.222 Rem. re-visited

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  • Last Post 09 May 2011
PETE posted this 03 May 2011

  To any interested,

  Finally, after a coupla years, I've found the rifle I've been waiting for. A Rem. 700 VLS in .222.

 Looked over the search topics on this caliber and find not much has been put up on it since a few years back. Am wondering if anyone has done any work with this caliber and what their success has been.

  Really liking the small bores I thought I'd like to see what I can work up and shoot in the Season Benchrest Postal Matches with this gun. I doubt if I'll even come close to winning but just want to see if the .22 caliber can be made competitive.

  I won't dwell to long on the May 1st target I turned in. Shot a 65. Can't blame the weather as it was about as perfect a day as you could want. But having only gotten the rifle in early April and just basically, due to all the bad weather, not having any time to even begin to work a load up, just shot the best I had. The good part is I don't THINK it can get any worse. :)

  Would like to cuss and discuss this caliber with anybody who's willing.

Pete

 

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 03 May 2011

Pete - good to hear ya. I've got a .222R chambered Martini Cadet I'm just starting with. (By the bye, will be passing through Iowa at the end of the month - joining a few friends from CR going out to S.Dakota to hunt prarie dogs.)

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nimrod posted this 03 May 2011

I don't have a 222 Rem but I have been shooting a 222 Mag in a Sako with a 14” twist and have shot some very nice groups with the Lyman 225415 cast in lino using 10 to 10.5 grains of 2400. Hope this helps you some.

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PETE posted this 03 May 2011

TRK,

  Well, lots of luck with the Prairie Dog hunt and hope the weather gets better. Right now we've had frost warnings the last two days and again tonite. That colder than normal days with rain and wind will make your trip, should I say interesting? :)

 A friend of mine has just had CPA make up a .22 rimmed barrel for his 44 1/2 so I'm sure he'd be interested in any info you'd wish to pass along about what your coming up with. So would I for that matter as I've often wondered if the rimmed and rimless cases shot equally well or due to the headspacing have slightly different “quirks” to get them shooting well.

nimrod,

  From the load you mention I gather your getting around 2000 fps. Oddly if I go with that kind of mv's I haven't had any luck. Even using a 50/50 mix of Lino and WW's. But, I'd like to try out your load but the 225415 mould I've got isn't worth a hoot. Two cavity and both .0015 to .002 out of round. The only mould I have now that's decent is a two cavity NEI 45 225 GC with only the rear cavity being usable.

  The bullet I used for the May 1, Season Benchrest Postal was a Lyman 225462 weighing about 60 grs. THe big problem with that bullet is Lyman recommends about 11.0 grs. of 4759 as the accuracy. They list the MV as about 1700 fps. That doesn't stabilize in my gun giving flyers in every group with all shots tipping. Taking the load up to 13.0 grs. the same occurred only worse.

  Taking a guess I'd say the mix I cast with won't take the pressure and possibly collapse.

  So now I want to go slower and with a lighter bullet.... the NEI mentioned above. If things work out like they did with the Hornet I played with a few years back somewhere between 1400 & 1500 fps should be pretty close. This velocity generally proves out in my Schuetzen rifles.

Pete

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nimrod posted this 04 May 2011

I've had problems with the 225462 stabilizing in the past with barrels with the 14” twist, it's my guess that it is a bit too long and not all barrels are the twist that they are reported to be. Which NEI do you have? I have some NEI #2 that a friend gave me and they are not shooting as well as my 225415 if you would like I could pass them on to you might be something else to try?

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PETE posted this 04 May 2011

nimrod,

Excuse the. Way the message might look. Never tried answering a message to a forum using myDroid X. Right now I'm at the range waiting for afriend to show up and also for the temp. to get a little warmer when I was notified a message on the forum was waiting

Anyway..... I agree that sometimes twist rates in barrels are not all they are advetized as. Supposedly I led to believe that. My Rem VLS has a 1-12'' twist. The best I can measure it as it seems to be correct.

I suppose I could keep running the MV up till the 225462 stabilized but the way the groups kept getting larger I doubt whether accuracy would improve. Might be wrong but my experience indicates this won't happen.

The.NEI bullet I'm using is their 45 225 GC.

Appreciate the bullet offer and might take you up at a later date if I go back too that bullet.

Pete

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PETE posted this 04 May 2011

nimrod,

Excuse the. Way the message might look. Never tried answering a message to a forum using myDroid X. Right now I'm at the range waiting for afriend to show up and also for the temp. to get a little warmer when I was notified a message on the forum was waiting

Anyway..... I agree that sometimes twist rates in barrels are not all they are advetized as. Supposedly I led to believe that. My Rem VLS has a 1-12'' twist. The best I can measure it as it seems to be correct.

