Question for Dale53 re: Lee 310FPGC in 44 mag, Herc 2400 data

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  • Last Post 23 August 2011
corerf posted this 12 August 2011

Question For Dale53,

Dale I know your well read on the Lee 310FPGC in 44 Mag. I only have used it in my 445 SM. I am loading for a Ruger SRH and have loaded up to 19.5 gr of 2400.

I started at 17 gr, finding much confirmation that this was a safe start and that the 300gr J bullet Alliant data was at 19 gr max.

And so I have set up some volleys, but also have 3 rounds for pressure test at 19, 19.3 and 19.5.

All bullets are seated to a 1.730 OAL, thats the shortest seat on the bottom crimp groove and are heavily roll crimped. I use the 1.730 as that puts the case mouth right against the face of the crimp groove.

I am shooting today so if I dont get a response, I am sure that signs will develop and hold me back if indeed I have gone over budget. Typically I am able to get close to a full grain of headroom when using J bullet data with a good cast design.

Anyway, wanted to see if you have some hard, fast data at that 19gr limit or near there. Ill pull any that are a problem.

Anyone else that can chime in with solid data, please advise.

Yes these are hunting loads and I am looking for max power from 2400, not max power period, just from 2400. I have 296 and willfully choose not to use it. I don't need to wring out all that I can from the gun and bullet, just from 2400.

Thanks in advance Dale. It is the best bullet I have ever fired in a handgun, I am on my second mold due to it being a LEE but....... the mold sucks...... bullet is awesome.

Idaho mule deer will absorb one this year on October 10th or there about, from either an SRH or my 445SM, depending on distance! The bullet does wonders at 200+yrds.

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Dale53 posted this 12 August 2011

corerf; My only powders for full charge loads with both 250 gr and 310 gr (Lee C430-310-RF)are H110, 296, and a slow lot of WC 820. They are all so similar (in my particular lots) that you can use the same loading data (confirmed by chronograph). I have ALWAYS used the Lee by seating LONG. It IS necessary with any bullet using the slow burning ball powders to use adequate neck tension. The expander stem needs to be several thousandths less than bullet diameter.

Unfortunately, I have developed no loading data with 2400 (there is nothing wrong with 2400, it's just that I prefer the ball powders for maximum loads). All of my loading for my several .44 magnums has been “full” loads (not necessarily maximum, but certainly .44 magnum loads).

I am glad you have found what most of us have, that the Lee C430-310-RF is an extremely accurate bullet in the .44 Magnum (certainly at 100 yards and below). Further, the large meplat guarantees maximum “smack” when the target is struck.

If your problematical Lee moulds have been the two cavity moulds, I suggest you try one in six cavities. Lee's six cavity bullet moulds are superior to their two cavity moulds.

Dale53

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corerf posted this 12 August 2011

Six cav molds: REALLY???????

I needed to know that. It takes a taste of lapping for the LEEs to drop clean but they do alright thereafter. I just hate that they swing temp so quick from overheat to overcool.

I will have to buy a six cav in the 310. Glad they are machined better.

I will let you in on at least accuracy data tonight for 2400. So far I have found several indices with 2400 proving that 19gr is the end of the line for most guns. I wont have chrono data till I can get to the outdoors.

Thanks Dale.

Mike

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6pt-sika posted this 12 August 2011

corerf wrote: I will have to buy a six cav in the 310. Glad they are machined better.  

I don't use the Lee 430-310GC in a 44 MAG , but I do have one of their 6 cavity molds for it and I gotta say it does very nicely for me dropping from the mold and in the rifles I use the bullet !

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corerf posted this 12 August 2011

Alright, 2400 kinda sucks at this point for the 44 mag and 310gr bullets.

At 17gr, seated in bottom groove, crimped very hard, older CCI 300's (I will try some fresh winchesters next week), a 4 inch group at 50 feet, open sights.

17.7gr, same/same, tightened up a taste.

18.4gr, same/same/ got a five shot at 1 inch with a flyer high by 2.5 inch.

