The LIE of the 3 shot group!

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  • Last Post 03 April 2013
RicinYakima posted this 03 January 2012

OK guys, I am really frosted now, so if you don't want to listen to me on my soap box, move on now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Reading my January copy of “Precision Shooting” tonight and believe it or not, one of the writers is shilling the new FN/Winchester bolt gun. So, it and he shoots 6 three shot groups, averages the best three and publishes that as the accuracy of the rifle. “..so a 1/2 inch relates to 2 inches at 400 yards, good enough for hunting".  BS!

So lets go to the “one shot group". A white bulls-eye of 0.01” in a black circle of 1.5". Shoot only one shot at the target. With Wally Enga's computer program, measure the distance from the bulls-eye to the closest edge of the bullet hole. If the bullet hole pushes out the white bulls-eye, it is a perfect shot (you can hit a fly's butt at 1250 yards cause you can't miss). Now you get 20 shots to get a perfect for every box of ammo you write about. If you miss the white bulls-eye, the computer program will measure to the closest edge. Now you can take the three best shots from the box, divide by three and get your string measure for group. Records will fall!

Now I feel better!

 

Ric

 

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Pigslayer posted this 03 April 2013

Ed Harris wrote: RicinYakima wrote: Is it just me, or does all of those old Hercules powders have a unique (:D) smell for each brand?

Thanks to Col. Harrison, Frank Kurek and Frank Marshall, I have had the opportunity to use old Pyro, MR15, HiVel#2, HiVel#3, Infallible, Sharpshooter, Lighting and SR80.

All of those old powders smelled wonderful and had a different distinctive character of their own, not like powders today. I'm not sure what the secret was, but if somebody could capture those aromas and combine them with old leather, sperm oil and a hint of whiskey and tobacco smoke he would surely have Slattery's Pool Hall No.9

What a wonderful analogy Ed! :dude:

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 03 April 2013

RicinYakima wrote: Is it just me, or does all of those old Hercules powders have a unique (:D) smell for each brand?

Thanks to Col. Harrison, Frank Kurek and Frank Marshall, I have had the opportunity to use old Pyro, MR15, HiVel#2, HiVel#3, Infallible, Sharpshooter, Lighting and SR80.

All of those old powders smelled wonderful and had a different distinctive character of their own, not like powders today. I'm not sure what the secret was, but if somebody could capture those aromas and combine them with old leather, sperm oil and a hint of whiskey and tobacco smoke he would surely have Slattery's Pool Hall No.9

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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jhalcott posted this 03 April 2013

Recently I watched 2 gents “sighting” in their rifles for a hunting trip. Both guns were fired off high quality benchrests. The 3 shot groups were respectable at about 1 1/2". I asked how well they shot in a HUNTING situation?? Groups opened to about 6” at the same 100 yards.(3 shots)from a siting position and larger from a standing position. MY custom built Varmint rifle will put 5 or 10 shots into 3/4” @ 100 yards all the time.My DEER rifle ,off the shelf Rem 700-30-06, will keep it's shots under 2” with a 3x9 scope.This in varying weather and geographic conditions. A scope adjustment MAY have to be made when going from Maine to Arizona,but that's to be expected. On THIS site(CBA) I thought we would be talking about CAST projectiles.! I do not under stand the NEED for 10 shot groups in fun shooting. I shoot an occassional 10 shot group, usually when I am burning up OLD ammo.

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RicinYakima posted this 03 April 2013

I was given this powder about 10 years ago, and it appears to have been from just prior to WWII. Like you, I loaded all of the old data loads, too. Considering the other powders that were available, it was very good stuff with a wide pressure range of clean consistent burning. Is it just me, or does all of those old Hercules powders have a unique (:D) smell for each brand?

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Ed Harris posted this 03 April 2013

Last HiVel #2 I had was gifted to me by Frank Kurek when I went to the CBA Nationals at Council Cup Range in Wapwallopen, PA back in my NRA days. I duplicated many of the old classic .30-'06 loads, also shot cast with it and used the data for several articles at the time.

Frank Marshall said that I should have captured all the smoke and put it up in cans and sold it.

"Perfume powder” he called it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 03 April 2013

Charger,

You seem to have missed the whole point of this thread. Your effect, one shot, one hunk of warm meat, is only possible because the rifle/cartridge/shooter combination could cause a bullet to strike a vital part of the animal. Nothing against hunting, but for me it is pretty boring and not something I want to spend my time doing.

Those of us who are more curious want to know why and how the rifle/cartridge/shooter combination. We can only do that buy putting permanent holes in paper. “Sighting-in” means nothing to us because you learn nothing from it.