I suppose I could keep running the MV up till the 225462 stabilized but the way the groups kept getting larger I doubt whether accuracy would improve. Might be wrong but my experience indicates this won't happen.

The.NEI bullet I'm using is their 45 225 GC.

Appreciate the bullet offer and might take you up at a later date if I go back too that bullet.

Pete

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6pt-sika posted this 04 May 2011

I've had several 222's over the years !

My first was a rebarreled 722 that shot nicely but didn't feed that great !

After I sold that one I got a nice NIB 700 BDL Varmint !

To be honest I've owned THREE of the 700BDL Varmint's in 222 and they all shot great !

Matter of fact I sold the last one less then 2 months ago !

FWIW all the 700BDL Varmints I've owned were made in the 80's and 90's .

 

I still however have a 222 that WILL stay with me until my demise !

And that ones a 722 still factory original that my maternal grandfather bought new in 1958 ! It also still has the old Weaver K10 that he bought the same day !

I have the bill of sale for when he purchased it as well !

If my memory serves me he pd $85 for the rifle and $57.50 for the scope !

He killed many many groundhogs and hawks with that rifle and it'll still shoot 50 grain Hornady SX bullets in half an inch at 100 yards !

 

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.22-10-45 posted this 04 May 2011

Hello, PETE. I have been shooting cast in a Ruger No. 1 in .222 Rem. This rifle has the med. wt. sporter 26” brl. Now each rifle is a story unto itself, but this one seems to like the SAECO #21 & Eagan MX3. A few years ago, I bit the bullet & tried something I had always been wanting to do...I ordered swaging dies from Corbin..sent them samples of the two above bullets, for dia. of .225 & .226. Nose punches were made up to duplicate original bullet noses, as well as round, radiused flat & plain flat. With the radiused flat punch, the gas-checked, lubed SAECO comes out looking like a longer-nosed round nose with flat point. The Eagan comes out looking like a Rem. Yellow Jacket .22 rimfire bullet. In either case, the gas-check is perfectly flat & square with bullet body. So far, these swaged bullts are the most accurate ones so far..equaling jacketed bullet accuracy from this rifle..1/2” to 7/16” groups at 100yds. Powder is H4227, Fed. match primers.

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6pt-sika posted this 04 May 2011

.22-10-45 wrote:  I have been shooting cast in a Ruger No. 1 in .222 Rem. This rifle has the med. wt. sporter 26” brl. .

Now I'd like to have a factory Ruger #1B or #1V in 222 REM to go with the rest of the Ruger #1's we have !

While I'm at it a factory #1B in 6.5mm REM MAG would be great as well ;)

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6pt-sika posted this 04 May 2011

I have a stack of old British semi weekly sporting papers/magazines whatever you care to call them from the 70's and 80's !

Anyway quite a bit was written in them about the 222 REM being the perfect Roe Deer caliber and in a pinch good for the Red Stag as well !

Now I'd have no qualms about using it on Roe with a good Barnes 53 grain TSX or possibly the Nosler 60 grain Partition !

But I kinda question the Red Stag issue unless you hold out for temple shots only !

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[email protected] posted this 04 May 2011

Bought a Rem 700bdl in 222 several years ago. Love it. I shoot the Lyman 225415 gas checked cast of quenched w.w.It will shoot about an 1” 1/14” out to 50 yards with 6gr of clays.

Good squirrel load. I plan to soup it up a little using 748win. I'll post how that works out.

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CB posted this 05 May 2011

” Really liking the small bores I thought I'd like to see what I can work up and shoot in the Season Benchrest Postal Matches with this gun. I doubt if I'll even come close to winning but just want to see if the .22 caliber can be made competitive."

Pete, You may do better than you think. The 22 caliber can be made competitive. I have been shooting CBs in the 222 and the 223 for 45 years. I think it was in 1977, in perhaps the first CBA postal match, I came in second in production class with a 222 Sako and first place went to Norm Duesterhoeft shooting a 223. I have won a lot of postal matches with a 223 since.

There has been a lot of improvement in CB shooting since 1977 and almost all the effort has been on the 30 caliber. Glad to hear of another shooter working with the 22 bore.

Like others who have commented, I have had the best luck with the 225415, if limited to the 14 inch twist although I couldn't never get better than 1.5MOA as an honest average of several groups. Loads that shot best always seemed to be equivalent to about 6 grains of 2400 and the bullets were wheel weight metal or something of about that hardness. I agree that it makes an excellent squirrel combination.

The main problem with the 222 is that all the factory rifles have the stupid 14 inch twist which as you have found limits you to short bullets. The 415 bullet has the same sectional density as a 105 grain 30 caliber bullet and you won't see 105 grain 30 caliber bullets winning any cast bullet matches. Long cast bullets are just plain easier to shoot -- look at the match results.