19, same/same, group moved left hard 2.5 inch and opened up. 19.3- moved a taste further left, very open

19.5, slightest signs of extraction tension, above 19gr very flat SMOOTH primers, it ironed out the breech mill marks even.

Going past 18.5 was a waste of time. I have had some interesting CCI300 groups with my Kimber, maybe from this same lot, fairly old. Similar kind of vertical oddities. I loaded for a LEO friend who also had interesting groups. I changed up to fresher Win LP's and the load made very tight groups. So that may be part of the problem.

But I will toss some 296 down the road with mag primers and see how we do for accuracy. I can live with the mid 18gr load but I do need to see what it will do at 25 and 50 yrds before I can be sure.

I was glad to see that even at 19.5, there were no marked excess pressure signs aside for that “love” feeling on extraction. Not tight, just smooth and making full contact all the way out.

I will try 17.9, 18.3 and 18.5 to see if there is a sweet spot.

I also shot some 433RB with 3.6gr Unique, crimped in with std primer for a grouse load. Like a cap gun, no lie. Most of the Unique fell out of the gun. Had very obvious velocity problems with up to 4 inch vertical dispersion. I had a few 3 round bursts of 1/2 inch at 50 feet, but then psyco flyer at 5 inch high or low. So.....

is there a cure for powder that loose in that big of a case?? I don't want to play with dacron, it's a waste of time for a grouse load. It was cool though. Data from Speer #10.

Any suggestions?

I think the 2400 would do better with the lighter bullets like Elmer would shoot. I think I will conclude what Dale has, 296 for the long fatties.

Any input would be welcomed.

Shooting Ruger SRH, factory trigger but action has been reworked heavily. The trigger springs will be ordered to get that pull down to 2 lbs, my liking. It's still a very smooooooth, 6-8 lbs. It sucks.

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tturner53 posted this 13 August 2011

My 2 cavity Lee for that bullet has been a gem. But I'm naturally lucky. In my 7 1/2” SBH it stays under 3” at 50 yds. with either a red dot or 2x6 Bushnell scope on it. In someone else's hands they'd probably go tighter, I'm also naturally shaky and vision impaired. Did win some postal match money with that combo though. Thinking of using it in a Bullseye match just for a hoot. I've found a mid-range charge of AA#9(very similar to WC820) works well. Shot up all my 2400 in a 30-06.

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corerf posted this 13 August 2011

Tim,

Have you done a trigger job on the SBH? I have wolffs coming and have already massaged the surfaces, it was silky before but is like a rolex, but a heavy rolex, now. My groups wont shrink until the massive pull gets reduced.

I just installed a Hogue Monogrip on it. I have an SP101 shorty and put a Hogue on it, wow what a difference. The Ruger grip is nice but slippery, thin and I have fairly huge hands. I need girth!

Also have coming with the springs, Marbles Fiber front sight. I found that on my Kimber, my groups shrank by 50% due to the New Tritium Fiber Optic sights. I can make a sight picture easily, usually I struggle. My vision is going away now that I passed the 40 mark.

Hope that with sights, grip, springs...... fresh primers and a stout backup load of 296, I can find a hunting load that will ensure my shooting out to the 75 yard mark clean. Thats all I need.

I have pulled the scope on the SBH.

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Dale53 posted this 13 August 2011

corerf; Using a round ball with very light loads of Unique is not a winner.

You need a FAST burning powder when you are using light loads. Unique is a medium burner and works best in a rather narrow pressure range (mid range it works WELL).

I suggest Titegroup for your light loads with a round ball.

However, round balls will richochet from nearly any surface when fired as light loads (low velocity). On the other hand, a 200-240 gr bullet with light loads is a LOT better in that regard. I have had low velocity round balls to come right back towards me. That was also reported by Elmer Keith, fifty or so years ago. It seems that physics hasn't changed...

When using light gallery loads, you could hardly do better than a full wadcutter. There was a 200 gr dbl ended wadcutter group buy (Lee made the moulds in six cavity). You might try the “Cast Boolits” forum's classified ads to see if anyone there has one they might sell.

