Mauser 1871 Carbine issue 1876 Single shot

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  • Last Post 16 November 2007
Daryl S posted this 21 January 2007

: I've noticed in the old issues of the CBA magazine, there are several fellows shooting these old rifles, and that most every one of them is shooting .446” diameter bullets.

: I too have an 1871 Mauser, the Carbine model, with it's bent bolt and 20” barrel. I received it in an estate settlement from my now-departed hunting buddy, Art Edwards.

; Unfortunely, some where along the line, someone shortened the stock from it's original (as far as I can find out) full length stock. It was tastefully done however, not merelly chopped off as I've seen since on others.

: The bore was in a terribly pitted condition & I suspect “Eddie” did little more than relegate it to a far corner of his safe.

: Upon inspection I found exceptionally deep rifling, seemingly deeper than the suggested .446” Lyman bullet would suggest. I attempted to make brass from some magnum brass I had, quite successfully too, however I also found they extracted poorly, of course.  Too - any bullet over .446” diameter wouldn't chamber. I slugged the bore to find a .457” groove diameter and a .434” land to land measurement.  I have since found out that the oversize groove diameter was cut on purpose to 'hold' fouling.

: As I desired to shoot full size bullets and not undersized paper patched ones, I purchased a .450 Alaskan Reamer from Dave Kiff of Pacific Tool and Gauge fame.  they didn't want to grind the pilot of the reamer down to my requisite .435", so I tackled that myself. I re-chambered the barrel using the reamer and all went well (after lapping).

: To fire-lapp the bore, I used Lee 460gr. flat nosed slugs with their fairly long nose rding section. The bottom of the grooves looked pretty good, so only the noses of loaded & lubed (soft LBT blue) rounds were rolled in grinding compounds, starting with 120 grit, ending with 400 grit.  I used a smokless powder suggested starting load and proceded to firelapp the barrel, a total of 60 rounds, cleaning the bore every. At the end of this firelapping, the bore increased in size by .002", but the grooves went up .001” to .459". the bore now shines it's full length, with only minor pitting, that seems to not pick up any leading. Pushing a tightly patched jag through, feels even, although there is probably a bit of a taper inside. I was concerned the longer case length of the original .43 Mauser would make cast bullets cut rings ahead of the new chamber's end, but that doens't seem to be happening. This is probalby due to low pressure and the WW metal I'm using.

: I am currently using it to fireform my .348 brass for the .458 Alaskan M70 I also built using the same case, but with rim removed and extractor groove re-cut.

: I had desired to use this for the military matchs, but see it's new chamber probably won't allow it. On the other hand, it is a good moose and bear rifle using 505gr. Lee bullets with 76gr. BlackMag 3. The velocity is just over 1,400fps and of course, suitably powerful.  Accuracy seems to hold between 2-1/2” and 3" at 100 meters, same as my old 1868 .50/70 Sharps does with altered .515” 420 gr. Lyman as well as Lee 450gr. bullets. The Lee bullets show some tipping in the original lined 1859 barrel's 42” twist.

: I have been looking to trade this original .50/70 1859 lined barrel for something I can shoot long range BP sil with. The barrel was lined and chambered for the .50/70 under the 1867 contract to Sharps.  Perhaps this isn't the correct location to post this.

: Do all of these Mauser 1871's rifles have this 11 1/2 deep thou. rifling and tight bores with the well oversize .458 groove diameter, or are the 1871/86 rifles of .446” groove diameter? The model 71's I see listed in CBA magazine are noted as being 1871/86's. I thought the '86 issue rifles were repeaters. 

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Daryl S posted this 25 January 2007

well, so much fer dat. : No-one here shoots a m71 Mauser? : No one here wants an Original Sharps carbine barrel, either, I guess. Not surprised, I don't either, but it does shoot into less than 3” at 100yards with black powder, somewhat tighter with smokeless - original front sight. Rear is a replica, I think, not sure.

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Ed Harris posted this 25 January 2007

Daryl,

Sounds like a dandy moose killer cannon. Sure would like to see a picture of the rifle, the wildcat cartridge and a target. This would make a great article for the Fouling Shot.

