Potential new Postal event-Practical Pistol

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Tom Acheson posted this 02 October 2011

There has been an ongoing discussion on the possibilities of a new Postal event along with suggestions for guns allowed, shooting distances and positions, sights, etc. This started out as a surplus military handgun event but “grew” to consider other guns.

IF the event were to be configured as seen below, please respond to the poll.

Allowed handguns:

<>Out of the box production, NOT from the maker's custom shop, no alterations such as after market springs, action parts, barrels, grips, etc. <>Fixed sights <>Barrel length of 4” for revolvers and 5 1/2” for semi-autos <>50 foot shooting distance <>10-shots, with one magazine or cylinder change required, 5-shots per <>Offhand, one or two hand hold, shooter's optionIf this can be tried, the first year the semi-autos and revolvers will be scored together. Should the turnout be strong, and one type or another is extremely dominant we might consider separating the action types. And if enough military surplus guns are entered we could separate those out also, depending on scores and headcount of entries.

The target will be one that the CBA Postal program already uses to keep costs down and measure the interest. The smallest black center target now being used (I think) is the 100-yard small bore rifle target. It has an 8” dia. center (7 ring). Too big? we'll see. In 2012 it will be a one time event. Again, if interest is there we can open it up in 2013 to be a seasonal thing where we shoot once a month for 4-months. There would then be an agg winner(s) in addition to a monthly winner(s).

About the grips...many shooters personalize their guns with custom grips. In the spirit of keeping this a “production gun” event, grips offered as an optional catalog item by the gun maker for the gun being used, will be allowed.

Let's see what happens.

Tom

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Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
Duane Mellenbruch posted this 04 October 2011

Good Grief Tom, the non response is deafening.  Guys, if you have no interest, this is perhaps a great way to show it.  But with only one vote being cast showing interest we might as well all consider this a non-event. 

Tom, thanks for starting the poll, it was a good idea to gauge interest and show who would likely participate so the BOD could consider the course.  Looks like it is a dead topic.   Duane

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 04 October 2011

I am afraid so.

I am planning to use my S&W 686 in the Hunter Class, off a rest not bad at 50 yards. I was thinking of trying one of my S&W Victorys but at 50 yards with fixed sights... well I will take it the range with me tomorrow and see what I can do, I don't hold much hope for it.

I had been thinking of getting 2 entry's one for each the 686 and one for the Victory but the Victory is not going to be competive but I will try it.

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CB posted this 05 October 2011

I don't have any handguns that fit the criteria. My revolvers all have adjustable sights, except for a J frame. My 1911s all have aftermarket sights, and have had trigger work. Everything has aftermarket grips, you see my issues. Also, this is the first time I've seen the post.

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 05 October 2011

anachronism The J frame would be perfect for this shoot, 50 feet that gun would fit right in.

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CB posted this 06 October 2011

A 2 inch J frame against 5 inch 1911s? I at least need to be somewhat competitive.

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 06 October 2011

ah ha, I was thinking 4 inch, it is a snubby, yes then I agree with you. Although with my shooting you could beat me with it! Also so far from what I have seen there isn't much interest.

Luckily at my home club in Mass we have Military Pistol shoots which are a blast!

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PETE posted this 06 October 2011

Sounds like it might be an interesting match. The only gun I have that might qualify is a Colt Army Special in .32//20 WCF. I'd have to come up with some factory grips tho. Shouldn't be much of a problem to find. I didn't see any mention of caliber restrictions. Are there any?

These and maybe some other problems might be why many aren't responding to the poll. If I can find some factory grips and the caliber is OK then you can count me in. Otherwise.......

Pete

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 06 October 2011

To my mind any caliber shooting cast bullets would be ok. It would be out of the box production, if the grips were offered in the manufacturers catalog they would be allowed. If we get enough of a response then we would probably split the classes, revolver/pistol next year or maybe even this year if there were enough. I was shooting 50 feet with a Sigma 9mm the other day, my group was the size of the target 8 1/2 x 11 LOL, I need to be in the barn to hit the side, but I have fun!

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PETE posted this 06 October 2011

Ben,

Well when my gun was made I don't think Pachmyr grips were available. :-) If Tom says the caliber is OK I'll start looking for factory grips.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 07 October 2011

Pete,

Was out getting sight settings for my 74 Sharps at NRA rifle silhouette targets yesterdaay so got behind on e-mails. Choice of chambering (caliber) isn't a qualification. The only ammunition interest the CBA would have is that it be a centerfire round that uses a lead projectile.

Tom

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PETE posted this 07 October 2011

Thanks Tom, will start looking for some factory grips then. Will mark down a “yes” on your poll with the provision of course that I can find the grips.

Anyone have any idea where I might find a set of grips? A seller at one of the gun shows shows up once in a while but might be all Winter before he'll be there again.

Pete

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 07 October 2011

I have extra S&W Victory grips, but don't think they would fit and wouldn't be correct for a Colt.

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Brodie posted this 08 October 2011

I would love to participate in such a match, but my problem is the same as many others; I don't have handguns that fit the criteria.  My 1911 has been acurrsed, trigger work, target sights, etc.  My revolvers all have adjustable sights and barrels longer than 4 inches except a ruger 38 LCR . 

I think that if you folks want to hold a practical pistol match you are going to have to write rules that reflect the modern handgun.  It is fun to play with these old collectors arms, but face it not a lot of the members have access to them or a great interest in them.  The number of responses on your poll should give you a good example. Brodie

B.E.Brickey

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PETE posted this 08 October 2011

Well, lucky me..... Got digging around and came up with a Colt SAA in .44/40 and 5 1/2” barrel. So guess I'm in if this match flies.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 08 October 2011

I expected a response similar to Brodie's sooner. He makes some good points. 

Lurking behind the polling effort was an effort to apply two items in exploring the potential for this type of Postal event.