Fortunately because of interest in shooting the 223 in high power matches, and the military finally smartening up, you can now get a 223 in a eight or nine inch twist which will stabilize longer bullets and make the 22 easier to shoot. ( Savage has been offering 223s with a 9 inch twist for years and more recently Ruger, Winchester, and Tikka have seen the light) For more of my biased opinions see my article in Joe Brennan's “Cast Bullets for Beginner or Expert” -- either the first or second editions ( both are for sale thru the CBA -- see inside the back cover of the Fouling Shot). I recommend either or both books for a wealth of information -- some not available any place else.

Have fun with the 222. I have two of them that I enjoy. But if you decide to get serious in the postal matches I think you will find more success with a faster twist and longer bullets. Either way, I encourage you to give it a try. It will be nice to see another 22 shooter in the postal match results.

Good luck,

John

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PETE posted this 05 May 2011

 6pt-sika,

  I believe your right about all the Rem. 700 Varminters in .222 were made in the 90's. Mine is used and the guy I got it from said it was made in the 90's....... forget the exact year.

  .22-10-45

  Great minds think alike I guess. A few years back I sent out ot Dave Corbin for a set of his swaging dies in .22 cal. I just got the ones for making bullets out of .22 LR cases. Never thought of having Corbin make up swages for straight Lead bullets. Might be something to keep in mind.

 John,

  Good hearing from you again. I believe we had some good conversations on the .22's in the past.

  I agree that there's no reason a .22 of any persuasion can't be competitive. That's why I want to try and see what I can do with them. Of course the bigger hole of the .30's means they'll get those X's the .22's won't. Right now tho I'm just getting started working up something that'll give me a point to work from. Found out yesrteday that I need to set the bullet back further in the case. Seemed to be chambering to tight and sure enuf when checking to see the bullet stayed in the barrel. The next thing I've been trying is to find where The powder charge needs to be. Still need to go down some more. Then of course I'll want to try several different powders. If it goes like working up the Hornet I did quite a while back it'll probably be all Summer getting what I think is the best out of it.

  I agree that the Lyman 225415 is an excellent bullet. It's just that the mould I've got  in that configuration is .002” to .0025” out of round in both cavities, so I'm going with an NEI 45 225 GC bullet I've got that the rear cavity at least is only .0005” out.

  Will agree that the .222 needs a faster twist. I was under the impression that my 700 VLS had a 12” twist, and checking it out the best I can, it seems to be. But I'm starting to doubt that as the Lyman 225462 doesn't want to stabilize, so imagine it has a 14” twist. But at least I have the NEI bullet and it's staying stable as I drop the MV's down to where I think they ought to be. Should be able to get to the range next week and should be down into the MV range I want. Pretty close yesterday.

  Actually I think if I can find the right load that the NEI (45 gr.) will prove accurate enuf. I do quite a bit of .22 RF shooting at 100 yds.  A few of the dedicated .22 RF shooters can knock off a 250 on the ASSRA 100 yd. target.... I haven't, mid 240's is my speed.... which has a 25 ring the same size as the CBA 10 ring. If a .22 RF can do it I don't see why a .22 CF can't.

  So.... Onward and upward. :)

  Thanks for the encouragement!

Pete

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CB posted this 07 May 2011

Pete,

One more comment. I hope you don't give up on your 225415 mould without giving it a try. I don't think I have ever had a mold that cast bullets 0.002” out of round, but I have shot a lot of good scores with bullets that were a bit over 0.001 out of round.

For some reason, many cast bullet shooters don't like to admit that what we deem defective bullets (non uniform weights, small wrinkles, out of round, etc.) sometimes shoot as well as their “perfect” brothers from the same batch --but they often do.

I'm not saying that gross bullet defect can't hurt accuracy or that we shouldn't try casting the best bullets we can. But shooters who discard bullets that are a little less than perfect are causing themselves unnecessary casting time. This is especially true for most pistol shooting and rifles where acceptable accuracy is between 2 and 4 MOA i.e. most rifles. John

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PETE posted this 07 May 2011

John,

  I can certainly agree with you that bullets that aren't round will shoot well. I've had that happen to often not to believe it. Back in the days when I didn't know better Just about anything that came out of a mould was good enuf for me and some pretty amazing groups were shot.

   At this time tho I want to go with the best I can come up with. If I wasn't shooting the Postal Match I'd probably have stayed with the 415 and really wrung it out before going to something else. But.... Since the next target is due the 1st of June I've got to get busy. The way the weather is going around here it'll take a minor miracle to have the best load ready in time.  Supposed to rain every day for the foreseeable future.

  I really would like to have the 415 shoot well in my gun to. Seems to be the preferred bullet for most shooters of the .22's.

  As I've mentioned I feel the best MV's for the .22 cal. is between say 1400 to 1600 fps. Mostly below 1500 fps.So if my rifle does have a 1-14” twist then bullet length becomes a factor, and the plastic limit of a .22 bullet using the same alloy is less than for the same design in .30 cal.