On the other hand, the commonly available Lee 429-200 RF is a good design and can be had in a six cavity mould for a very reasonable price at F&M Reloading, Midway, Natchez, or Graf & Sons.

Four grs of Bullseye, Clays, or Titegroup should make an EXCELLENT gallery load. If you want/need a clean hole cut in the target, my preference is a Mihec H&G #503 (250 gr Keith design). It just doesn't get any better than that.

I have often taken edible small game with a large caliber revolver. You would think that it would blow them apart. However, when hunting rabbits in the snow, I often took them in the head (when close) and 25 yard shots I would shoot them through the slats. One shot stops, a single 3/4” hole through the ribs with little meat damage.

When handgun hunting for grouse, I often carried an S&W Model 624 when bird hunting with a shotgun. Occasionally, I would break a wing on a grouse. They can run like a deer, and if chased often run into a briar patch (in SW Ohio) and would take a bulldozer to get to them. However, they would let you approach close enough to clip their heads off. I have done that with .45's, .44's, .38 Specials and .32's.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Dale53

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corerf posted this 13 August 2011

I will try the bullseye deal. I have to stick with the RB, I have it already and it is an amenity not a need. Cant invest in the light load deal at all.

I will pay attention re: them bounding back at me or others.

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tturner53 posted this 14 August 2011

My SBH is original, haven't gotten around to it yet, but I will. Finally did get an RCBS trigger pull gauge, I'll check the SBH. Might be a good winter project, maybe go with the Wolfe springs too. I have a 1954 K38 coming from gunbroker, supposedly excellent but with some action work done, desribed as 'light'. Maybe my search for a Bullseye gun is about over. If you're going hunting with a handgun scoped or not Uncle Mike's makes a handy nylon shoulder rig, get that hog leg off your hip, it's more comfortable when hiking through rough country.

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corerf posted this 18 August 2011

Update:

Loaded Lee 310's with both 2400 (mid 60's stuff in the little square cans) and fresh Win 296.

With 2400, went back to 18.2 and 18.5 gr, as that was the best group. USED WIN LRG PISTOL for STD or MAGNUM primers instead of the old CCI300's. NO HELP was obtained. Crimped really very hard, the cases were of a mix and not of one lot. Also the cases had not been trimmed and so some of the vertical errors came from varying case capacities. Still group at 45 feet was horrible.

Gun has wolffs and a full trigger job, plus I added the Marbles FO front sight and that sure makes it easier on my eyes.

For the Win 296, I ran from 18.5/19/19.5gr in three shot volleys due to lack of bullets to load. Again same primer as above with a mix of W-W and FEd cases. Untrimmed I must add. Better groups, still huge. All groups have two holes touching and then a freak that went low or high by 2 inches. For a while I thought it was me. It wasn't.

The 19gr or 296 has a lot less bark than the 8.5 of 2400. Man that 2400 makes some recoil.

I did a fired length check of the brass and found about .005 variation in the 296 loads. Each 3 round volley had 2 cases of one mfgr and an odd duck. Also, each volley had two length consistent cases with one odd duck out .005 or maybe more.

And so back when I was doing my Dan Wesson 357 workups, I trimmed all cases, used same lot, fresh primers, fresh powder, etc. Got amazing groups, found a load easily, etc.

Here I have just grabbed some 2-3x fired brass, untrimmed, old primers, really old powder with what have been quality bullets, lube and checks--- sized and formed near perfect, and weight sorted.

So I will now do the “due diligence” and trim the cases as it seems that this is the likely factor. I will use weight sorted same mfgr cases and probably use REAL mag primers like CCI's, fresh, with the OLD and NEW powder.

Nothing like doing it 5 times rather than once. Trigger job is great though.

I have been shooting open sights, kneeling at the indoor range which is not the steadiest position, but thats all I can do.

Also bullets have been of an alloy that is pushing near 30 BHN.... certainly with a GC I do not need this strength. So I will likely cast of WW on the next few as well.

Dale, how many lube grooves do you fill?

Thanks in advance for the help

Mike

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Dale53 posted this 19 August 2011

Dale, how many lube grooves do you fill?

