketed velocities. If I can just remember where I read it.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 21 April 2012

Pigslayer wrote: I read an article (somewhere)about the Lyman #1 alloy which contains copper & allows near jacketed velocities. If I can just remember where I read it.

Perhaps you are thinking of Ideal #1?

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=8011&forum_id=57&highlight=Lyman+%231+alloy>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8011&forumid=57&highlight=Lyman+%231+alloy

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Pigslayer posted this 21 April 2012

Duane Mellenbruch wrote: Pigslayer wrote: I read an article (somewhere)about the Lyman #1 alloy which contains copper & allows near jacketed velocities. If I can just remember where I read it.

Perhaps you are thinking of Ideal #1?

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=8011&forum_id=57&highlight=Lyman+%231+alloy>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8011&forumid=57&highlight=Lyman+%231+alloy Yes, that is it. Thanks.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Lee Wiggins posted this 23 April 2012

Have you tried Foundry Type Metal? 15%tin 23% ant 62% lead,and a little copper BHN 30, probably much harder if water quenched from the mold. Download the Alloy Calculator from this site. The stuff has a bit of a purple tint due to the copper. Years ago I tried casting with a bottom pour pot using foundry type and the bullets were full of bubbles inside, I gave up. 2 days ago I tried again using the Lyman walnut ladle held against the hole in the spew cutter and rotated mold and ladle together into vertical. It cast beautiful bullets with the stuff.Bullets are much lighter however. In a mold I made bullets in straight WW weigh 216 gr In foundry 187.5 Gr. Running them thru my Lyman 45 lube sizer feels like I am sizing brass bullets.And they were air cooled and sized 1 hr after casting. Lee Wiggins

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parkerhale1200 posted this 18 May 2012

Thanks guys, I think i wont experiment with cu and lead, just like runfiverun said: copper is a good alloy partner but is not the answer to all the questions. it brings as many problems as solutions.But it would be a nice idea if it would work.

And to cast cu bullets that a very different story, it would be easier to turn them on a lathe. Foundry type metal: if i have some luck, in nov or in dec, im getting maybe 4000 pounds of it, if im that lucky

best regards and thanks again guys, Parkerhale.

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Lee Wiggins posted this 18 May 2012

I just tried casting with straight foundry type metal. It cast beautiful bullets and hard as heck. Shooting them was another story. 1st 5 shot group over 1 in at 100 yard , 2nd group 2 in , 3rd group 6 in. This was from a rifle that at times will shoot a two tenths in group. Bore was leaded badly, cleaned and backed way down on the powder charge and fired another 5 shot group ,5 in group and leaded again. It didn't occur to me at the time to kick the charge way up in an attempt to bump the bullet up at ignition. will give that a try later . I did notice that the first shot out of a clean bore went right where it should on group 1 and 4. I had used the foundry type many years ago to make an alloy equal to lino by mixing it with WW. That alloy was 4 parts FT and 5 parts WW. It cast well and shot well. According to the alloy calculator I downloaded from this site my 4-5 alloy is 6.81% tin,11.89% antimony, 81.31% lead , bhn 22. Lino is 4 ,12 ,84 bhn 22. Close enough I guess.

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Pigslayer posted this 18 May 2012

Lee Wiggins wrote: I just tried casting with straight foundry type metal. It cast beautiful bullets and hard as heck. Shooting them was another story. 1st 5 shot group over 1 in at 100 yard , 2nd group 2 in , 3rd group 6 in. This was from a rifle that at times will shoot a two tenths in group. Bore was leaded badly, cleaned and backed way down on the powder charge and fired another 5 shot group ,5 in group and leaded again. It didn't occur to me at the time to kick the charge way up in an attempt to bump the bullet up at ignition. will give that a try later . I did notice that the first shot out of a clean bore went right where it should on group 1 and 4. I had used the foundry type many years ago to make an alloy equal to lino by mixing it with WW. That alloy was 4 parts FT and 5 parts WW. It cast well and shot well. According to the alloy calculator I downloaded from this site my 4-5 alloy is 6.81% tin,11.89% antimony, 81.31% lead , bhn 22. Lino is 4 ,12 ,84 bhn 22. Close enough I guess.

