This mystifies me. I'm a trained mechanic and lube is good, too little lube is bad.
It seems self evident that lots of lube helps the high pressure/velocity loads, correct?
Light loads seem to be effected by too much lube, correct?
Could someone educate me on why this works as it does?
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I think too much lube unbalances the bullet, or clogs up the barrel and forces the bullet to “scrape” it out.
I know I have seen those pesky 8th shot flyers before.
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The function of lube is a science in it's own right. You could spend years testing the variables. I read something by Ken M. about using COW and unlubed bullets giving better accuracy at speed than cbs with lube and COW. The lube degraded accuracy. Go figure. The COW loads would not lead the bore. I'm in the school of thought that lubes main asset is as a sealer against gasses, not really lubing directly. Maybe leaving a lube residue helps with the next shot, both lubing and sealing. If it builds up in the bore you lose consistency. Lately my approach has been 'less is more', (and I'm lazy), very lightly tumble lubing with a LLA/mineral spirits/ Johnson Paste Wax mix. Working great on a variey of things. This follows the Ranch Dog method which has been very successful.
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i dont theorize much,but my hunch is as long as it keeps a constant bore condition and no leading it can be about anything from mutton tallow to high tech synthetic stuff.Depending on velocity/pressure you are shooting it may take more or less of it depending on its lube properties.Too much may cause it to be an uneven coat and too little may leave it only partially coated. I personally use as little as possible and use 50-50 NRA style or 50/50 Paraffin/Vaseline with 1tbs STP for plain base rifle loads.I don't shoot above about 1600 so the simple stuff works for me.
kind of a vague post,but its what i am guessing?i guess its really saying what “tturner"said above anyhow.
here are some groups without lube at all(200g RCBS @1620 fps) in a 35 Whelen @ 100, go figure! they are 5 consecutive groups at 100 yards.barrel only had a very light leading that a lubed GC bullet cleaned out with three shots.
George
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I'm betting knowing you and by the looks of those groups your bullet is a very good fit in the Whelen's throat. I don't know how many times I've read in CBA articles that bullet fit is king, if it fits the throat and starts straight it will shoot straight. Then again, I've read reports by guys I believe that changing lube greatly affected accuracy. Sometimes this hobby is a little like voodoo.
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Perhaps bullet lubes, their application, and their actions are similar to recent theories re: chaos.
Quick and dirty definition re: chaos theory is that some processes may be so complex with so many intricate and intertwined relationships that those processes are beyond human ability to adequately unravel/comprehend. It is our inability to discern such a vast quantity of connections and relationships that makes them APPEAR to be chaotic.
Would it not be ironic if something as relatively simple as bullet lube were to prove to have so very many variables and relationships with other parts of a given firearm, the components of a given cartridge, and the elements of the firing process?
Good shooting! RT
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"Chaos theory is that some processes may be so complex with so many intricate and intertwined relationships that those processes are beyond human ability to adequately unravel/comprehend.
i am reading James Gleick's 1987 book on Chaos right now and I agree that lube falls into that category. Very bizarre stuff that Chaos,makes quantum physics seem like high school algebra.I cant understand any of them but think bullet lube is probably the most complex problem
g
PS- glad you liked the SAECO mold.
George
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This mystifies me. I'm a trained mechanic and lube is good, too little lube is bad.
It seems self evident that lots of lube helps the high pressure/velocity loads, correct?
Light loads seem to be effected by too much lube, correct?
Could someone educate me on why this works as it does? Bill Warner wrote: I think too much lube unbalances the bullet, or clogs up the barrel and forces the bullet to “scrape” it out.
Bill and George bvoth have alot more experience that I do, by far. We've had this discussion before and the thinking is that excess lube is on the bullet as it leaves the barrel. The high rotational speed of the bullet flings the now uncontained lube outward, and not necessarily evenly. It's called lube purging. That why many folks have seen increased accuracy by lubing one or two less grooves. I'm still working on my 1903 Springfield but the initial load was 16 gr of 2400 and a Saeco 315 lubed all the way. As I've decreased the lube to the point that only one groove is lubed, groups have tightened up. Still fighting a bedding issue, but that's another story.
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"Chaos theory is that some processes may be so complex with so many intricate and intertwined relationships that those processes are beyond human ability to adequately unravel/comprehend.
i am reading James Gleick's 1987 book on Chaos right now and I agree that lube falls into that category. Very bizarre stuff that Chaos,makes quantum physics seem like high school algebra.I cant understand any of them but think bullet lube is probably the most complex problem
g
PS- glad you liked the SAECO mold.
GeorgeMakes perfect sense to me. Go with what works and don't worry about what doesn't. Being somewhat hard headed I have tried lubing the bullet up to the max, filling all the grease grooves. Has never worked for me usually end up with the groove just above the gas check and the next one up does just fine. Maybe the bores on milsurps might be a little different don't know haven't spent much time with one of those yet.
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Like everyone else, I lube the 30 calibers just enough to not lead. But on a trapdoor that I shot at the nationals, I used the Lee HB with every lube groove filled. The barrel had the pits filled with Lee Liquid Alox, and the bullet had Joe Giffords black powder lube. It is a thin stuff he makes that you can squish between your fingers. But you do have to use some dry patches every 25 shots to keep excess down. Ric
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Like everyone else, I lube the 30 calibers just enough to not lead. But on a trapdoor that I shot at the nationals, I used the Lee HB with every lube groove filled. The barrel had the pits filled with Lee Liquid Alox, and the bullet had Joe Giffords black powder lube. It is a thin stuff he makes that you can squish between your fingers. But you do have to use some dry patches every 25 shots to keep excess down. Ric
i agree with Ric, my Finn 28-30 7.62 x 54 with not so hot bore requires the bullet to have lots of lube.Once the bumps and pits were filled up it shot well.
g
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May thinking about lube is two fold.(1 being that it provide a liquid type of seal between the bore and bullet to help prevent gas cutting. (2 is that the lube that is on the bore from previous shots form a shield on the bore to prevent lead from sticking.Kind of like trying to solder wires that have grease or oil on them.The solder just won't stick.But that's my thinking.I know there has been alot of debate on this subject on this forum.
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I don't know how lube works, but I think I know that less lube = less cleaning. I've been at one grease groove for a long while now, have tried just lube in the space above the gas check and it still works fine. But I feel guilty, so lube one GG also. I just bought a sizer to eventually-after honing-lube just one groove on .45 bullets.
However. less lube makes the “lube star” disappear, which I was told for years was vital. It don't seem vital.
Again, it seems to me that more lube requires more cleaning, that the lube burns black and stays in the barrel. Lyman Super Moly is black, and a little does the job just fine.
I've never seen a difference in accuracy attritable to lube quantity, or-within reason-lube type/composition.
joe b.
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Here's my take on it that's been backed up by some experimenting. Shooting the Lyman 457124 with all grooves filled and my favorite load accuracy was good until somewhere between the 5th and 8th shot when I'd get this flyer. After that, for another 5 to 8 shots accuracy was back to normal when again I'd get a flyer. After some experimenting I found what John did; that eliminating lube out of one grease groove accuracy kept on indefinitely.
What I think happened is that lube had built up to the point that it had to be “purged", which that 5th or 8th round did. If I went back to filling all the grooves the same problem occurred so can only guess that's the problem.
I've never had this purging problem happen with any other bullet when filling all the grooves, but have found, like John says, that accuracy can be improved if not all the GG's are filled. So it's one of the things I try when working toward the best cast bullet load.
Pete
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