.50/70 - anyone shooting one of these?

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Daryl S posted this 12 February 2007

Any action type, Rolling Block, Sharps or Springfield Trapdoor?

: If so, what bullet are you shooting, lube, powder, wads - performance? - An exchange of information might benefic all who shoot them.

: I have a 'kit' 'replica' Itie Sharps action (Pedersoli, I think) with an original New Model 1859 Sharps barrel, relined and chambered to .50/70 by Sharps under contract in 1867.  This barrel is a 3 groove, with 42” twist.  The 'original' 515141 grooved bullet at approximately 450gr. is too long at .950” length, requiring a 40” mimnimum twist by formula. The 520gr. Lyman too long as well, requires a 36” twist according to Greenwell's #'s .

: I shortened my #515141 mould's bullet by drilling the blocks and installing a plunger to reduce the length to .830". This length requires 48” twist minimum, easily handled by the 42” twist in the rifle. At .875", the #'s show for a 42” twist, but I wanted to be sure of good stabilizaton. The modified mould casts 420gr. in 50:50, WW and pure lead.

: The .950” long #515141 bullets shoot fairly well, but show tipping on a 100yard target, as well as the longer, heavier 520gr. 515142's are really tipped. Both appear to be too long for my carbine's rate of twist.

: So far, 5 and 6 shot groups run just over 3", with 3 to 4 rounds in 1.5” generally.  Better sights and/or a flat topped front sight would bring that in some, I am sure. It is difficult to see the sharp point consistantly on the front blade.

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RicinYakima posted this 12 February 2007

50/70's forever!

I have an original Remington rolling block, re-barreled and restocked by The Shutzen Gunworks (sp?) of Colorado. While I have not done a lot of work with it, I have a Richard Hoch mould that is a copy of the original bullet and it is nicely accurate with 23.5 grains of SR4759.

While not a target rifle, it has tremendous power and I would not hesitate to hunt anything in the Americans with it as long as I could get within 150 yards.

Ric

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sundog posted this 12 February 2007

I do. Well, I haven't shot it yet. It's an original 1859 Sharps Conversion with liner. I've got new wood for it but not installed yet. Brass is from Starline, Lyman dies, and Lee 515-450-F. Lube is bees wax, safflower oil, and Ballistol. This gun probably has not been fired in maybe a hundred years, but is in very good condition mechanically. It's been in the family a long time, and I'm proud to be the current custodian of such a fine piece of history. I will, of course, be shooting black.

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Daryl S posted this 12 February 2007

Sounds Great, guys.  Thanks for answering the post.  Have you checked your rifling twists yet?

:  I read that both 24” and 42” twists were used, if those reports are correct.  As I stated, my '59 lined barrel has a 42” twist and .515” groove diameter.  I'm wondering if reports of 24” twists were merely typos with the numbers reversed.  Sharps twist rate for all .50's was 36"in the 2.5” case.  Harry McGowen, St Anne Ill.  makes a very accurate 24” twist .50 cal. blank.  The one I bought from him, chambered in .50 Alaskan back in the late 80's was nicely accurate - and shot into 1-1/2” at both 100 and 200 yards with black powder loads. I was seriously considering having him make me another to replace this original '59 barrel, but will now work with the original barrel just to see what I can do with it. At 22” length, it sure makes a handy hunting rifle, kicks a bit, though.

: I've done some work with it using 4759, AA2015, AA1680, Herco, IMR 4198, IMR4350 and 3031 as well as Black Mag 3, 1F as well as 2F GOEX.  75gr. weight of Black Mag 3 develops 1,440fps, the highest velocity and heaviest recoil my rifle has seen. Unfortuately, that load's impact is 1 foot low of the point of aim at 100 yards.  Loads producing velocities in the 1,200fps to 1,240fps range print just over the sights at the same range, so that is my target velocity. The Herco loads seem to produce the best consistant accuracy, and run 1,200fps to 1,260fps with 18.0gr. to 21.0gr.  I use standard large rifle primers with this powder.

; The most accurate black powder load so far, is 10gr. 3F with 60gr. 1F over it, OxYoke wad and the 420gr. modified bullet, with bore butter in the bullet's grooves. 