Ø  Having been present at several CBA Board meetings where equipment rules are debated and voted on where much consternation develops as equipment rules are established, keeping this simple was thought to have broader appeal. At our club we host an annual First Time Silhouette Shooter's Clinic with the goal to clear some of the fog that so many convoluted equipment rules generate AND get a first time shooter to come out from behind the fence and actually step up and give it a try. For many years IHMSA (Intl. handgun Metallic Sil. Assn.) was able to hold true to a true “Production gun” category. They momentarily stepped in it when they tried an ill conceived gun retail price ceiling which prevented the then new Freedom Arms revolvers from being used in the Revolver category, forcing them to be in the Unlimited category. But eventually that stupidness was dropped. (The FA revolver now dominates the IHMSA Revolver category.) The Unlimited category is like the Cub Scout Pinewood Derby. You get a block of wood, two wooden axles and 4 wheels and nails. You have to keep it under a certain weight limit. The CBA's LRH and IHMSA's Unlimited are similar with the only major limitations being barrel length (15”) and weight (under 7-pounds). We should work towards a true Production gun equipment rule for our new “game”.

Ø  Speaking of games. At times it may seem to the “average” CBA member as if the CBA might have too much focus on the BR match program. The CBA is comprised of a lot more members who don't shoot the matches than who do. Some people are adverse to “competition”. And if they are tempted, they convince themselves that they don't want to get involved where they perceive it to be an equipment race or them being outgunned by another shooter who has this and that accessory. If we are going to tempt those CBA members who have resisted “competition” it has to be seen as simple and without any shooter having an equipment advantage if everyone abides by the “production gun” mindset. Want to jazz up the gun? Go ahead and have fun but you'll need to shoot in an existing Postal event. Let's try to offer something that the historically non-match CBA member/shooter might give a second thought towards about trying.

Off the soap box. 

Tom

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 09 October 2011

Pete has a Single Action 44/40 with a 5 1/2 barrel and another has a Webley with a 5 inch barrel and I have a 1917 with a 5 1/4 barrel.

I agree with Tom that we want this to be a simple as possible, Production guns with fixed sights(as issued/produced). Originally it was conceived as Military Issue, but it is now any production gun with fixed sights, such as the S&W Model 10 or the Colt Official Police, or the 1911 Government Model. We already have the hunter class that allows most anything with a very few restricions, weight, 10+ barrel and trigger pull, you can certainly shoot there is you have a rebored gun or adjusible sights, I am using my 686 with a 65 inch barrel in the Deer Hunter match.

Since this would be the first match and revolvers and pistols will compete in the same class, I propose that there be a single barrel length of 5 1/2 inches for both Revolvers and Pistols. That would simplify things although if you only had a snubby you might be at a disadvantage (although there is a guy at the club who shoots 1 inch groups with a snubby, while I struggle with 6 inch groups from a 5 inch barrel.

If this catches on we could do 4 classes, Revolvers 5 1/2 and under, and the second 3 1/2 inch and under. Pistols 5 1/2 and under and the second 3 1/2 and under (Walther PPK, which I love)

THis would not be a match for everyone, since some people don't like fixed sights but yoiu can pick up a cheap fixed sight revovler for less than 200 at most gun shows. Even in Mass we are not YET limited to how many guns we are allowed to have, although since we are required to have gun licenses and your getting one, or renewing one is totally up to the local Police Chief, if he decides you have too many he can and has refused to renew a license in which case you lose all your guns, no license no guns.

In fact there is a new proprosal in Mass, that is you buy a gun you have to notify the police within 24 hours that you bought it and you have to tell them exactly in your house you are keeping it, you also if you have more than 10 guns of all types have a “vault” as well as an electronic alarm professionally installed by a state approved alarm company and you have to give the police the codes and passwords for the alarm (you can always trust the police)

Sorry I got off track, I was trying to think which 10 guns I would keep if I had to get rid of the rest...

THIS NEW MATCH SHOULD BE A FUN MATCH, EASY TO ENTER and not an equipment race. all compete in the same class with the target scored rather than groups.

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CB posted this 09 October 2011

I feel that the majority of the revolvers out there in the hands of potential competitors will have adjustable sights. As I said before, my only fixed sight revolver is a 2 inch J frame. My other revolvers have adjustable sights, and have had light trigger work done. Does anybody even make a quality fixed sight revolver any more? For that matter, what is the difference between my Colt 1911 with Novak sights, and a factory Springfield or Kimber which offer the same sights, or near exact copies from the factory?

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 09 October 2011

Ruger makes the New Vaquero in .357 and .45, a Colt style SAA.

I am a Smith guy, belong to the S&W collectors association, anyhow Smith and Wesson makes a quality revolver. We won't mention the hundreds of thousands of the used ones out there but current production for fixed sights

Revolvers - all these are integral U channel sights built into the top strap Model 10 .38 Sp 4" Model 22 .45 ACP 5 1/4 inch Model 58 .41 Magnum 4" Model 64 .38 Sp 4" Snubby's Models 637 640 642 340 649 6389 442 637 438... Pistols - dovetail drift rear sights S&W 1911's a bunch S&W M&P series, .45 9mm .40's

On the factory Springfield, if it is a Government model with only the crude dovetail or a novak that has no adjustment screws, rear sight that has to drifted with a hammer that would be in this shoot.

My first thought had been the military / Model 10 / cowboy gun type fixed sights, the crude U built as integral to the top strap although even those can be adjusted by a file, although only once, but I don't see the problem with “fixed” sights of the drift type, you cannot drift them at the shoot.

I am going to try to drum up interest for a Military Handgun shoot with only Military Issue and replicas at my local club, the current military shoot they have allows me to use my Gold Cup National Match 1911, those are not military sights. But know how much interest I will get, sort of like here.

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Brodie posted this 09 October 2011

Allow me to make a correction; my Colt combat commander had fixed sights, but they are aftermarket.; the sights on my 36 navy cap and ball are origional, but the rear sight moves when the hammer goes down to fire thus it is not really a fixed sight.

I do not understand what the advantage of adjustable sights would be at 50 ft any way.  especially since most handguns come with adjustable sights as factory standard.

B.E.Brickey

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PETE posted this 09 October 2011

OC,

The advantage of adjustable sights is that they are adjustable to whatever POA you want. That's the point. And that's why most buy a gun with them on.