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codarnall posted this 19 August 2011

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellBookContents.htm

Anyone interested in 44 Mag should read the article on the cylinder and throat assessments associated with leading.

First the 44 Mag wasn't intended to be a pea shooter. I measured the cylinder chambers in both my MOD 29's and I will assume safely Smith understands what they are doing. FIRST of all 12 chambers measure .434. The pistols are years apart. It seems I've been removing quite a bit of lead with my Lewis lead remover. One is a 29-3, the other a 629. I use moderate loads, 8-10 Unique. I would opine the max pressure of 40000psi limitation is achievable with such a freebore in the chambers with max loadings. Glens' article points to using Jacketed rounds which does make sense. So for moderate loads in the magnum one might as well bought a long colt. Thank you Jeff in NZ for pointing me to this article.

Charlie

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corerf posted this 19 August 2011

Not sure where the reply was going, but I dont have a leading issue, nor do I have tight throats on the SRH. I have superb measured throats on SRH, super tight on a blackhawk (356/357).

I have read virtually all of Glens articles that apply to any cartridge or shooting that I am involved with.

I would refer you to many articles from the premier smiths in revolver tuning. Most will indicate that even with gargantuan cyl throats, they dont care. The first place the bullet touches metal leaving the brass is the forcing cone and even then, “should” be minimal. The bullet shold darn near freebore deep into the barrel throat and gently engage the lands. Then a seal should.

I suppose that if your shooting a 431 bullet in a 434 throat, then you have MASSIVE blow by and hence your leading problem, PB or GC'd. I have 4325 throats and thats .0015 over my .4312 bullet diameter.

Again I have no leading, none, not even a swipe, streak nor any on my hands from the exhaust.

I have a “loading” problem. I have failed to do my part and will likely find tonight that mag primers and case trimming will have caused the SRH to shoot very well. I have not used Win 269 for anything even though I have several pounds of it. As well, 2400 has only been used in rifle calibers. As of late, due to deer season, I have wanted to generate a wide open accurate hunting load for use with 300 class bullets and based on an SRH i bought a year ago but have fired only twice in that year, with factory ammo.

So I am having a 41 year old learning curve using very, very old 2400.... which upon PROPER reading, I have surmised needs MAG primers...  plus I was a lazy fool with case trimming and mixing brass. I should have expected worse.

I personally don't trust any gun manufacturer, I only trust aftermarket folks who earn their living on fixing ill-fated guns from big mfgrs. Smith and Wesson included. I make no assumptions for the MFGRS.

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delmarskid1 posted this 19 August 2011

I have read that mixed brass will give uneven crimp tensions. Brass that has been fired multiple times will have weaker crimps as well. I try to save some new brass for load work and hunting loads for this reason. I like unique and used 2400 with the 245g bullets. I've gone to 296 or 110 for all the full power stuff. You just can't make the numbers without the slower powders in any bullet weight range. The accuracy is good as well.  I like the Wolf spring kits. They go in pretty easy and with a little stoning I've gotten a couple of real nice Blackhawk triggers.

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Dale53 posted this 19 August 2011

Dale, how many lube grooves do you fill?

Well, we are going to try this AGAIN! I fill both the lube groove and the one with the gas check.

I seat the bullet long, with one crimp groove showing above the case.

Dale53

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corerf posted this 20 August 2011

Glad you caught the missing info.

So your not using a Gas Check!

Interesting!

I have been using White Label 2700+ in both grooves, and a garbage slip on Hornady GC that is more like slip off. For my 445 SM, I had been using another box purchased from midway, was the snap on type. I then dove into a box of same model Hornday checks, except they are the slip on and they were “gun show” deals. They stay on and wont be a bore obstruction but i dont like it.

I have been contemplating, once I find the load(s) that work, trying no check.

I also loaded some “other caster” WW 429421's with same lube, .431 and up to 23.5gr of 2400. Just 5 of each. Those are top end, from 22-23.5 in half gr increments. Book start data is about 21 gr. Also loaded some same bullet, foulers with 21gr (ten of them) 2400.