: I've had clean shooting using the above load, 35 consecutive rounds, no leading, no fouling buildup. The same lack of fouling has occured with Lyman's Black Powder Gold, and a mix of 60/40 beeswax and vaseline - all hand lubed, no sizing. 

: I use both Dixie brass and .348 Winchester's blown out and trimmed. One must be careful of the extractor in the Sharps when using blown out and trimmed .348 brass.

: The chamber on my rifle will accept a 1.920” case with a 420gr. (shortened #515141) bullet seated all grooves in the case, so I suspect the longer cases might be the most accurate - further testing will show one way or the other. If I can do my part, it might hold inside 2".

: We'll have to stay in touch with further development.

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RicinYakima posted this 13 February 2007

Good Morning all! I have tried to post some pictures of my 50/70 all morning, but am having troubles. Let's see if these will work.

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RicinYakima posted this 13 February 2007

Must have the files too large!

I never put much stock in Greenhill's formula, as this one has the one turn in forty two inch barrel and shots fine with 11 grains of Unique at 980 f/s, chronographed. The bullet is 465 grains when cast from 1/40 alloy.

My cases are the old Dixie ones that are two pieces soldered togather. They only hold 65 grains of DuPont FF without a wad and compressed. Black shoots OK, but accuracy is not as good as smokless loads. As in about 12” groups after four shots, but that must be why the wiping round is under the barrel.

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Daryl S posted this 13 February 2007

Nice - looks great -

: Here's a forend/barrel shot of mine.

: I'm going to try bumping my bullets up a bit in diameter to see if that will prevent the tipping.  It is interesting that I get no tipping at all with the shortened bullets, but tipping with the full length and the heavier 520gr. Lyman (#515142) is quite bad. I sure like the wad-cutter shaped holes left by the lighter flat nosed ones. I noticed that Rapine has a better variety of moulds, and the 385gr.FN might be the best of all for a hunting bullet.

: I've had very good results with BP - perhaps the difference between our guns is the wad and lube I use. As my bullets come out at .515", I now shoot them as-cast and lube by hand.  Originally, I sized them down to .512” and lubed using the lube-sizer, which spread groups to about 5 or 6", of course, in the .515” groove diameter barrel. Since then, I pan lube or hand lube and shoot as cast. I always use a card or Oxyoke fibre (wool?) wad beneath the bullet.  In the .50 Alaskan, use of the factory lubricated Oxyoke wad's was manditory for less than 2-1/2” to 3" groups.  It was like magic, the difference, that is.

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R. Dupraz posted this 13 February 2007

Ric:

Good looking rolling block.What type of action is it? I have an old Remington #l black powder action and a 50-70 is one of the possibilities I am considering. Something needs to be done with it, can't just hang there ya know.

R. Dupraz

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RicinYakima posted this 13 February 2007

Daryl: It has a 0.510 groove diameter and 0.500 bore with 6 grooves. My problem was finding a mould that would cast small enough bullets. One thing to consider is softening up your alloy to increase obturation.

R. Dupraz, I am not a RB historian, but have been told that it is a Republic of Mexico black powder iron action, which accounts for the nice color casehardening. After reading the modern hunting stories about shooting through bison with shoulder shots, it has plenty of power if you can live with the trajectory.

Ric

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Daryl S posted this 14 February 2007