With a fixed sight you either have to be lucky and find a load that shoots to POA or figure out where to hold off to hit anything. Most factory fixed sights will get you close with a specific brand of factory ammo. But in target competition close don't ring the bell.

Pete

P.S. Got to looking over the rules again and noticed something I hadn't before. Barrel length--- 4” for revolvers, 5 1/2” for semi-autos. My Colt Army is 5” and as mentioned the SAA is 5 1/2". Guess that leaves me out, plus most that have been contributing to this thread.

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CB posted this 09 October 2011

Not everybody can afford to go out & buy a new gun at will. Even IHMSA “allows” adjustable sights. S&W 1911s don't have military style fixed sights, most of them appear to be Novak pattern, for that matter, the late S&W M&Ps use a similar sight design to the Novak, too. I hadn't considered single action revolvers because I don't own any, and have no desire to change that situation.

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PETE posted this 09 October 2011

I get it the rules of the match are plain. If you don't have the appropriate gun, or don't want to buy one that's your right not to play if you don't want to. As it stands right now I'm out of the game too unless I go out and buy one.

But if you can get Tom to change the sight rule then I'll get out my Kimber .45 target semi-auto. It's completely stock with no alterations of any kind. Doesn't need any. It'll take you right up to Master Class right out of the box.

See where this is leading? Just another equipment race! If you can afford the $1200 that the Kimber cost me, which will put 10 into the ten ring of the NRA 50 ft. slow fire target, then you to will be in the running in the match. Those “loose & sloppy” 6 or $700 semi-autos wouldn't even be in the running.

Pete

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PETE posted this 09 October 2011

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 09 October 2011

When I conceived of this match I was thinking Military Issue, with those awful fixed sights. I figured alot of people had them since I love them, now I realize very few people have those guns, so we thought a true production class that is different from the hunter class where Pete's Kimber would work fine. This would be include carry guns, many if not most having fixed sights as adjustible and target sights can snag on clothing. It would be Military, guns like the fixed S&W I carried on duty, and fixed sight Production guns, not an equipment race. I almost don't like to include the Novak sights as they give a huge advantage over the slot in the top strap that may not even show light on either side of the front sight but if it is not adjustible then I would say ok. An old gun with a loose rear dovetail sight that has to be reset after every shot would be ok to me, I don't see an advantage there.

Here is what I see it being

Production/as issued stock handgun

5 1/2 inch barrel, whether Pistol or Revolver (I would like 6 inch to include my pre-war Pre-Victory in .38 S&W for this year the barrels should be same length and ask the barrel length person used)

Issued stocks or stocks in manufacturers catalog at time gun available (for Model 10's that is 100 years)

No jazzing it up.

To test this out I went to the range today with 3 revolvers with fixed sights S&W 1917 .45 5 1/4 inch, S&W 581 .38 4 inch, S&W 36 .38 3 inch.

I shot at 50 feet, the 3 inch 36 did the best, the 5 1/4 1917 the worst. Also you can see I am not going to win anything!

The Model 36 is a small J frame

The target for the Model 36 only has 4 holes, I shot it after the 1917 with it's stock military god awful trigger so when I brought the 36 up towards the target I put one in the dirt below it!

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Brodie posted this 10 October 2011

My problem with the sight rule is that I would like to play very much, but I am not about to go out and buy a pistol so that I can not when I have a couple which would do just fine except that they have adjustable sights. And Pete; I will be happy to take you and your kimber on any time with either my beat up old 1911 or the commander. I just think that you are cutting out all the members who haven't kept old military hand guns. In other words Ben I think that you are being too narrow minded in your thinking..
Postal matches are dependent upon the honesty and integrety of the participants. if we have reached a point where that has become problematic then you might as well stop holding the matches, as you are dependent upon the word of the participant and nothing else.

B.E.Brickey

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 10 October 2011

When I first joined CBA what attracted me was the Military Rifle as issued class. Not that many of the people I know have kept or have old military rifles, everything is black guns or commercial hunting guns. Shooting in the as issued class was interesting, also they have a Military Modified iron/scope to handle other guns. My thought had been and continues to be a class for Military Handguns, it expanded a bit to take in fixed sights on other guns, like the Government 1911's that are reproductions. Several people have asked about the Novak sights, although if you ever compare a Novak sight on an M&P to the horrible sight on the Luger or even to the sight on the Walther P38 you can see the advantage. This initial event was to guage the interest, would there be enough to make it worthwhile? Could it down the road become a production class with 2 or more subclasses, Military as issued, production fixed sights, production adjustable sights ? The more we talk about it the more people who will be exposed to this.

We have the Hunter Class for pistols, I am using my Production 686 with adjustable iron sights in the Deer Hunter this year.

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Tom Acheson posted this 10 October 2011

I liked the idea of a SURPLUS Military pistol shoot. I own a P-38 brought back from the Battle of the Bulge and two 1911's. But it just seemed that there might be too few people who have the gear or the inclination to do this potential event. And there would be too many exemptions and “all I have is this situations”. By expanding it to include so called “service pistols” which in most cases involve a 4” barrel, seemed a bit logical. Ignoring the barrel cylinder gap, if the cylinder in a revolver is included (1.6”?) added to a 4” barrel, this is longer than the 1911. For 50-foot shooting distances, the “sight radius' has a larger influence than barrel length.

True, IHMSA guns have adjustable sights. But there is a world of difference between shooting distance of 50-feet and 50/100/150 and 200-meters! Adjustable sights are key to that game. That is why IHMSA modified the Production rule to allow after-market sights. Some makers adjustable sights (S&W and Ruger for example) are just plain lousy for silhouette competition. Some IHMSA members became frustrated with the prospect of having to buy a new gun just to get better sights, so the rule changed. But we aren't talking about those extensive shooting distances. And as noted above there already is Postal event for 50-yards using guns with adjustable sights, Hunter category, score or group.

If expanding this to allow adjustable sights and it helped establish the event then maybe that's a compromise we need to consider.

Interesting isn't it? Just a few of us are bouncing interesting ideas off each other but it makes you wonder if anyone else is looking at this and are remaining silent to see how it shakes out or possibly other visitors/readers just aren't interested? How many annual Postal participants are not computer savy and they rely only on the pre-match Postal guide that is sent out to see which ones they'll participate in?

