hello everyone,
does anyone have any loading info to share for the 1876 Winchester in 45-60 WCF.? i can't even find loade data that is old. ctg case dementions would be good too. looking first for smokeless loade data. what is considered max pressure and where do i arrive at it.
i have read that black powder loads fowled real bad after three or four shots. any solutions for this? lube cookie or duplex load for a cleaner burn.
will appreciate any info.
thanks
mike
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I'd would like to see your load data on the Chap 45-60. I am going to look back thru my data book and send you my data.
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I chambered my new GM 18” twist barrel for my Sharps to .45/60. I'm using cast bullets from 340gr. to 580gr. in it, with powder charges to 62gr. 1 and 2F to 65gr. 3F.
Also, it likes 15gr. of Trail Boss and a 385gr. cast bullet for 1 1/2", 5 shot groups at 100 meters - tang and aperture front sights.
I should also add that with 48gr. Bench Mark and 400gr. RP bullets, I get less than max. loads for the Sharp's big firing pin, and exciting speeds out of the 35” bl. So far, that load runs 1,855 fps, with 47gr.running 100fps less. Since my overall length is slightly longer than what a Marlin .45/70 can work through the magazine, I can use light loads listed for the trapdoor .45/70's without running into pressure for the old, 1868-style action.
Depending on your overall loaded length (is it longer than listed .45/70 loads), Hodgdon's Annual Manual might give up some useful information on lighter .45/70 loads that can be used, or at least extropolated from.
The Lever gun might not allow such lengths, but then, it just might allow 2.5” OAL's. If this is the case, .45/70 data with those lengths that run low pressure, ie:20,000CUP(same as PSI in this case) can be used as a base for developing your own data. Simple stuff if you understand my drift.
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I am interested in your data and I will send you mine. I've owned a 1876 45-60 from Chapparel and have tried 3031 and 2400. I have some 4198 and 4895. And I would like to try VV. I've got some cast bullets made by a friend and bought some out of Midway. Have loaded some jacketed as well. My gun shoots the 2400 with a 300 grain cast point of aim less than an inch group at 100 yrds. Get back to me @
Thanks
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The Uberti 1876 is proofed by CIP for black and smokeless powder, and is rated to be used at the same pressure point as standard .45-70; 28,000psi. They carry the proper proof marks.
The Pedersoli trapdoor Springfields are also proofed to this same level.
CIP is very stringent - no rifle gets out the door without being proofed.
I have done some work with the Uberti 1876, starting with finding a guy who owns a precision lathe who could thin some .45-70 case rims to the proper thickness, which was 0.063” for this particular rifle. After that I worked up some lower pressure loads conservatively based on data that the QuickLoad software generated. QuickLoad is a bit optimistic for straight wall rifle cases, so at best it provides a reasonable ballpark starting/max point.
I haven't tried using the standard 300JHP bullets. It's hardly worth it. You can get just as good results with a 300gr cast bullet.
You can get quite a bit more from this rifle than you can safely get from an original. With a bit of work you can equal factory .45-70 ammo ballistics, but with lead bullets instead of jacketed ones.
The Uberti 1876 is very fussy about OAL. Cartridges must be +/- 1/16” to feed properly. Choose the bullet that works best, and then trim your brass to get the right length for crimping with that bullet.
Send me an email and I'll send you the data. I've got several more loads ready to test when I get the chance.
Anyone who is really, really serious can spend the $$$ and get one of those RSI Pressure Trace rigs and glue on a gauge. It should be possible to do this underneath the barrel where it can't be seen, but you'd have to take the rifle apart a bit to do that.
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why would you want to use a jacketed bullet in this gun? i believe at the max velocities you will safely achieve you will get better performance from a soft lead bullet. mike
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anybody out there shot any jacketed loads through a new 1876????
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Velocity would be higher as well as pressure and the pressure is what I am concerned about. Just fishing hoping someone may have the same rifle and would have shot some jacketed bullets through it.
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presuming that Uberti are using modern smokeless barrels and not hardened steel barrels I would suspect that and load for a cast lead bullet would serve well for a jacketed bullet. I would suspect also that there would be a measurable difference in velocities
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I know this is a cast bullet forum, but I was wondering if anyone out there had a smokeless load with a jacketed bullet for an 1876 Uberti chambered in .45-60??? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Having had the pleasure of shooting an original model 1876 in 45-60 for many years now I have found that although good results with blackpowder were the norm. Smokeless took a lot of investigation (which continues ,hey we all look for that perfect combination) but I have found that powders that fill the case without and filler material or airspace gave most relaible results. H4831SC gave performance similar to the 45-75-350 but with a 325grain bullet. Depending on case brand around 50-53 grains would give 1330-1400 fps and 5 shot groups are commonly within 1.5” at 100yards. There is much said about the “76 action being weak , I would have hoped that Winchesters tests more than a centuryago would have dispelled them. The 45-60 uses the same action at the 50-95 just a larger chamber /bore differant elevator casting and so is more that stought enough to duplicate it's loadings.I am pleased to find my rifle which left the factory in late “81 with a set trigger and peep sight still shoots so well more that 125 years later. Happy shooting.
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Hi Mike,
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook lists a starting load of 23.0 gr IMR-4198 and a 322 gr. bullet for a pressure of 7,700 CUP. They list 32 gr as max w/ the same bullet for 17,000 CUP. That max load listed for the trapdoor might be a little on the warm side for the 1876, don't know. In my previous post, I mentioned that a German company proofed one of the new repro 1876's to 2500 Bar. If 1.014 Bar = 14.7 psi, you get the idea that the proofed rifle held at 36,000 PSI. I'll let you figure out the relationship between Copper Units of Pressure and Pound per Square Inch, should be close to similar. Definately staying below 50% of what the rifle was proofed at makes sense to me. The April 2005 IMR Powder catalog lists, for the trapdoor no less, 41.2 gr of IMR-4198 for 28,000 PSI. You have to wonder if the trapdoor is a stronger action than the 1876.