Ric - I've been going over my notes from the 90's, and every time I shot the 520gr. and 450 pointed bullets, they show tipping with oblong holes, more so with the longer 520gr., both Lyman bullets. My rifling is the 3 groove. The shortened bullet, at 420gr., same .515” diamter, shows beautifully round holes. : It will be interesting to see how Sundog's '59 barrel does when he gets it running. It should be identical to mine in bore, chamber and rifling. he chamber of these lined barrels is more of a straight taper, rather than typical chambers of today. As I noted above, mine will allow a properly seated bullet in a 1.920” length case. : I am thinking about sending a couple of the 420gr. bullets from the modified mould to Veral and having him make me up a mould that casts them at .516” in WW metal, identical in other aspects like square grease grooves. I'd want a true flat nose as I put a dimple HP I put on the plunger for mine. It's a pain to use, but sorks OK. I made the plunger out of brass, so it heats instantly when replaced in the blocks. It's just a a pain having a separate plunger. I had bored the blocks from below, so the plunger runs up to shorten the bullet. : I'll try replacing the front blade with one a bit wider, and flat topped. The original sight is quite pointed and difficult to postion on the target consistantly. I cannot complain about the accuracy so far with both black powder and smokless. : Herco appears to be best in accuracy, with 4198 opening groups another 1 1/2". ; OxYoke now sells a BP bullet lube that comes in sticks. I got mine from trackofthewolf and handlubed the last 420's I shot, putting an unlubed oxYoke wad beneath the bullet, with both the Herco and 4198 loads. The 4198 load had the full length 450gr. bullet, showed some tipping and went into a 5 shot group 3-1/2” x 2-1/2". The dimple nosed modified bullet's 5 shot group was 1.1” wide x 3.5” high. The elevation on that one was due to holding into the black for 2 of the shots, which made a single oblong hole at the top of the group. The other three of the group at the bottom, are in 1.375", so that load shows great promise. I merely need to get a better sight picture - the Sharps 'battle' sights are pretty close together on it's 22” barrel, but with proper holding, I'm hoping I can run run sub 2” groups at 100 meters with it. : As to your problems with BP, I suggest one of the BP specific lubes. The OxYoke, SPG and Lyman BPG both work, as does Beeswax/Vaseline. : As to alloy, I'm shooting mostly 1/2 and 1/2 Wheelweights and pure lead - pretty soft. I did try some pure lead bullets, but don't have anything specific in my notes (damn) about their performance. : Someone on another forum was talking about BeeKeepers saying they were having a big die-off of honey bees due to mites or other killer of bees. Might be a good idea to stock up on beeswax?

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Daryl S posted this 24 March 2007

I was just re-reading over Ken Water's Pet Loads article on the .50/70 and noted he mentioned that the older Lyman .515142 mould, casting a flat nosed bullet, used to be a hollow point design. Some time ago I had thought that perhaps converting my mould into a hollow point might allow it to shoot accurately in the 42” twist. As/is, they tip and eventually keyhole from the slow twist.

:  Hollow pointing would shift weight rearward but would it be enough to make the bullet shoot well?  The other idea I had was to mill off the base band of the mould blocks, thereby shortening and lightening the bullet to about 420gr. Since it is a flat nose, it would be appropriate for any twist faster than about 44".

: Testing hollowpoints would be easiest first, as a small centre/drill can be used to bore a nose rather quickly.

: What say, anyone?  Will hollow-pointing shift weight enough to allow them to shoot accurately and hold that accuracy?

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RicinYakima posted this 24 March 2007

Daryl,

I really don't know about the hollow pointing. My thought is that it would move the center of mass farther to the rear in comparison to the center for form.

Why don't you try the hollow pointing and then try some with the hollow basing. If you have access to a lathe, cut a 3/8” hollow base and run a comparison test.

Ric

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CB posted this 24 March 2007

Daryl,

The bore twist-rate/bullet formulas use diameter and bullet length for appropriate twist. Weight isn't a factor, but we all know it still does to some extent. Shifting your weight with hollow-point or hollow-base should be an interesting test. Us inquisitive minds would like to know. I have a 22 twist 40-70 that has never shot well, so yer results may get me to give the old rifle another try.

If you decide to mill, try milling 1/3 of the drive band first. I don't think it'll take much for a change in down-range performance......................Dan

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Daryl S posted this 25 March 2007

22” sounds like a light bullet (270gr.) twist to me, in the .40/70. I should think 16” to 18” might be better.

: As to the base band and the bullet length overall, it will need pretty much all of it and the grease groove as well to reduce the legnth to work with the formula. I know some guys don't put much faith in the Greenhill formula and I personally find it gives too slow a twist. Stability on paper at 100 yards is one thing, but holding stability to 500 yards or stability while expanding or penetrating bone inside an animal is another. This is where we found the 48” twist in .50 and .54 to be so bad, evne with short slugs.

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CB posted this 26 March 2007

Daryl,

Your question has been wondering around in my wondering mind trying to figure where I've read about such ballistic influences.