Worth remembering...IF the Board allows this as a probationary event, the way it is worded in the Postal Guide will either interest and attract new shooters or it will get ignored. We should try to look beyond what our own arsenal includes and think of the many Fouling Shot articles where people (most are probably non competitors) are experimenting with and using older and simpler pistols.

Tom

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 10 October 2011

Tom, Battle of the Bulge, that is really neat! My P-38 is a Russian Capture, but still has all the proof marks etc, they weren't pinged out. I love WWII guns, especially my Beretta's and Walther PP 1939 in .380

I could see allowing adjustable sights in the “service” gun match, in that case the 4 inch barrel for the revolver makes sense since at 50 feet it wouldn't be that big an advantage. Look at how horrible my 1917 with the 5+ barrel did compared to the Model 36 3", of course I haven't slugged the barrel on the 1917 and the SWC .452 may be undersized or the crown may be junk.

Service Handgun, 4 in Revolver 5 1/2 Pistol, Production no modifications, iron sights (fixed or adjustable)

Once it is established we could do sub-classes.

This would allow me to use my service gun (S&W M-28) that I carried on duty or my Gold Cup 1911.

Are barrel lengths going to be a sticking point?

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PETE posted this 10 October 2011

Old coot,

  Ok. The target below isn't something I do every day, but it was shot with my .38 Special S&W in a revolver league this past Spring. It was shot one-handed at 50 ft. on the NRA 50 ft. Slow Fire Pistol target and was scored a 98. Can't use it in the proposed match as the barrel is to long and it has been “tinkered” with. Grips, trigger job & stop.

  Oh! And I do have my NRA Indoor Master card.

  Again...... I doubt if I could come close to this with a pure military pistol.... revolver or semi-auto. The below target just goes to show what can be done with adjustable sights and why I think the match as Tom has put forth is the way to go.

Pete

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 10 October 2011

What I do is to use www.photobucket.com it is a free hosting service. Sign up for the free service, upload the pictures to your album. then you hover over the image and a menu will appear you click on img code and it copies the link to your pc and then when you are typing here, like I am know you paste the link and it appears

for example here I am at Evil Roys shooting school in NH and I know I look more like Hoss than Ben, but I do have 3 boys and the youngest is a Lefty! and is SASS as Joe Cartwright.

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PETE posted this 11 October 2011

Thanks Ben. As you can see I tinkered around a bit and figured it out. I have a photobucket account and have posted a picture or two on here in the past but had forgotten how it was done. Just kept trying to copy the different codes and pasting them in. Finally found one that worked.

Had to look twice to see that it wasn't ol' Hoss Cartwright. Was about ready to ask hpw you got to meet him. :) Di a little CAS shooting with the NCOWS guys a while back. Just their Long Range and Buffalo Matches tho. That's where the .44/40 I have comes from.

Pete

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 11 October 2011

Pete Nice shootin Tex!

I have seen guys do similar but not with military style sights. My best the other day, above, when I ran to the range for literaly 15 minutes was the Model 36 which has the awful channel milled in the top strap, hard to see light on either side of the front sight. I have seen that the guys who win the “Military Shoots” at my club are the ones with the S&W Performance Center 1911's, they allow those and the Dan Wessons etc because the feel “not enough people want to shoot the old guns with the rudimentary sights” so it is rare for one of the government models or Victory revolvers to win a round.

I guess I try to appease everyone and also agree that Tom's proposed match is the way to go.

This competition my not be for everyone, but neither is unlimited rifle or unlimited pistol.

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 October 2011

Boy this thread has really grown and keeps on goin'!

That could be a hard target to score, Pete. When I try to measure groups on the CBA Military rifle targets, I flip the target over so I can see the center of the holes better. Do you guys think we should shoot two targets and combine the score, firing one cylinder or one mag on each of the two targets? The gain there could be two parts; easily identify 5 hits for scoring purposes and let the shooter quickly count his hits while engaged in case he lost track of how many rounds he shot. But if he only loads 5 at a time it shouldn't be a problem, right?

We haven't discussed time allowed to shoot. One minute total could be a bit short on time. One minute per target could maybe be too long. So 90-seconds? But if we aren't using a speed loader with the revolver or the revolver is a single action, then maybe 2-minutes total would work...or longer....suggestions?

Thanks!

Tom

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PETE posted this 11 October 2011

Ben,

Trust me. I don't shoot as well as the target I posted all the time. That was just one of those “keepers” a guy gets once in a while. That was put up to prove the point I was making. I KNOW I can't shoot anywhere near that well with a fixed sight gun that hasn't been “tinkered” with.

Don't beat yourself up to much. I know you'd like to see this match at least get a trial....... and so would I. But the line has to be drawn somewhere and Tom has done so. If anyone can't or doesn't want to play by those rules it seems to me that the CBA has other matches you can shoot in. And if there aren't any, do like you did and propose a match to there liking.

Tom,

It appears as tho for time your looking at something along the lines of the time limit of NRA Timed Fire. OK. But don't put in a time factor of needing to use a speed loader. Not sure such a animal is available for most of these old guns. I look at it to have, say for arguments sake, 90 sec's to shoot the target, then take whatever time you need to load for the next target, and fire the second one in 90 sec's, or whatever time you want to allow. Remember this isn't a speed loading, or a speed shooting contest. Of course a time limit should be set but not to the point it rushes a shooter. You could take your times from the other Postal comp.'s.

And yes, I think two targets would be best. Makes it a whole lot easier for the scorer. Even if all 5 are in virtually the same hole it's usually easy to pick them out.

If a person loads only 5 rds. in the magazine/cylinder there is no need to keep count. It's standard practice to do it that way in regular pistol competition.

Pete

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 11 October 2011

I was surprised there were only 6 responses to the survey, but then I got my very first Fouling Shot and saw that most Postal Matches seem to be only a few people shooting. I had thought they maybe got dozens. I did just send in my first targets in the Lever Action, I was thrilled they were all in the black!

2 targets would make sense and I agree with Pete that speed loaders are far and few between for alot of these guns.

