Military Handgun class for Postal Matches? Any interest?

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  • Last Post 03 October 2011
Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 21 September 2011

I collect Smith & Wessons and Boston Police guns, however I also collect Military handguns, especially US Navy Victory Model revolvers. I realize that they can be used in the Pistol Hunter Class but I was wondering if anyone has expressed an interest in a Military Handgun as issued class?

I wouldn't put my 686 up against my 4 inch Victory .38 or my P-38 or Luger but I love to shoot the old military guns.

Here for sure is a class that would not be an equipment race. No modifications would be allowed and the handguns would be strictly as issued.

I am interested to see what people think.

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raytear posted this 21 September 2011

I'd find a military handgun class very interesting as long as it would allow revolvers that have been only slightly modified---as in having the rear of a cylinder milled-off a bit to a accept an available cartridge case.

Good shooting! RT

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Tom Acheson posted this 21 September 2011

Me too. I've often thought of this but always assumed the interest would be weak. I believe it should as issue only, no alterations, no scopes, no modified sights, etc. Not sure on the range but 50-yards might be pushing it unless we set it at offhand only and then it would be best to limit it to 25-yards?

Tom

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raytear posted this 21 September 2011

What I specifically have in mind is .455 Webley's that have had the rear of the cylinder milled to accept a .45 Auto rim case.  The .455 Webley cases were impossible to find a few years ago and are really, really hard to locate now--and require $$$$ to obtain.

Good shooting! RT

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 21 September 2011

I would think that a modification like the Webley could be a specified exception, although I would be inclined to strictly as issued only. No scopes, original unmodified sights, original grips (don't have to number to the gun) the grips can make it tough shooting especially the 1917's in 45acp.

Webley's in 38 S&W are available for not too much money and “shooter” Victory revolvers in 38 Special and 38 S&W while rough exteriors are reasonable. I have 9 Victory's (3 in 38 S&W).

Range, off-hand 25 yards, that is what most were set up for, and bench rest at 50 yards, I think would work. Although Trail Boss in a .38 Sp at 50 yards, is a bit anemic.

If got real popular we could do a Military Handgun Modified, frame-cylinder/magazine-sights barrel all issue, but you could mill the back for caliber, and replace the grips.

I have a Victory model that someone blued so I put on target grips and a “wondersight” a rear windage elevation adjustable sight, shoots real nice.

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tturner53 posted this 22 September 2011

Sounds like fun to me, I'd play.

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 22 September 2011

Could even mimic the big boys (current Military Class) to have as Issued and modified iron sights/scope

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raytear posted this 22 September 2011

Just as an aside, I have prowled many, many gun shops and have only seen one Webley of any stripe. From what I have read, to find one in the U.S in .455 without the milled cylinder is exceedingly rare.

Good shooting! RT

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 23 September 2011

Webley's in .455 are rare, I have a Webley in .38 S&W and while not common they are out there.

What do people think of 25 yards for off-hand with Military Handguns? Most of them had 4 inch barrels, although some like the S&W Victory's in .38 S&W had 5 inch.

I am going to go to the range next weekend and try my Victorys (4 inch) at 50 yards both off hand and bench rest.

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LWesthoff posted this 23 September 2011

I believe most military handguns were designed and adjusted for 25 yard use. That and close to 40 years experience at bullseye pistol competition puts me in complete agreement with the suggestion of 25 yards for off-hand with Issue class Military Handguns. Most as-issued 1911 Colts required some pretty extensive tuning to even stay close to the black at 50 yards, even from a Ransom Rest.

Cast Bullet Military Handgun matches sound like fun. If I were a few years younger and a little steadier I might even try it!

Wes

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Tom Acheson posted this 23 September 2011

Maybe start it off as a score event only (no group shooting). Does it make sense to have a revolver only and semi-auto only category? Or are all action types felt to be at a similar accuracy level?

I'm in for it but I'd like to see it based on guns that are as-issue only, no current manufacture replicas. The Military Rifle event has too many variables in it that reduce the spirit of intent of the class..but that's just an opinion.

Tom

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Ed Harris posted this 23 September 2011

Old post deleted, please read and comment on my suggested revision of 4 Dec 2016 farther down.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Tom Acheson posted this 23 September 2011

The idea of fixed sights is a good one.

When we say Police...must it be a gun that was at one time issued to police departments or would it be any revolver that was a standard factory catalog item up to and including 1950 (with Ed's barrel length suggestion)?

Should we consider it being a Season event? Shoot once a month for 4-months and have a monthly winner along with an agg. winner at the end.

Tom

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delmarskid1 posted this 24 September 2011

This might make a nice winter game. A lot of clubs have 50 ft. indoor ranges.