Two weeks ago I just shot my repro 1876 out to 200 yards @ metallic silhouetts with 25 gr. of XMP-5744 and the RCBS 325 FNGC bullet. That load was listed at about 16,000 CUP. My rifle shot this load very well with no signs of pressure. I think I will try 24 gr of SR-4759 next time (~16,000CUP), as I am out of 5744.
Oh yes, make sure the base wad you're using is snug in the case neck and is in contact with the bullet's base or you will ring the chamber on that fine shooting rifle!
greg
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thanks to all,
been a spell since i was here. interesting is the info as it is near what i did. just to bring this current. i have found the best (most accurate) load is 24.5 gr imr 4198. i use 1/10 sheet of toilet paper (3/4X2") pushed down with a 38-55 case to keep the powder to the rear. a .030 card wad pushed in with the boolet. the boolet is from a rcbs mould 45-325-?? this a pb boolet and weighs 345 gr as cast. this load this gun will shoot one raggad hole at 50 yds if i do my part, and i have several times. the gun is a new uberti 1876. i made cases from 45-70 trimmed to 1.890 length and then thinned the rim to .058 to .060. 45-70 cases seem to range from .064 to .069. this makes the case headspace correctly. i can't believe there is no info on this ctg. i do still have a question. anyone got any idea of the pressure of this load and what the uberti guns are proofed at. i see no pressure signs and the cases are easy to resize.this is not a real powerful ctg and i am not interested in hotroding it. i am only looking to reproduce bp ballistics. this gun is a pleasure to shoot and i hope to give it a try on levergun silouets (sp). thanks again folks for all the info.
mike
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Mike: You might think of contacting Mike Venturino either directly or through the Shiloh Sharps forum. I understand that he has done some work with this caliber in the “76” and posts frequently on the Shiloh Forum.
R.Dupraz 1st US Infantry Fort Randall Dept of Dakota
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Mike,
Another interesting article (with loads and some cartridge dimensions) outlining Kirk Durston's experience with an 1876 Winchester in 40-65 can be found at:
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Mike,
I can't find cartridge dimensions nor info. on how to make 45-60 brass (George Nonte's book). However, “Cartridges of the World” (6th edition, pg. 134) gives smokeless reloading info. for 45-60 as 25 grains of 4198 with a 300 gr. bullet for a MV of 1410 fps. Comment is: Lyman #456191; about max. for old rifles.
In light of the very similar load of 4198, listed in the previous posting for a newly manufactured 1876, extreme caution is in order.
I've looked in my Ideal / Lyman reloading manuals back to “Ideal #29" published in 1929 with no smokeless loads listed. It appears that black powder is really the way to go. Proceed carefully and best of luck in safely bringing this old girl back to life.
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Hi Mike,
Just shot my Chapparral Arms 1876 Winchester for the first time last weekend and had very good results using 24 gr of A-A XMP-5744 and the NEI 310458 bullet. This is a light load out of my rifle and I believe a starting .45-70 Trapdoor load so I think it might be OK out of an original rifle in good condition. Keep in mind gunscribe Mike Venturino as well as Chapparral Arms recommends only the use of black powder in oringinal as well as recent mfg. Win 1876s . Mike also has a picture in his book of what was a real nice 1876 that a friend of his blew-up using smokeless powder. Using small amounts of fast burning powder in a large capacity case can lead to serious problems fast if a double charged case goes undetected during the reloading process.
I started out with new W-W .45-70 brass trimed to 1.900". This brass shortened up about .010” on firing and by the looks of it, may be still a bit too long. Mike V. recommends in his book “Lever Guns of the Old West” to trim .45-70 cases to a length of 1.89” and using 60 gr of Goex 2-F for a velocity of 1310 w/ the RCBS 300 bullet. My reloading of this cartridge was accomplished using standard RCBS .45-70 dies with the seater die shortened by about .2". I just purchased that RCBS 300 bullet mold and will try and cast some bullets with it tomorrow.
One of the European importers of the Chaparral 1876 (Waffen-Online) had listed on a their web site that the newly manufactured 1876 rifle was proof tested to 2500 BAR and they recommeded the following loads w/ a 330 gr bullet:
25 gr. of IMR 4198; 20 gr of VihtaVuori N110; 23 gr of Tubal 2000
Hope this helps a bit.
Greg
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hello everyone,
does anyone have any loading info to share for the 1876 Winchester in 45-60 WCF.? i can't even find loade data that is old. ctg case dementions would be good too. looking first for smokeless loade data. what is considered max pressure and where do i arrive at it.
i have read that black powder loads fowled real bad after three or four shots. any solutions for this? lube cookie or duplex load for a cleaner burn.
will appreciate any info.
thanks
mike: Hello Mike - Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe put out a loading manual on the line of BP ctgs. - dealing with BP loads.
: As well, you really should pick up Paul Mathews book on Black Powder Cartridge Rille Loading and perhaps “The Paper Jacket", also by Paul.
: These books have helped me a lot over the last 20 years on developing good BP loads that shoot cleanly and allow continuous shooting without having to wipe the bore. My criteria is that the fouling from 5 to 10 shots has to be wiped clean with one dry patch= Paul's methods from these books did this for me.:D
: Brass can be purchased, among other places, from trackofthewolf.com. I find them easy to deal with, even from “the Frozen North".
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