So let us agree to disagree. A one shot group is fine for a hunter, but it doesn't say anything about why and how things work.

Best wishes,

Ric

p.s. Ed, I have about 3/4 pound of Hi-Vel #2, worth its weight in silver, I would think.

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72coupe posted this 03 April 2013

Everyone is out of Hivel #2. I do know some people that would like to find some though.

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Ed Harris posted this 03 April 2013

No cast loads planned...... But I may shoot some in my own ” parts gun” with Criterion barrel, after having shot WW2 era DM42, DEN43, BallM2, LC43 APM2, and FA34 Ball M1.

Will probably do #311299 with 30 grs. of RL-7, because I am out of HiVel #2!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Uncle Russ posted this 03 April 2013

Now come on Ed.

Don't tease us. Keep us posted as you do your work (work?).

Then give us the facts, nothing but the facts.

:wav3:

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Ed Harris posted this 03 April 2013

In April I am assisting Dennis Carlini in targeting, getting sight dope and recording a record book on each of the M1 Garand rifles in his collection. Each week we are shooting four rifles. He has an example of each WW2 producer, the postwar and Korean era producers, each type of cal..30 National Match and 7.62 NATO match conversions done by the Navy, Marines and Air Force, as well as CMP rifles returned from Greece and Denmark. 24 in all.

We plan to shoot Ball M2 in the issue grade guns, and M72 Match or M118 in the match grade guns. The best four issue grade and match rifles will be shot again with Sierra match bullet handloads.

Each gun will be fired first one 8-rd. clip for function and sight adjustment, then three eight-round clips marking each string, and recentering to capture individual targetz plus 24-shot composite at 200 yards. Then x, y coordinates of each shot group, calculate CI and RSd for each rifle.

That should give a fair idea of what the M1 does, no fooling around. One day may write it all up.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Pigslayer posted this 02 April 2013

onondaga wrote: I'm checking in on this because I believe there is a valid reason for a resurgence of a certain kind of shooter that likes and relies on 3 shot groups. The cost of ammo components is encouraging these shooters to use 3 shot groups. The main reason for the attraction to the 3 shot groups is that these are the same shooters that are:

Cheapskates

Gary

Gary, I find that for one to call anyone ( in this case ) a cheapskate is simply ” contempt prior to investigation “'. I'm a hunter & in that has never, never taken over one shot to take a game animal AND have many a deer to my credit. The bulk of which were shot “on the run” as we drive our deer & post watchers. I've never seen a deer or bear sit still for the 10 shot group, nor rabbit, nor pheasant, nor grouse . . . Not even a squirrel. But then I guess . . . paper is hard to kill for some & not very filling at the dinner table. So, all you ten shot group guys keep harvesting your paper while I fill my freezer with one shot. LOL

Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Pigslayer posted this 02 April 2013

tlkeizer wrote: Greetings,

     Sometimes you just have to pay your dues, so here is my 2 cents worth.  While you guys are writing, I decided to go shooting.  Of course, up here in Alaska that meant waiting for the temp to get above zero, and the fresh snow to quit falling which gave me only enough to get just above my knees (I am only 6'3” tall, so the snow wasn't that deep compared to Florida).  I am including a photo, if it gets attached, with your choice of a 3,4, or 5 shot group.  I kind of like my 3 shot group if you take the smallest to largest going from 3 to 5.  Even my 4-shot group is nice, the 5-shot group might not take a caribou out to 200 yards, but then again I am using a trapdoor 45-70, all original Springfield Model 1873, fired only 88 times for the last at least 63 years.  The extra shot is a different load, but if you wish you can include it in an ad hoc 6-shot group.  When it warms up enough, and I get enough cartridges loaded, I will see about a 10-shot group.  In the meantime, how about some pictures to go with your feelings?  Now, these were shot at 50 yards as I just don't feel like long treks in snow without meat at the end of the walk right now, and as the rifle is old and my eyes are half as old, and I have yet to shoot a caribou over 100 yards, I am satisfied with this for now.  As for shooting skeet, the only time I ever went 100 straight was with the .410, in a 28-guage event none the less.  Otherwise, the best I did was a few 98's in 12 and 20, with mostly 92's + or -, with an occaisional upper 70's (and poor grades in spelling).  Enjoy the photo to go with your groupings.  I did shoot a one-shot group once that was .459 on a plain sheet of paper.If the photo does not come through, oh well, maybe next time..>

TK

 

My kind of shooter! :dude:

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Chargar posted this 02 April 2013

3 shot groups are just fine for sighting in a hunting rifle, but will deliver no meaningful information about the accuracy potential of the rifle or the load.