I like playing with my S&W Victorys, it still amazes me how the size and weight of the bullet can bring the hits up or down on the target. I went to 200 grain bullets in my 38/200's, the 158 SWC's were printing about 4 inches low at 50 feet the 200's were about right.

I have a S&W Victory from 1943 that letters to the Connecticut State Police that I will probably use in this competition for revolver and then either my P-38, 1911A1, or one of my Berettas or Walther the Luger is to gawd awful a sight picture with the super narrow V on the rear sight.

My wife often says I am a nut as I sit in front of my handgun safe and take my time to oil and wipe down the guns, but I just enjoy looking at them.

I hope this gets a go as I am looking forward to it!

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 October 2011

I score the season BR rifle event which has a ton of entries, which includes 4 rifle categories. On the flip side of the participation coin, some Postal events have only 2 or 3 entrants. In the 200-yard Combined, I'm the only entry each year that uses a handgun...ha! handgun? XP-100 with 15” barrel and 7-pounds? If we had at least 4 “promised entrants” in each category--Revolver or Semi-auto--we should be able to launch this thing...my beliefs, not an official response.

Wasn't seeing this as a speed shooting thing but maybe it appears that way. Just thought that if we had an acceptable time frame to do both targets back-to-back, it would add an element of “fun". But I'm not married to it. Like I said, shooting time wasn't in the original poll question so that's an open detail.

All of your observations and suggestions are really helpful. Got any buddies who haven't spoken up that we can recruit?

Tom

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 11 October 2011

I will participate in both the Revolver and the Semi-Auto

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PETE posted this 11 October 2011

Tom,

I was just giving my opinion and suggestion from about 60 yrs. of competitive shooting. As such you can use any part of them or none at all. What it boils down to is you made the rules and we'll abide by them.

If you want to put a time limit on each target or the whole match that's fine by me. I've shot revolver in the 10 sec. rapid fire portions of matches both indoors and outdoors. For safeties sake I'd allow enough time for a reload.

One of the problems that would come is if you shorten the reloading time to far then those with speed loaders or two magazines, would have an unfair advantage over those who have to load singly. If your going to lump the semi- autos in with the revolvers at first this just compounds the disadvantage the revolvers shooters have. So by allowing more than sufficient time for reloading you take away this advantage and make it a shooting skill contest.

Then of course you have the double action vs semi-auto action. Single action is the only way it would be a fair contest between the two. Double action with a stock revolver you'd be lucky to hit the target. Now I can get off 5 aimed shots in 8 sec.'s or a little less single action. Those shooting revolver competition do it all the time. Can you?

You can see where I'm going with this can't you? :-) If your going to combine the two types of guns at first then your going to have to set the playing field so either type gun has a chance to win. If there's enuf interest later you can seperate the guns and set the times accordingly.

Pete

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delmarskid1 posted this 12 October 2011

I like the idea of an as issued service type handgun postal match. If it can work with rifles it should work as well with handguns. I say I'm in. I'm unclear as to the proposed time of firing rules. I will probably use my Star 9mm Largo. I have 2 mags so reloading time isn't an issue for me but I would hate to see rushed loadings for wheel guns. A quick pace would be kind of in the spirit of the firearms involved as they were meant to be used under duress.

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 12 October 2011

I will check to see of my S&W Victorys, which are basically pre-Model 10's can use the speed loaders for Model 10's, I know with Smiths, there are speed loaders for most models out there, but and it is a big but, there will be people who may want to shoot a service revolver that doesn't have a speed loader available.

It would be great if there is enough interest to split the pistols/revolvers even for the fist match. Well I better get practicing.

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Tom Acheson posted this 12 October 2011

Guys,

When this poll was set-up it was arranged to run for 30-days. Some people don't get on the computer every day so maybe some patience will help us wait and see how many positive responses will eventually appear.

While that is going on let's look at the timing we'd like. I suspect all of us are OK with some kind of time limit but are committed to not making this an IPSIC or Bullseye speed event. Let's each trial this and see how much time makes sense. Dry fire in the basement or go out to the range. I believe all of us have shot enough to know our limitations as to how long we are comfortable holding on target before we shoot. Do that for five shots, for four consecutive 5-shot strings and then average that time. Then punch the empties out and hand insert each round into each chamber or drop the mag and insert the new one and raise up to your first shot. What is the average of that re-load time?

We'll share test results and then establish a total cycle time for the 10-shots.

Let's plan from the outset to have a semi-auto and wheelgun category. Most of us will probably shoot both.

Year one (hopefully 2012) will be a one time event. If it has good participation we can look at doing it as a season thing where we do this once a month (May/June/July/Aug.)

Thanks for the help and interest!

Tom

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PETE posted this 12 October 2011

Tom,

As I mentioned earlier. Neither one of my guns will make the barrel length you have set up in the rules. (5” & 5 1/2") So will pass on the function test till I know for sure this match is gonna fly. Then I'll have to see what I can pick up at a gun show.

To clear up one point for myself. I'm getting it that for a revolver a modern made or old original one making the rules will be legal. Does the same apply to semi-autos?

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 13 October 2011

Pete,

Yes. We might have started-out looking at military surplus handguns but as the comments came in, it seemed as if we needed to open the boundaries a bit to pull in more participants. That's where the “service” pistol came into the discussion. Historically when policemen were armed with revolvers, the 4” barrel length seemed to dominate.....except for Dirty Harry's revolver.

Have fun shopping!

Tom

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PETE posted this 13 October 2011

:-) I guess it depends on which service. Military Service usually went with the 5 1/2", & 7 1/2". But I won't argue the point and go look for a semi-auto with 5 1/2” barrel. That way I'll have the gun covered but will be able to easily meet any time limit you set.

Will a knockoff of a 1911 be OK as long as it has fixed sights?

Pete

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 13 October 2011

will a knockoff of a 1911 be OK as long as it has fixed sights,

I say yes, my Colt Series 80 Government model has those horrible U notch rear sights, same with my Auto Ordanence 1911 but I love them.

the predominant US Military revolvers were the Victory and Colt Commando, both had 4 inch barrels for the US, while the Victorys for the Canadians, British, and Austrailians had 5 inch barrels and 38/200 rather than 38 special. Other than the Single action army's which could 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 or 7 the longest barrel military gun I am aware of were the 1917's .45 acp by Colt and S&W.