In Harold Vaughn's Rifle Accuracy Facts, he made a jacketed bullet with a plastic insert in the rear of the copper jacket to shift the center of gravity forward to get a heavy 270 bullet to shoot in a 1-16” twist. A lot of jacketed match bullets already have a 'light' hollow pointed nose, so Harold musta known that the CG had to be forward to stabilize.

You could 'hollow point' the base, drilling up only half way into the bullet. An 1/8” bit might be enough. Trouble is, it'd sure be hard to make a hollow-base bullet with a base-pour bullet mould! Guess if it would work drilling the base out, you would only need a few fer huntin'...............Dan

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Daryl S posted this 27 March 2007

You are right - I was approaching this from the wrong end. Hollow based bullets do shoot from slower twists than the same length solid or HP. Running a 3/8” centredrill into the base would be easy and accurate as well. I'll have to try it. I have the 450gr. mould I turned into a 420gr. flat nose, but the separate plunger that shortens the nose is a pain to cast with.  I'll try some of tho0se big Lyman bullets, with a bored base and see how they shoot.

: Thanks for 'reminding me' about the base being the one to hollow, not the nose.

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cat1870 posted this 13 July 2007

I shoot an 1863 Sharps New Model, .50-70 Gvt. I had the barrel re-lined 2-3 years ago & took a buffalo in Kansas a year & a half ago with it. Use the Lyman mold 515141 with pure lead, spg lube & ffg. The rifle will shoot 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards. Also have a combination front sight & a Axtel(Riflesmith) tang sight. Nice sight combination.

Cat

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Daryl S posted this 14 July 2007

Cat, from what I've read in some publications, the .50/70 was successfully used on more buffalo than all the other buffalo guns put together. This is understandable due to the excellent availability of .50/70 ammo at aobut any fort, as well as the government continually selling off the 'old' .50/70 guns as the newer ones replaced them. This flood of .50/70's on the fontier coincided with the big 'thrust' in baffalo hunting, time wise. I would much rather have a good shooting .50/70 than the same gun in .45/70. I have an affinity for larger bullets, I guess, and that round is such a nice one, easy to load and quite accurate. : The Herco loads I spoke of earlier, 18gr. to 21gr. shoot with good accuracy and very light recoil for the velocity. From my carbine barrel, they run 1,180fps to 1,260fps with 450gr. bullets. Out to 300 yards or so, I don't see any advantage to the smaller bores, from a hunting standpoint.

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cat1870 posted this 14 July 2007

Daryl S.

Good to hear from you.

I like the old gun & also have a .50-90 Sharps we built up around a Sile Action about 25 years ago.  I had Wolfe (1st owner of Shiloh) put a barrel on it when he was still on Long Island, N.Y.

I haven't really shot it much but a pard borrowed it for a few years & shot cowboy long range using smokeless.  He did ok but I don't recall him winning any trophys.

 

Cat

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Daryl S posted this 14 July 2007

The problem I had with the Shilo Sharps was the slow 36” twist. Apparently this was the same twist used in the originals. Had they a 24” or even a 28” twist, they'd not have had the reputation of poor accuracy at long range. With the factory 36” twist, the bullets became very unstable and lacked accuracy past about 300 yards, according to the buffalo hunters. Sharps was on a learning curve in those days, and put in much faster twists in their subsequent .45's and .40's, vastly improving their long range accuracy. Winchester was even worse for slow twists in the .50 cal rifles. : Taylor (brother) and I re-barreled a Sharps and Eey-tie RB with heavy McGowen blanks chambered for the .50 Alaskan. .348 brass is easy to get here as Winchester seems to make a batch every year. We went with this chambering just due to brass availability. Then, .50 2-1/2” brass was hard to come by, not so now, apparently. ; With 520 to 550gr. bullets that 24” twist was great, giving me 1-1/2” 5 shot groups at both 100 and 200 meters. We did only a little shooting at 450 meters but managed 9” to 10” 5 shot groups just elbow resting off the pickup truck's hood - Tayoor's Sharps with 520gr. Lyman bullets and mine with 550gr. RCBS, both in straight WW alloy, Beswax/Vaseline lube, shot without wiping. (OxYoke wad between 85gr. 2F GOEX and bullets) Putting the OxYOke wad between powder and bullet shrunk groups by more than 1/2.