  Here's what I have in the way of moulds applicable for my rifle and their lengths and weights.

 Lyman 225462 - .660” - 63 grs.  Lyman 225415 - .600” - 60 grs.  Lyman 225438 - .530” - 48 gts  NEI 45 225 GC - .485” - 44 grs.

     I shot the  225462 and apparently it's to long as since pushing it up well over 2200 fps still didn't stabilize. The problem I saw with the 415 is that the nose is .320” long so more than half it's length is not supported in the bore.  You know how small those old Lyman moulds are in the nose. So as far as I can see the Lyman 225438 and the NEI 45 225 GC at this point in time are the only bullets suitable to stabilize at 1400 to 1500 fps MV.

  So... What are your thoughts, and those of anyone else that wants to chime in?

Pete

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CB posted this 07 May 2011

Pete,

Well if it keeps raining there as predicted you may gulf coast shore property after the whole southern Mississippi valley washes away.

Strange that you are having stability problems with the 225462. I have had reasonable good luck with it in the only two rifles I have ever tried it in and at less than 1,700 fps. They both were 222s with 14 inch twists.

I am not surprised that you couldn't cure the stability problem by shooting it faster. MV has an effect but it has always seemed small to me.

Good luck with the NEI 45225 since that's the one shooting the best. Should be good for postal matches where you can pick your conditions to some extent. But you had better bone up on your wind doping techniques before entering a 200 yard match.

That is one area where 22s are at a clear disadvantage because of the low sectional density and thus lower ballistic coefficient for a given shape compared to a larger diameter bullet. This is true even with very long 22 bullets.

Let us know how things are developing if it ever stops raining there. John

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PETE posted this 08 May 2011

John,

  :) Well, since they put in the dike along the N. edge of town back in the '60's we haven't had any flooding in town. There's a lot of low lying farm land on the N. side of the river that take care of the overflow and has never come close to topping the dike.

  You might recall in my last message that I had the bullet set so far forward in the case that pulling the cartridge out left the bullet in the rifling. Possibly this is the cause of the 225462 not stabilizing.. Will check on that again when I get thru with the NEI bullet.

   I believe your right in that MV doesn't contribute all that much to stability. The length of the bullet is the major factor that determines whether a bullet flies true or not. But, in my case, the only solution would have been to drive the bullet faster or get a barrel with a quicker twist, or a shorter bullet....... Or so I'm thinking at this time. With your thoughts I'm probably wrong.

  Right! Being able to pick my conditions is what really makes the .22 cal. feasible for Postal Matches. But, also as my first target I sent in shows you've got to have a decent load to go along with it. :)

  Actually I shoot mirage more than I do wind, altho I do use the wind too. You can have 4 flags out and every one blowing in a different direction. Trying to figure that out can drive you crazy. To me mirage gives you the condition over the whole distance to the target and if I shoot that I usually do best.

  I agree that .22's are not the best bullet shape or diam. going for shooting at any great distance. To me tho that's the fun of shooting them. They present a good challenge which to me is more important that winning. Done enuf of that in my lifetime that it's time to let the young whippersnappers take over. :)  But I spent all last Summer shooting our matches twice a month with a .22RF. Can't recall now if I shot the 200 yd. match, but don't think so. All the rest of the matches for the .22RF are 100 yds.

Pete  

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6pt-sika posted this 08 May 2011

Hmmm you guys have me thinking I want to take my grandfathers old 722 and work up a load with the Barnes 53 grain TSX and shoot a deer during the Damage Control Permit season !

I saw him shoot a deer with the old rifle back in 71 or 72 at 100 yards in the temple and the bullet he had reloaded for the rifle was a 45 grainer made for the Hornet !

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PETE posted this 09 May 2011

6pt-sika

Lots of luck with shooting a deer with a .22. Persoanlly I haven't shot anything but a cast bullet for so long I've forgotten when it was.

Pete

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6pt-sika posted this 09 May 2011

PETE wrote: 6pt-sika

Lots of luck with shooting a deer with a .22. Persoanlly I haven't shot anything but a cast bullet for so long I've forgotten when it was.

Pete

So far all i shot cast in are lever guns and some revolvers and as of late a Contender in 444 !

 

I have done some work with a Marlin 1894CL in 218 Bee with cast . Shot just enough to get a decent squirrel load worked out then used it to kill a couple tree rats and never fired the rifle again before I sold it !

 

In my Ruger #1's and bolt rifles I'm still jacketed only !

 

But then everyone has their own set of rules !

 

I had a Marlin 336SC in 219 Zipper I had worked up a good load with the Nosler 60 grain Partition . Only problem was it made the rifle into a 2 shooter and then I sold it before I ever got a chance to smite a deer with it !

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