A good gun to use are the S&W 5906's, real nice semi-auto with fixed sights, nice single action trigger and there are a ton of ex-Police ones on the market right now.

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PETE posted this 13 October 2011

Ben,

Will look around at the next gun show at the beginning and end of Nov. Might even look at a Beretta 92f. We should know by then if this match is gonna fly. As far as I know there's been no formal go on it. Just a lot of talk.

Pete

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det posted this 17 October 2011

I would be interested but I am shooting a 7 1/2 inch New service in 38/40 and it looks like the barrel will be to long.

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det posted this 17 October 2011

I would be interested but I am shooting a 7 1/2 inch New service in 38/40 and it looks like the barrel will be to long.

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Tom Acheson posted this 19 October 2011

Well, what does the group think? 7 1/2” long barrel? There is probably a bunch of Ruger Vaquero Calvary models out there (I have one). Does an extra 3 1/2” barrel length, when shooting at 50-feet, provide a sighting advantage? If the consensus of the group is “not an advantage” then we could expand that rule equipment boundary.

Thanks for your continued input!

Tom

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PETE posted this 20 October 2011

Tom,

With fixed sights there probably isn't much of an advantage with a longer barrel. If the longer barrel is allowed I'd use my Colt revolver with the 5” barrel and not feel in the least handicapped.

If you stop and think about it there isn't a whole lot of wgt. out front of a fixed sight revolver so I'd imagine the “wobble” factor would about negate any advantage of a longer sight radius, and at 50 ft. if there is any advantage it would be negligeable.

Pete

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 20 October 2011

I don't see an advantage, or at least I never have with my shooting. That would allow my 5 inch British Victory model, there I have played with bullet weights to bring the point of impact up to where I am aiming using 200 grain bullets. It would also allow the 1917's or my Ruger Vaguero with 5 1/2 barrel. We could use the Hunter Class for weight and barrel length but add “as issued” i.e. production and fixed sights.

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PETE posted this 20 October 2011

Been sitting here thinking.... Yes. My friends will tell you that ain't good. :-)

Here's my thinking. As I get it the idea is to make it simple and to use a basic type gun. There would be nothing simpler than any stock factory revolver or pistol using fixed sights, whether military or commercial.

You want to use your 3” snubby, fine. You want to use your “Saturday Nite Special", as long as it's safe, fine. You want to use your 10” Ned Buntline special, fine. How about that broom handle Mauser. Fine. Maybe that Luger or 1911. Fine. As long as it is/was a stock item from the factory, is a centerfire gun, with fixed sights, shooting Lead bullets per CBA rules, and safe to shoot, you can use it.

Pete

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CB posted this 22 October 2011

If you don't want fixed sights competing against adjustable sights, and there are reasons not to, consider 2 sub classes. One for “as issued” duty style fixed sight guns, you could call this the “Military & Police” class, and one for adjustable sights, that you could call anything you want :). It's not a perfect solution because of the barrel length issue, but it's a start. I emphatically wouldn't be interested in a match that requires me to buy a special gun for, at least not to start out with.

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PETE posted this 22 October 2011

Anachronisn,

Of course you raise a point but adjustable sights are already addressed in matches 1a, 2a, 4a, 5a, 6a, 9a, 12a, 14a, 15a, 17a, & 18a. Now I haven't looked at each match to see what's allowed and what isn't, but if you look at the Pistol Match rules on PG.6 of the Postal Match flyer you'll find there are rules for iron and scope pistol sights. I think I can assume that adjustable iron sights will be be used by all shooting in the matches listed above.

The whole idea of the proposed match is to have a match just for fixed sight guns. I will agree with you on the barrel length issue but hope my previous message addresses this sufficiently. Otherwise I'm up the creek to and would have to buy another gun to play...... which I'm not entirely against. :-)

Pete

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CB posted this 22 October 2011

Okay. I give up.

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PETE posted this 26 October 2011

Tom,

Thought I'd bring this back up to the top since you haven't bothered to make any comments about the latest posts.

Just wondering if the rules on page #1 are now set in stone?

The reason I ask is that there are two gun shows coming up in the next two weeks with another at the end of November so if they are I'll need to look for another gun if I want to shoot it.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 26 October 2011

Pete,

I was waiting to see if the interest grew enough to draw some new commentator's while at same time waiting on a response from the CBA as to what it takes to get a new Postal event launched. So far no response but I'll keep after them.

Part of the ongoing gradual demise of IHMSA is the frequent opening-up of new gun categories. One of the results of that experience is diluted participation in all of the categories (that's an opinion).

So that we get as strong of a turnout as we can the first year, and don't end-up with only two people shooting in each of a multitude of categories, I think it best to limit ourselves to two categories....wheel guns and semi-autos. IF the participation level exceeds our expectations then in a subsequent year we could open things up a bit. But as was posted earlier, there already are ample participation options for equipment variations in existing Postal events but those are shot at a minimum of 50-yards, not 50-feet.

I'm OK with the 7 1/2” barrel limit on the wheel guns. It would let the Vaquero's and SAA clones play the game. And modern guns or actual old surplus guns are fine. But let's stay with fixed sights at least till the horse has left the barn and made it to the alfalfa field. I've seen it before...people say they'll join in but then when it comes time to actually do it, the crowd is for some reason always smaller than the initial usual suspects.

Tom

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PETE posted this 27 October 2011

Tom,

I wholeheartedly agree with you about fixed sights. And your take on barrel length is right on.

My own experience with long barrels and fixed sights is that after about 5” or 5 1/2” the length can be a detriment. Fixed sight revolvers usually have thin barrels. Most of the wgt. of the above mentioned barrel lengths will put that wgt. back in the hand. As the barrel gets longer the wgt. moves forward. Not having enuf wgt. to help steady the gun it just contributes to the wobble.