This kind of stuff is what cast bullet shooting is all about and makes much better reading than all that stuff about just punching holes in paper!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Daryl S posted this 25 January 2007

Here's the .450 Alaskan and the .458 Alaksan. The only difference is the rim. I turn the rim off to .532” and cut a new extractor groove - takes less than 45 seconds per case. The slightly rebated rim is for the Model 70. It's presently my back-up rifle for guiding in the fall. 

: The .450 Alaskan was deigned by Harold Johnson of Cooper's Landing, Alaska, of course and was for his model 86 Winchester, and later, the model 71 Winchester.

: It makes a great black powder round for the m71 Mauser as .348 Winchester brass is easy to get from Calgary, Alberta. I also use the m71Mauser for fire-forming the brass prior to turning rims down for the model 70 Win.

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Daryl S posted this 01 February 2007

Here's the rifle along with a round, loaded with a 505gr. WW Lee gas check bullet, seated above 40gr. H4895 for 1,400fps. I attempted to upload several more, but have to post this reply and edit to include them. The rifle is in pretty good shape, except for the original condition of the bore, which was badly pitted. Now, it's quite smooth and shiny full length. I shot approximately 40 slow loads using a 460gr. Lee bullet with grinding compound embedded in the noses. All bore riding .458 bullets are oversize in the nose diameter by a considerable amount, but it seems to like them nonetheless.  The bore, as noted above is slightly tighter than .440", and with a groove diameter of .459".The bullets, as cast, are .459 and the sizer barely touches them. I did load the rifle to 45gr. of H4895, CCI 200 primer, for 1,490fps with a 505gr. Lee bullet and with the Lyman 562460 mould, at 550gr., same powder load gave 1,508fps. Although pressure seemed OK, I've reduced the loads with both bullets in deference to this 130 year old rifle.  The 45gr. load, 'should' develop less than 30,000CUP, however that may be too high.  I would really like to try the Postel bullet in this rifle, with it's smaller nose and good weight.  Original ballistics were quite anemic in comparison. ; I noted also that 85gr. weight of Black Mag 3, CCI 250 compressed 1/2", card wad and 460gr. Lee flat base bullet gave a velocity of 1,355fps av., same point of impact as the 45 gr. H4895 and 505gr. bullet. The only difference was the Black Mag 3 kicked considerably more as happens with all BP loads in these larger ctgs. In this light rifle, even the 500gr. load kicks a bit much for 'plinking'. : The easiest way to form brass, is to neck up new .348 cases to .375 with a Lyman expander die, then turn the long nose of a 500gr. bullet down to .375. Seat this turned bullet into the case upside down so the full diameter base is against the throat.  Shooting this bullet with 35gr. H4895 results in a perfectly formed case. They are quite accurate for plinking steel plates at 100 yards.  LIghter bullets result in poorly formed cases with this load.


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Bob W posted this 11 October 2007

Daryl,

I am a new member and saw your Mauser 71 thread.  I recently picked up a sporterized 71 made in Danzig.  Someone did a very nice stock job and my bore is about mint and very deep in a .446  and .434 land as yours seems to be. There is alot of confusion out there about he 71  vs 71/84  and bore sizes.  It seems the 71 was opened up when it went to the 71/84 magazine model. But you hear guys saying they have assorted chamber specs for both models.  So you just slug to be sure.

I have been reading everything I can find on paper patching and shooting these and have come to understand because these early 71 single shots were set up for Paper Patch they have the tight chamber you describe.

I have local guys in my club who simply cut off the stock size brass about 1/4 inch to allow the .446 cast bullet to chamber, allows very good shooting. Since the rifle is twisted about 21 it should handle long postell type bullets to try to seat on the lands, that is what I am fooling with now.

I am also going to paper patch, and recently shot with a guy in a 1000 creedmoor match who paper patches and has taught me enough to stumble through it. I have read how great these shot paper patched so I have to try it since my bore is so nice.

 

I am not going to alter the chamber in any way, I plan to shoot it both ways and see what the gun likes.

I was also thinking of shooting a smaller bullet like the 43 spanish maybe and necking the brass down enough to chamber it.  I am thinking with super soft lead and a dirty black powder bore these undersize bullets may bump up and shoot just fine. That is the other thing I keep reading on the 71 shooting soft to bump up.

Keep in touch on this, I hope other members respond, these are really nice old rifles.