Have reduced the 2400 loads to 13,14,15,16 with CCI550's, seated long, lee 310's. Also loaded same OAL and bullet, 296's at 20, 21, 21.5. Seems like folks have found love at 21.5 with ok accuracy. I think mag primers will be the key.

the few 296's I shot earlier were double cuts and then one that dropped by 3 inch. Or double cuts and one that went UP by 3 inch.

If I could have had the velocity exact, there would have been 3/8 inch of windage error for both groups.

Never shot 296 before and was using the Win LPP's for STD and MAG. I am beginning to believe I have been having ignition problems. Seems like the 296 for sure, lost massive velocity on the drop outs. The 2400 was just all over the place.

I Have been hunting down 2400 data. No one gives their OAL_---- kinda pisses me off. So Lee data and Alliant, plus Reloaders Reference all give two absolutes.

Lee at a max of 13.5 Alliant max at 19 (for a 300 gr j bullet)

Lee doesn't give an OAL except on lead page, 1.6 in.

Alliant gives 1.665.

I was running 1.71 on untrimmed cases at bottom groove. So I had a substantial pressure safety margin when running up to 19 gr.

But..... seems like 17-19gr has not been used but by a few loaders and data proliferated. So I am questioning (not able to use my chrono due to indoor range rules) whether or not I have gone way over budget on 2400 for what the system will tolerate.

Hence why I have throttled back to 13-16gr 2400 (old 2400) with CCI550's as prescribed in most Speer data books, RCBS cast, etc. I think my OAL is long by .1 so my pressures will be lower but if after all the case prep and sorting, etc I can get some .5 inch groups, the mystery will be solved.

I never did mention that I was given an old unmarked box of 240gr cast. They popped with lee oomph that Winchester White box, shot like they had eyes and proved the gun was a ringer. Group went 1 inch wide horizontal for four shots with 1/8 inch vertical string, plus a flyer I created. So essentially a single hole when you eliminate me!

I have deduced they were factory Remington 240gr, from the 70's, the real accurate ones that have made most gun rags in articles. They were amazing while they lasted.

That is the once fired brass that I have loaded, case weights are less than 1 gr ES post trim/debur.

I have a few more 240's and will try a basic run of Unique for accuracy as well.

I might get to the range tomorrow again. Couldn't make it tonight.

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corerf posted this 20 August 2011

SUCCESS!

Will edit the post with some pix and some velocity data but DALE RULES!

So the mag primers were the problem.

All data at 25 yards. Wind blowing at 45 deg, at 10+ MPH.

Started with a significantly dirty barrel just to make matters even cloudier. Shot 6 barrel warmers, 21 gr of 2400 on STANDARD?MAGNUM Winchester primers on untrimmed cases with some unknown WW alloy 429421's, softer with White Label Lube and sized to 431. Shot six rounds for a sub 3/4 inch group. HUH??? So there is some value to a STD primer with old 2400 and the right bullet. 1411, 1426, 1403, 1426, 1414, 1409

Ran the dose up to 22 grain (WITH CCI550's), 2.25 inch group for three shots. 1477, 1446, 1475

Up to 23gr, sub 1.25 inch, 4 shots, 1518, 1542, 1498, 1502

Up to 23.5gr, group fell apart bad, 1564, 1543, 1545. Impact point moved dramatically, for no apparent reason.

Moved to Win 296.

Lee 310GC, White Label Lube, CCI 550's for all strings. Seated long.

5@ 20gr, 1251, 1256, 1273, 1257, 1233 with 1.5 inch group.

5@ 20.5gr, 1295, 1273, 1285, 1264, 1284, with 1.5 inch group.

5@ 21gr, 1348, 1350, 1317, 1316, 1308 with 1.25 inch group, real round and nice.

5@ 21.5gr, 1355, 1352, 1376, 1380, 1288 (uncalled flyer????????) with group opened to 3 inch.