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DonH posted this 20 August 2007

W.F. Cody made the “Buffalo Bill” reputation with the original .50-70 BP loading. 2 to 3 inch groups aren't too shabby from an 1860s barel.

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Zad Fnark posted this 03 September 2008

I have a 1866 Springfield (2nd Allin) that I've been trying to fine tune.  Using Lee's 450 gr mould I would get about 1 in 3 bullets that would tumble.  I was using 55 gr of Hodgdon 777, which probably wasn't the best choice.  I'm also doubtful of using wheel weights for bullets.

I have also tried Lyman's 395 gr bullet (wheel weights), and went to Goex Pinnacle.  The shorter bullet solved the tumbling, but I still get a 9” group at 50 yds.

In the meantime, I'm taking a step back to research the correct way.  I would rather use FFG as a last resort, 'cause I've gotten to liking the fast cleanup.  One fellow I corresponded with at http://www.trapdoorcollector.com>http://www.trapdoorcollector.com swears by American Pioneer Powder for his loads.  I've used that for years in my musket and will probably try that next.  It's a bit coarse, so I'll use Lee dippers.  I should also find a plain lead/tin alloy, too.  If I recall, there are a few .50-70 loads listed there also.  Being that the '66 and a 42” twist, I don't know how helpful those would be to you Sharps guys.

I haven't seen it mentioned yet, so I'll plug the book I'm digesting:

http://www.rayrilingarmsbooks.com/cgi-bin/rrb455.cgi/9246.html?id=R8ahbge5>http://www.rayrilingarmsbooks.com/cgi-bin/rrb455.cgi/9246.html?id=R8ahbge5

The 50-70 Shooter's Handbook  -Croft Barker  Cistern Publishing

I'm in a similar boat with my model 1888 Springfield.  Fortunately, I also got the Wolf book on 45-70.

Just rambling a bit,

Ed

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Magnum Wheel Man posted this 04 September 2008

I wanted to post to keep track of this thread... a couple years ago, I bought a Martini single shot converted to 50-70, with all the brass, some loaded rounds, some cast bullets, & a custom made bullet mold, & loading dies... from a buddy of mine...

I can't offer up any info on it, as I've only shot it a few tmes, & not loaded any rounds yet... ( but hope to play with loading up a few this winter )

heres my rifle anyway... ( bottom rifle in this pic )

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Nuther Mug posted this 09 September 2008

Hello Gents.. I got great accuracy with a 1/42 twist NY State Militia Rolling Block 50-70 & the Lee 450... I posted about it a while back here:

http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/viewtopic/id/14138>http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/viewtopic/id/14138

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cat1870 posted this 21 September 2008

I'm taking the old 1863 .50-70 Gvt. hunting again this Nov.  This time we're off to Northern Maine after white Tail deer.

For the past week or two I've been working on getting an accurate load for the old gun.   So far I've been able to get between 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches at 70 yards with 3 to 4 shots.  After that the groups begins to open to 4 -5 inches.. fowling I guess.

I'm using Goex FFG, 55 grains from a 24” drop tube, F215 primer, Starline brass, Circle Fly .060 wad, SPG lube, 1/8 compression, and an LBT 510-450SP mold of Wheel weights.  These are 11 on the BHN scale.

I tried pure lead but it was leaving a bit more leading then I likes so went to WW's. That seems to be working quite well so far.

Cat

 

 

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docbob posted this 01 August 2009

Hello Ric,  I just saw your nice rolling block rifle in .50-70! Very good looking! I used to have A New York Militia rifle that had been reblued. Sold it but have kept my Springfield Model 1871 which has a great bore. I've shot Lyman's 51541 with 65 grains eqiv. of R-S Pyrodex and 27.0 grains of 5744, Fed. 210 primer and TP wad in Dixie brass. It's been so long since I've fired it I don't recall how well it shot.

Several years ago I passed on a Navy Arms rolling block in .50-70 and wish I hadn't . I had an early one in .45-70 and shot it with felt hat wads behind the bullet so the bore shined like glass. Not the most authenic looking but they do shoot.

Doc

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excess650 posted this 01 August 2009

Some years back I had a New York State RB.  It shot surprisingly well with straight BP loads, but duplexing caused the bullets to keyhole.  Personally, I would shoot ONLY BP in an old rifle.

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