Talking to a friend at the range today, who might join us in this match, he brought up a point I hadn't thought about. He was wondering if it would be allowed to put an aiming point on the target? I'll post a picture tomorrow to show where I had to hold in order to put them in the center of the bull. I assume others have, or will, have the same problem.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 27 October 2011

Pete,

I've been doing the CBA Deer Hunter Practical Postal for quite few years. Way back when I asked the same question and was told that it is permissible. That deer outline printed on the medium brown paper is (for me) hard to distinguish where the heart area is at 50-yards. I seem to hit Mule Deer heart areas OK (22 so far in Wyoming with iron sights and a revolver). But even with the more distinguishable aiming point on the paper target, the scores just don't get where I'd like them to be.

Tom

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PETE posted this 27 October 2011

 Tom,

  I'll certainly agree with you that having an aiming point does not make for a perfect score. You still have to do the shooting. But thinking on it a bit if we don't allow an aiming point there will be some who say that there gun shoots so far off that without an aiming point they won't be able to shoot anywhere near where the shot ought to be. It was just an idea that someone would be sure to bring up, but your the boss and whatever you say we'll have to play along with.

  I guess one more point that needs to be clarified is the time for reloading. Or, you can leave that up to the whoever decides if this match will fly.

  Here's that picture I mentioned I'd put up. As you can see by the aiming point I have to hold about 2” to the right. Looks like it should be a little lower too.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 02 November 2011

I suppose that this how people get into trouble...the 30-day poll has ended, there was a decent response but I can't get the CBA to tell me what it takes to start a new Postal event. So a neck gets stuck out!

So...how about a test run? I'll buy targets, develop a Tech Data Sheet and send it to the interested shooters? We'll have two categories...semi-auto and wheel gun. The cost would be much like the regular postal events, $4 per gun category. You'll receive (3) targets: a sighter and two record targets. You'll shoot 5-rounds on each of the two targets. You'll have 4-minutes to shoot a total of (10) rounds. That should be adequate for the SAA revolvers to be emptied and reloaded. Out of the box stock production with the only variable being the use of grips made and offered as an optional item for the gun being used by the original gun manufacturer. No custom shop guns. Fixed sights only and a barrel length max. of 7 1/2". Target return date will be 15 July (in case you want to do it over the 4th).

Money distributed to top shooters based upon the total entries in a category following the CBA distribution method. Balance used to pay for targets and postage and anything left goes to the CBA. ALL shooters will be sent a post-match summary regardless of finishing status. It will not be reported in the Fouling Shot unless I can twist an arm to allow me to do a short article on the game. I'll score the targets and ask someone locally to score mine.

I need some help determining which target we should be using. Maybe the 25-yard (timed/rapid fire) NRA Conventional Pistol target. We will be shooting offhand at 50-feet. This will be a score only, not a group event. I suppose if score and x-count are the same we could use group size to break ties? Call it the Basic Handgun event? Practical Pistol event? Timed Fire Handgun event?

Tom

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LWesthoff posted this 02 November 2011

Tom;

I've stayed out of this discussion because at 84, I'm too old and shaky to even try any kind of pistol competition any more. (Actually, that's why I gave up Bullseye Pistol after almost 40 years of active competition, and started cast bullet bench rest competition.)

However, I've got to say I think you've got a winner there, if you can keep it pretty close to the way you've outlined it. It'll be fun, and it won't degenerate into any kind of an equipment race. The 25 yard timed/rapid Bullseye target is the one I would choose. Good Luck!

Wes

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PETE posted this 02 November 2011

Tom,

I'll agree with Wes on the target. Good choice. Count me in.

Since youwant to divide it up into two classes I'll probably try both out. Still waiting for the grips for the Colt Army Special so that might be a problem. But got the pistol end covered by getting an RIA GI 1911 in 9mm this past weekend, so should have that part covered.

If you end up with a tie you might go with the “X” closest to center.

When do you want to start this match?

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 02 November 2011

The Postal “season” does not start until 1 Jan. I think the earliest events have due dates of either March or April. As a one-time trial thing I was thinking mid-summer for the target return date. But shooters can always go out and shoot earlier. All that is needed is to make sure the targets get sent back by the deadline.

If the response here demonstrates a committed participation level, I'll start the sign-up drill sometime after 1 Jan.

Tom

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PETE posted this 03 November 2011

Tom,

Sounds good! Count me in for one at least and maybe two if I get the grips for the Colt revolver.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 November 2011

OK all of you “dead eye” handgunners that want to give this a try, PM me with your snail mail address and I'll send you a pre-match bulletin.

We are doing this as a trial event on our own so that we can use our large turnout to convince the CBA that it merits being included in the 2013 CBA Postal program.

I'll be checking my PM box periodically to collect the names.

This will be FUN!

Tom

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PETE posted this 11 November 2011

Tom,

PM sent.

Considering the number of shooters in some of the Postal events I'd think the Poll you put up would indicate enuf interest. And if the BoD would look at the number of views there were here that might be a wake-up call too.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 12 November 2011

So far 4 names are reporting in. It's early though.

I think we'll use the NRA 50-foot indoor timed/rapid fire target. The 25-yard bullseye target might be too “generous” in the score dpeartment. I plan to send out the pre-match bulletin in mid Dec. to allow some time for the name list to devleop.

I've been thinking about the due date. Maybe 15 July is a bit late in the year? If interest continues to devlop we might have a bunch of guys anxious to see how they did as a group. Might move it up to 1 June. We'll see.

Tom

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Tom Acheson posted this 12 November 2011

P.S. In keeping with the CBA requirements, all participants must be CBA members.

Tom

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PETE posted this 13 November 2011

Tom,

I'll go along with the due date. About the middle of June it gets so hot & humid in there (no AC, but only $30 a year) that we're pretty well done till the 1st of Oct. I could go over to an indoor range that charges $15 an hour. Our outdoor range is 25/50/100/200 yds. and no sneaking ahead of the firing line, so that leaves that out. for shooting this match

So.... As long as the dates allow me to get the shots in I'll go along with anything you come up with. I'll shoot them in the Jan./Mar. period as after that I'll be shooting rifle outdoors. I suspect many others will be too.

:) Was wondering if you'd seen the 25 yd. target size when you proposed that. Even tho it's shot at 25 yds. it always seemed we could get higher scores shooting on it.