I think that I might try your mix . . . just for fun. Thanks for the info! Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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303PV posted this 19 May 2012

If you want copper or bronze bullets you can use a CNC lathe or use the process the French were using for producing the bullet for the 8x50R Lebel.

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parkerhale1200 posted this 20 May 2012

i wish a had a cnc lathe, i just have a normal lathe(450 pounds) I was wondering if i could not make a “copy mold", as a guidance's of some sort, to make the same over and over again.

but they had some serious machinery, im just a carpenter:P look at ammosmith and dont laugh, LOL, just wonder.

Best regards Parkerhale

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parkerhale1200 posted this 20 May 2012

ps when and IF i get the foundry type(4000 pounds) sorry no lino

i will be in need for recipes, indeed, thanks for the warning, saves a lot of time and cleaning

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Lee Wiggins posted this 20 May 2012

Parkerhale 1200 See my post above. My 4-5 alloy can for all practical purposes be called Lino. If you can get 4000 lb of foundry type, all you need is 5000 lb of Wheel Weight and you will have the makings of 9000 lb of Lino.

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parkerhale1200 posted this 20 May 2012

:dude::wow::wow::wow:

this would be a life time supply, wowie

veral i want my mould!!LOL

Thanks

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technojock posted this 19 March 2013

I read somewhere (but I can't find it again) that adding babbit with a small percentage of copper to a mix contaminated with zinc will cure the casting problems of zinc in the mix. Any one else heard of this? I have about 40~50 pounds of wheel weights and I think I got one or 2 zinc ones in the mix. The ingots look ok but the bullets look like the have the chickenpox... I figure if I could save this mix, I'd toss in the one bar of babbit I have and melt them all together.

Tony

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RicinYakima posted this 19 March 2013

If it were I, I would consider using one ingot of questionable mix, well fluxed, with one oz. of babbit. Once tried to save 50 pounds of zinc contaminated alloy and still ended up with 100 of stuff that became keel weight on a sailboat. FWIW, Ric

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badgeredd posted this 24 March 2013

There is a fellow on Castboolits that has said one can remove the zinc from alloy by adding sulfur to the contaminated alloy. I haven't tried it myself so I am only passing on a possible solution.

I have a batch of zinc contaminated bullet alloy that I intend on trying another method to remove zinc. From what I've read, one can add copper sulfate to the mix and the copper will replace the zinc in the alloy. I am told that one must do this in a well ventilated area because the fumes are pungent to say the least. I suspect the fumes may be nasty if one breathes them being they contain sulfur oxide.

Edd

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technojock posted this 26 March 2013

Please post your results here if you try it.  I don't have a other use for this alloy other than bullet casting.  As it is now it's pretty much useless.

Tony

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badgeredd posted this 26 March 2013

When the weather here in Michigan decides to catch up with spring on the calender, I'll get myself out and try it. Actually I am thinking that since I have a goodly amount of zinc contaminated alloy to test methods on, I'll also get some sulfur from the garden supply to try too. Unfortunately, I melted nearly 100 pounds of WWs with some ingots that were given to me. WELL, the ingots had a large amount of zinc in them so now I've a large batch of ZN-Pb to clean up. I guess I should look at it as a leaning experience...but it does upset me to have to test out the ideas out of necessity.

Edd

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Uncle Russ posted this 26 March 2013

Gents; I just finished a long go around with bad material. Friend of mine, newbie to casting brought over close to 100 lbs of pipe organ lead. (?????) Smashed, looked, melted just like lead pipe. Melted the whole batch down into ingots and had a very large batch of dross left over. This was accomplished in a 50lb plumbers pot. Ingots had a metalic blue look to them.

Then trying to pour the real problems started. First few looked kinda rough and tested 5-6 on the SAECO tester. Added high tin solder to help fill out. Then more. Then more. Finally said “this is not working". Raised the temp and got down spout freeze. (raise-freeze?) Called Lee and followed their lead by rebuilding pot. New liner and spout. Nothing worked. Finally got smart and called Ric. Dumped the whole mess and returned to my old alloys and habits. Casting is once again FUN as it should be. Thanks Ric. Joe can have his lead pipe back.

A fun side line. While emailing customer service at LEE I commented to the on line person that answering my mail on a Saturday was a neat treat and that I wanted his name so I could tell management that he needed a raise in pay for his fine work. His answer “This is Andy Lee". Neat huh?

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