On the plus side, few hunters are interested in ultimate accuracy potential of the rifle and the load.

On the negative side, that doesn't belong in a journal entitled “Precision Shooting” because it isn't.

I find nothing to get spun up about. If, I got spun up about every piece of nonsense I have read and heard over the years about guns, I would have screwed self into the ground many years ago.

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RicinYakima posted this 02 April 2013

I was out practicing today with two other CBA members and two potential members. Below is my 10 shot score target. Remington 03A3, Lyman #311284, 16.0 grains of A2400, 1475 f/s. This is about what the rifle and I can shoot, a 2 inch 10 shot group. One out of every 40 or so will be out the full two inches. The lower right three holes are 13/32” for a 3 shot group potential. There is also a 3/4” 5 shot group potential in there. It could just as easily been the first three shots of .300” or the first three shots have been 2.00".

I am still of the opinion that shot hits are random within the cone of bullet travel. With a good rifle and good bullets they should be denser toward the center but you will still have “outliers” as some people are now using that term.

FWIW, Ric

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tlkeizer posted this 02 April 2013

Greetings,

     Sometimes you just have to pay your dues, so here is my 2 cents worth.  While you guys are writing, I decided to go shooting.  Of course, up here in Alaska that meant waiting for the temp to get above zero, and the fresh snow to quit falling which gave me only enough to get just above my knees (I am only 6'3” tall, so the snow wasn't that deep compared to Florida).  I am including a photo, if it gets attached, with your choice of a 3,4, or 5 shot group.  I kind of like my 3 shot group if you take the smallest to largest going from 3 to 5.  Even my 4-shot group is nice, the 5-shot group might not take a caribou out to 200 yards, but then again I am using a trapdoor 45-70, all original Springfield Model 1873, fired only 88 times for the last at least 63 years.  The extra shot is a different load, but if you wish you can include it in an ad hoc 6-shot group.  When it warms up enough, and I get enough cartridges loaded, I will see about a 10-shot group.  In the meantime, how about some pictures to go with your feelings?  Now, these were shot at 50 yards as I just don't feel like long treks in snow without meat at the end of the walk right now, and as the rifle is old and my eyes are half as old, and I have yet to shoot a caribou over 100 yards, I am satisfied with this for now.  As for shooting skeet, the only time I ever went 100 straight was with the .410, in a 28-guage event none the less.  Otherwise, the best I did was a few 98's in 12 and 20, with mostly 92's + or -, with an occaisional upper 70's (and poor grades in spelling).  Enjoy the photo to go with your groupings.  I did shoot a one-shot group once that was .459 on a plain sheet of paper.If the photo does not come through, oh well, maybe next time..>

TK

 

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onondaga posted this 02 April 2013

I'm checking in on this because I believe there is a valid reason for a resurgence of a certain kind of shooter that likes and relies on 3 shot groups. The cost of ammo components is encouraging these shooters to use 3 shot groups. The main reason for the attraction to the 3 shot groups is that these are the same shooters that are:

Cheapskates

Gary

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billwnr posted this 02 April 2013

I had a CBA Heavy gun named “Christine” that during load development fired 3 shots into a .3” group. I figured that was suspect as the crosshairs weren't pointing on the first two shots for the third shot.

Fired a confirmation group and it was decidedly larger.

Gun was named “Christine” as in the movie. Someone else has it now.

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jhalcott posted this 02 April 2013

I like several 3 shot groups, noting WHERE #1 hit on each. Preferrably on separate days. I've NEVER seen consecutive 3 shot groups cluster into ONE hole. Often the SAME target will have a “group” for each day,separated by less than an inch. Do two half inch groups one half inch apart qualify as half inch or ONE INCH?

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6pt-sika posted this 15 September 2012

Uncle Russ wrote: (Well la de da !

Skeet or trap shooters shoot strings of 100 in a match .

6 point)

But even you will have to admit their groups are larger!

:nawnawnaw:

I dunno 20 years ago when I was decent at shooting the shotgun games , the way my 410 loads turned targets into black clouds kinda led me to believe they weren't as “wide” as most folks would want ;)

100 straight with a 410 was one of two things I really wanted in the skeet game that eluded me !

My best registered score with the 410 was a lone 99 and many many 98's !

And since I never achieved that one I was never gonna achieve my other goal of 400 straight for a weekend of skeet . Sad to say my best with that was only a lone 395 with many many in the 392-394 range .

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Uncle Russ posted this 15 September 2012

(Well la de da !

Skeet or trap shooters shoot strings of 100 in a match .

6 point)

But even you will have to admit their groups are larger!

    :nawnawnaw:

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