Bob

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Daryl S posted this 14 October 2007

I had answered this post yesterday and when almost finished, my wife slipped the breaker switch for the office room. Oh well. : My rifle, being a M71/76, had a .457” groove diameter, not .446". It had a .434” bore diameter. Both are now a bit larger due to the firelapping I did with some Lee bullets, only imbedding grinding compound in the noses. The bore is now shootable, whereas when I got the gun it looked to be a hopeless sewer pipe. I haven't worked with it very much at all, so have nothing to report as to loads. : The largest bullets that can be seated in the ctg. case and still chamber in the original chamber measure .446". This, apparently is the groove diameter of the M71/84 actions too, same as yours seems to be. In the earlier guns like mine, they relied upon the BP pressure rise to expand the bullet into the grooves.  In the early 70's it was thought they could shoot longer if the grooves were deeper than the bullet's diameter. These ideas shanged in the next 10 years.  : If mine was a tight .446” like yours, I wouldn't have re-chambered it and probably would have made up brass using long magnum brass with belts turned off and rims soldered on. Nowadays, .43 Mauser brass is easily found. : Paper patched bullets will slug up perfectly with black powder loads, less so with the phony black powders like T7 and Pyrodex. ; Grooved, lubricated bullets must be groove diameter or larger to shoot well. With black powder, groove diameter seems to work OK in some guns. Be sure to use a black powder lubricant. Beeswax/Vaseline in 60/40 mix seems to be as good as any of the comercial ones like Lyman's BP Gold or SPG. You must use GOOD beeswax, first filter works great. Alox has no place in black powder loads as alox won't mix with BP and therefore will not doit's whole job. A BP lube must not only lubricate the bullet's passage, but also remain in the bore, mixing with the fouling to keep residual fouling soft so it doesn't cake and adhere to the bore. A simple test of a lubricant is to fire 5 shots, then push a dry patch through the bore. If ALL of the fouling is pushed from the bore with that one dry patch, your lube works. : On bullet alloys, I've found a mix of 50:50 WW and pure lead to do well in BP ctg. guns.  Good luck with your M71.

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CB posted this 08 November 2007

I've got a brand new .446 X 370 grain DC RCBS mold from them for testing. Any of you 1MM guys willing to run a test on bullet casting?

Thanks;

joe b.

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Bob W posted this 08 November 2007

Joe,

Is the test you mention a casting test as well as shooting test? I would be willing to help any way I can. Just let me know what you are looking for.

 

Bob

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CB posted this 09 November 2007

Bob W wrote: Joe,

Is the test you mention a casting test as well as shooting test? I would be willing to help any way I can. Just let me know what you are looking for.

 

Bob

Bob;

This is for a casting test. I'm attempting to find out the relationship between mold, cavity and casting ease/speed. It would be nice if an experienced caster who could use the bullets would do some testing. Then he gets some bullets he can use. I'm going to cast with this mold today; if you're an experienced caster willing to do the test, send me your address in a PM and I'll mail the mold Monday.

Thanks;

joe b.  

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CB posted this 15 November 2007

Why can't I get someone to test this mold? Is it my breath? Is my deoderant letting me down? Come on boys, do some testing-turn the computer off and the pot on; I can't do it all myself!!!!!

joe b. 

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Daryl S posted this 15 November 2007

Joe- you could it to me, but I'd have to pay duty and taxes on what Customs assesses it's value to be.

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George4741 posted this 15 November 2007

Joe,

I have one of those molds already. Is there something I can help you with?

George

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Daryl S posted this 16 November 2007

I was thinking, that with that bullet, I could paper patch it to bring it up to proper size for my .458” groove diameter on the M71/76. Of course, it is easier to just use one of the many .458 moulds I already have.

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CB posted this 16 November 2007

George4741 wrote: Joe,

I have one of those molds already. Is there something I can help you with?

George

George;

Yes you can. See, under “CAST BULLET DISCUSSION” above, the thread “MOLDS AND HEAT". This mold is the RCBS mold with the largest bullet weight, in 2 cavities, of all the molds.

I believe that this is a “HOT” mold, that it will take a while for sprue to harden etc, and that casting will be slow. Bullets per hour will be low.

I need an experienced caster to set the temp of the pot as low as possible and cast good bullets. Then I need a rating from him/you, of HOT, WARM, IDEAL, COOL, COLD for the mold.

And if you have a thermometer, the alloy temperature.

Thanks;

joe b.

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