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raytear posted this 25 September 2011

A lot of P-08s, i.e., Lugers, and P-38s were issue to police in Germany and other countries. Many Lugers have front sights drift adjustable for windage. I am not real familiar with the details of P-38's.

Just some thoughts.

Good shooting! RT

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Ed Harris posted this 25 September 2011

delmarskid1 wrote: This might make a nice winter game. A lot of clubs have 50 ft. indoor ranges.

That was my thought. Colt and S&W targeted fixed sight gun at 20 yards and this was industry standard for over a century. Would be fun to shoot the old cop guns at the Bunny target just for laughs.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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30shtur posted this 25 September 2011

A US (Colt/S&W) military revolver competition would be a great start, NMC at 50 feet. The military 1911's are very expensive.

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Tom Acheson posted this 26 September 2011

OK, let's morph this even further...with all of the people owning concealed carry handguns, there must be an interest in getting out even more often to play with them, right? So...4” revolver barrel limit, 5 1/2” (or..1911?) semi-auto barrel length. OUT OF THE BOX NO MODIFICATIONS. Fixed sights only. 50-feet, offhand only. Seasonal, once a month May, June July and August.

Tom

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Ed Harris posted this 26 September 2011

Edited And Revised 4 Dec. 2016

Dusting this old thread off.  Either military issue, or postwar commercial production which is a faithful reproduction of the WW2-era or earlier version. Fixed sights only. “Out of the Box” No Mods except fixed sights may be drifted or filed to zero and triggers adjusted for improved but safe trigger pull.  ORIGINAL BARREL AND GRIPS!

Since .32 ACP and .380 ACP were used as military issue pistols by both the Axis powers and the Allies in WW2, they should be allowed.  I'm thinking in terms of two classes:

"Pocket Pistol” class geared towards the Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless, Beretta M1934, Walther PP, CZ27, M1922 Browning, etc., of caliber 9mm or smaller (case not specific) barrel length not to exceed 12cm and weight of pistol not to exceed 1 kg.

For instance, M1934 Beretta either of wartime date, or postwar production of the same model, in either steel or light alloy frame, or Walther PP or PPk postwar commercial models with fixed sights, including the PPK/S .

For “Pocket Pistol” I would suggest NRA B24 reduced scale rapid-fire silhouette 10 shots at 50 feet in time limit of 1 minute including reloading time.

Then for the “Holster Pistol” class, 9x19mm Parabellum or larger caliber.  Maximum barrel length 20cm. No weight limit as long as gun is “issue” use the same target and course of fire.

Consider separate class for “Pocket Revolver” maximum 3 inch barrel, double-action only, fixed sights, .38 Special or larger. Same target and course of fire K.I.S.S. principle.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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raytear posted this 26 September 2011

Good idea, Ed!

There are a bazillion 9 x 18mm Makarovs of various makes and nationalities out there along with Colt & Browning, etc., etc., pocket pistols. I even know a guy who has an 8mm Nambu that is able to fire two or three shots in a row before incurring a stoppage who might be interested in something like this.

:fire Good shooting! RT

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Ben Cartwright SASS posted this 03 October 2011

The only draw back to 4 inch for Revolver is that would eliminate all the 38 S&W Webley's and Enfields as well as all the British Victory's with a 5 inch barrel (I have 2) and the 1917's with a 5 1/2 barrel, again I have 2 a Colt and a Smith.

Ed's idea of calling it a Miltary and Police as issued would have a snappy name that would attract attention, I also have 9 Boston Police Guns, but only 4 are older than 1950.

I don't know if I am making this more complicated than it would need to be but what about:

5 1/2 barrel length whether Revolver or Pistol, Fixed sights, “as issued” no modifications, catalog grips only. 50 foot distance. Smith made some 5 inch barrels on modern stuff, but I don't think the extra inch would make that big a difference at 50 feet IMHO but it would allow the Webley's OR and I like this, keep the Revolvers at 4 inches but with an exception for authentic Military guns, where you would be allowed 5 1/2 inches (Webley, British Victory) but I could live with the 4 inche.

I would be just nice to have an “as issued” handgun competition, everyone has one or can get one and it wouldn't be an equipment race.

I took one of the 8 inch targets to the range tonight at shot it with a Sigma and a M&P Compact at 50 feet, it is a little big for holding for tight groups BUT For me it doesn't matter, with those two DO only 4 inch Semi's my group size was the size of the target, not the black.. the entire paper, I woiuld call the 60 shots on it a 12 inch group ROFL!!! But I had fun and my son was shooting my SA Vaquero and had fun too.

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