Now at this time, I have leaded the throats visibly on at least two of the chambers. I had not cleaning gear with me. And at this time my ability to hold and tolerate the abuse is done. 6 months ago I had a complete forearm muscle separation, which has not and will not be repaired. I have two funky balls of meat in my arm and have recovered but my trigger finger when the arm is NOT fully extended tries to use a muscle that doesn't exist any more. And so my arm tires fairly quick now, 6 months ago, I was immortal with heavy recoil from ANYTHING. Now my arm looses it's ability to hold the weapon and I get that tearing kind of pain. Thats where I was with the end of 296 testing.

I believe the leaded throats are causing some errors in the actual velocities clocked. It seems like there is consistency to 3 good clean shots with ES of under 5, then two break out. I will clean the gun tonight and verify my suspicions. I bet I have three chambers trashed and 3 clean. I probably pushed the unknown alloy 429421's too hard for the BHN of the 20 year old bullets. (got them on a reload gear buy unexpectedly, were unsized and looked pretty good, just very soft)

I was able to take a line break and get the last bit done.

H2400, really old (late 60's production), CCI550's, Lee 310GC, White Label Lube Seated long.

5@ 13gr, almost no recoil, like a 38 special target load. 885, 880, 839, 855, 861, about 1.25 inch, but so low and right that I was off the target and on the backer board.

5@ 14gr, 987, 942, 943, 942, 916, 6 inch group. Now cutting high by 3 inch and centered above bull. DYNAMIC heh?

5@ 15gr, 1081, 1095, 1078, 1067, 1085, 2.5 inch group, all deviation was in windage, horizontal--- Wind was getting fierce and I was not timing shots between gusts.

5@ 16ge, 1176, 1171, 1180, 1161, 1178 (NICE!), 5/8 inch of vertical, 1.5 inch of horizontal, one called low shot, my bad. Group was tightening up, vels are very good, I wasn't doing my part at this time and 16 gr was a GOOD performer.

Win 296, simply awesome. 2400, up past 16 I believe it will close the gap and work much better, but performance will not be where 296 is for sure and I don't think consistency will be on par.... but the last string was lower ES that the 296.

All doses machine charged on a Uniflow. I skipped critically measuring each drop. Didn't feel I would need or see the added value.

All shooting was with OPEN SIGHTS and without my glasses on. So a better shooter would generate better groups.

Bottom line is that I did find the correction or better said, impairment in the 2400 loading data. It needs the mag primers. Yes I did get good performance from the foulers, really good performance. Can't answer why the Win StD's worked so well with 429421's and 2400 but it did. It didn't do well behind the 300 grainers... thats seems to be a consistent fact offered by most shooters documenting online. Seems like ALL shooters using the lee 310, always use 296/110. And the 429421 shooters seem to lean to full power from 2400 and not 296. It is an interesting split. Then most accuracy shooters are running fast powder, like Unique for practice and bullseye type work.

So I think the lesson I can take away.. to date.. is that when you need big bullet performance, go with 296/110. When a 240/250 is used, 296/2400/110 for full power, faster powders for light shooters and bullseye.

Seems like I should know that but again, I have used 4227 for almost 30 years, for full house loads. It's not a ball, burns clean and at lower pressures/temps, really cant overfill a case in MOST CASES, ACCURATE AS HECK and is happy with STD primers at ANY CASE DENSITY. And so...

Thanks to all that chipped in some info, especially to Dale.

Gotta ask though Dale, are shooting that playing card @ 100 with a scope? I took the Leupold off so I could pack it on my hip and still carry a rifle for deer this year. I can put alot of ammo on a playing card at 100 with a scope, not sure about this 44 though. If your doing it open sights, dang man you are scary good.

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Dale53 posted this 23 August 2011

corerf; When I had eyes I DID do it with iron sights (playing card at 100 yards) as did several of my shooting friends and fellow club members.

Now, it is JUST with scopes. Although, on occasion, I do shoot a good group with irons. It just takes SO-o-o much more work!:X

Dale53

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corerf posted this 23 August 2011

Right ON! My next step is to soften the alloy to about 16-18, AC with and w/o check. See if better obturation at the cylinder will tighten the groups on the loads I found good.

I am going to have to try the playing card.

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