Pete

Oh!.... CBA # 901743

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Tom Acheson posted this 13 November 2011

Still on the fence with the target, which of the two. Ahve to watch out for too many perfect or possible scores. Makes it harder to score the targets.

We're calling this a 50-foot indoor match but I'll be shooting mine outdoors. We have a “short range” set-up where you can shoot any distance between 5-feet and 15-yards. Maybe I forgot that not everyone has that flexibility. But I can go to an in-town indoor range and pay their hourly rate to do this if I have to.

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tturner53 posted this 13 November 2011

I'm in. Got a couple contenders, maybe my 4” Victory. Little loose but whatthehell, it's for fun, right? Fun is fun! pm on the way

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PETE posted this 13 November 2011

Tom,

If your worried about all those perfect scores we can always use the10 meter air gun target. :-)

Pete

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 15 November 2011

I am not sure how to set up my account to automatically send me emails when new posts are made to this thread, however I am in for the match. not only that but I am going to try both classes and my plan is to do several guns in the wheelgun class and a couple in the pistol class. I want to try my Victory 4” (US) against one of my Victory 5” (British) against my 1917 (45acp) against my 581 4 in vs my Ruger Single Action 4 5/8 Cowboy gun. and in Pistol try my WWII Luger against my 1911, auto ordanence. Can you say more dollars than cents?

I should really cut down the number of guns I have and get good at just a couple or a few, but I never met a gun I didn't like!

This should be a blast, and I think it evolved into a good match with the specs, fixed sights and 7 1/2 barrel.

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Tom Acheson posted this 15 November 2011

Gents,

So far (1:00 CST, 15 Nov.) I've collected (10) names. I'll be doing one of each; an old S&W Model 58 and a WW II P-38. Never shot the P-38. Will give me (another) gun project for the winter. I smell a new bullet mould and some dies in my future.

This event will be known as Timed Fire Handgun.

Tom

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PETE posted this 15 November 2011

Tom,

If the grips ever show up for the Colt I'll be doing two too. The Colt Army Special and a RIA 1911A1 GI.

I figured things would pick up as far as sign-ups go. With over a 1000 reads on this thread there had to be some interest in shooting the match.

Ben,

Gee! A man after my own heart. I too have never seen a gun I didn't like. My buddy and I go to gun shows with no idea what we want but if we see “IT” we'll know it.

Pete

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delmarskid1 posted this 16 November 2011

My Star model A feeds button nose wad-cutters! Who'd a thunk that old clunker would do that?

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Tom Acheson posted this 20 January 2012

This hasn't been forgotten about, even though it's been over two months since we last discussed this.

I'll be sending out a match bulletin to those who gave me their addresses and then it will be up to each person to send in their fee, etc. This bulletin will go out in February.

More to follow.....

Tom

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tturner53 posted this 20 January 2012

10-4. Looking forward to it.

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Fg1 posted this 20 January 2012

I just saw this and would like to get in on this if not to late . I have a little Colt Police 38 with 4” barrel if that will fit the bill.

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 23 January 2012

I cast up a bunch of 158 gr SWC for my .38's, :lovecast:

now just have to decide which of the 20 to use. I am also going to try a .45 auto and a P-38 :fire

I guess I just like to abuse myself :shock:

:fire

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Tom Acheson posted this 25 January 2012

Target selection:

For those of you following this (we have 12 signed-up so far) I did some comparisons of targets today. No shooting, just sight picture at 50-feet using my Vaquero.

These were the targets with the outside dia. of the black center: 50-yard smallbore rifle 3 7/8" 50-foot slow fire pistol 3 1/16" 50-foot timed/rapid fire pistol 5 1/2"

To me, the 3 7/8” had a good “balance” to the overall sight picture. I plan to order targets the weekend of 4 Feb. If you have any comments please let me know before then.

Thanks in advance for the input!

Tom

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PETE posted this 26 January 2012

Tom,

Altho I would think the 50 ft. slow or timed fire would be more appropriate since...... as I got it...... we'll be shooting at 50 ft. would be the target to use. But makes no difference to me which target we use since everyone will be using the same one.

Pete

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Tom Acheson posted this 26 January 2012

Ken,

Got your PM but can't make a return work. You are on the list!

Tom

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Fg1 posted this 26 January 2012

Sounds good to me .

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Johnny Breedlove posted this 26 January 2012

Can I use a S&W Highway patrol 4” with packmayr Presentation grips. I did not quite understand the grip limitations.

What are the ammo limitations> My thought is I would like to use home cast D.E.wad cutters or Keith semi wad cutters.

Well after rereading the original thread of 2nd Oct 2011. I won't be able to use my Smith HW patrol, and that leaves me out.

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MKastning posted this 24 January 2013

Just a quick note to let those that participated in this trial match know that it has been included in the 2013 Postal match lineup!

I have the targets ready to send out, and it still has the July date to send targets in for scoring.

This “trial” match actually had more shooters than many of the other postal events. I am generally a rifle shooter, but it has me looking into my gun collection to see what I have for fixed sight handguns.

Let me knof if you need a copy of the postal guide emailed to you, or even sent via USPS. there may be other matches you would like to know about as well.

Mike

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 24 January 2013

Which match is it? I have to 2013 guide but don't see it.

It is interesting this came in today, as I was starting to plan my year

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MKastning posted this 25 January 2013

Match 21, bottom of page 17 in the 2013 match guide.

I had to split the page with match 20, and the text got a little close.

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tturner53 posted this 19 March 2013

I need a clarification on 'fixed sights'. My old M&P or Victory are fixed fixed. My 1911 could be drifted in the dovetail. I'm guessing this passes for fixed? Got my targets, hoping to do better than last year! Any dovetailed sight is adjustable, right? Wrong? Help!

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Tom Acheson posted this 20 March 2013

Yes, the sights as you describe them are OK. We just wanted to eliminate the “quick” adjust-ability that a screw driver would offer while the shooter is engaged in the match. Not much room with that sight set-up to quickly alter the elevation either.

Tom

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CB posted this 03 November 2016

Test comment

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