2400 IS position sensitive

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  • Last Post 06 July 2010
Pete Voss posted this 05 July 2010

Some of you may have read my recent posts on my 200 yd match shooting adventures with an '03 Springfield. Also my MIS-adventure with a 1917 Enfield--ie. having a bullet lodge in the barrel and bringing a abrupt halt to a match. Well, yesterday I was feeling good and off to a fair start in a match with the '03 when the last shot of the offhand stage fizzled--no sound that I could detect wearing double hearing protection. Familiar with this after the 1917 incident, I figured “Damn, I'm out of another match with a bullet stuck in the barrel again.” Another shooter said the guys in the range shack have a rod and sure enough, a few taps with a heavy hammer and I was back in business. Returning to the line I still had time remaining to get off my last shot--an eight since I was a little rattled, but at least not a miss. Well, now we're into the sitting rapid and on my fifth shot of the string same thing--no sound other than that of the striker. I did drop out of the match at this point--no time to make another trip to the range shack plus I was demoralized thinking “How many more times is this going to happen?” Back home I was all set to have to tap out another lodged bullet when I discovered the bore was clear--the last shot had just enough uumph to get out of the barrel. Meantime, and all the way home--a 90 mile drive which included a “longcut” over the coast range to avoid horrendous beachgoer traffic--I had been mentally beating myself up, thinking there must be some flaw in my loading technique or routine. Especially after the incident with the 1917, I had been particularly careful when charging my cases. I use a Belding & Mull measure, which means that I'm seeing a full charge (16g of 2400) go into each case, plus I double check by dropping a marked pencil into each case. My respected mentor Frank Craig says that it must be that the charge in the faulty rounds is all the way forward and not igniting properly. Makes sense, as my cartridge holder (for offhand) holds the rounds base up and the action of rapidly chambering a round in RF throws the charge to the front of the case. I had been in the habit of rotating the rounds in the offhand and slow prone stages with my thumb a turn or so before chambering but maybe I got careless and forgot this. Anyway, I think this shows that the position of a light charge in the case can result in misfires--if all the way forward. Mind you, I had shot three previous matches with the same load without a hitch--and had decided on using 2400 because it was reputed to be “position insensitive” I'm going to try RL-7--Frank says about 25g--hope to avoid any recurrences of this problem. Pete

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99 Strajght posted this 05 July 2010

I had that problem with Remington primers a few years ago. It might have been a bad batch, I do not know. I switch to WW primers and have never had a problem in the 30-06 size case and cast bullets. 2400 works just fine, but I like IMR 4895 better.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 05 July 2010

We cannot get 2400 in sunny Italy,but if Ed Harris says that 2400 is not position sensitive,2400 is not position sensitive.And it was old Elmer keith's favourite 44 mag powder.

I have shot tons of reduced powder loads,and all my difficulties of powder ignition were caused by wron choice of primers .

Use large rifle primers or Winchester large rifle primers.

 

Sometimes I forget to put the powder in all cases,Von Alzheimer hits me often.  

 

PS I have good ignition in light loads with this 458 Lott

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giorgio de galleani posted this 05 July 2010

Alzheimer !!!!

LARGE RIFLE MAGNUM PRIMERS or WW large rifle standard primers.|

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35Whelen posted this 05 July 2010

  For 1 1/2 years or so now, I've been shooting High Power with a K-31 and cast bullets with reduced loads. For the first 3 or 4 months I used 8.0 grs. of Red Dot and a little 155 gr. FN plain-base. I then switched to 6.7 grs. of B'Eye with the same bullet. In May and June of this year I switched to a mould cut especially for the K-31. The bullet weighs right at 190 grs. and I used 14.0 grs. of AA#7 with great success.

  Last Saturday I shot our Veterans Match with my Issue 03A3. I loaded it with a Lyman 311672 and 16.0 grs. of 2400. Ours was a 50 round match so I fired only 55 rounds including sighters. No problems at all, even during rapid fire.

  With the above mentioned loads, I've used a couple of different primers: With the Red Dot an B'Eye load, I used Winchester WLP's exclusively. When I switched over to AA#7 and 2400 I used CCI-350's. I have a range here at my house so  I do quite a bit of load testing. I'm really not particular as to what brand of primers, but with any load weighing less than 20 grs., I use pistol primers; the two I types just mentioned 99% of the time.

  Over the last couple of years or so, I've shot up a couple of pounds of 2400 here at the house. Most of the shooting is testing from the bench, but I make “0” effort to orient the powder since I won't be able to do that in a match. Again, no problems. I've used the 2400 in .308, 30-06, 7.5 Swiss, 303 British and 7.62x54r.

  For years I've been hunting with a little Mauser .308. My cast load is 22.0grs. of 2400 behind a Lyman 311291HP. The rifle/load combo has been used many times for deer, even a couple of times out of a tree stand, shooting at a downward angle where I KNOW the powder was against the bullet. Again, never a single mis-fire. This is a very short rifle, so when I'm walking to my stand or through the woods, I always carry it by the receiver, muzzle down.

  Do you think it's possible you got a batch of weak primers? I've seen still photos of primers being detonated and have even popped a few out of rifles. It's inconceivable to me that any primer could not ignite any pistol type powder in a small area such as the inside of a .30 caliber cartridge case.

  Hope you figure it out.

   35W

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Pete Voss posted this 05 July 2010

WLR primers are all that I have at present--if magnum primers are the answer I may have to buy some. Pete

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RicinYakima posted this 05 July 2010

Pete,

Failure to ignite the charge is not a “position sensitive” issue. Most of us define that term as pressure and velocity change from front, back or bottom of the case.

2400, with 10% nitroglycerin content, is very easy to ignite. For failure to ignite problems consider:

  1. large pistol primers instead of large rifle primers

  2. bad primers

  3. firing pin issues

  4. inside case contamination problems:

     a. using spray case lube that gets inside the neck

     b. some types of lubes on bottom of bullet in hot weather

     c. water washed cases that are not dry inside

     d. tumble cleaned cases with petroleum based solvents added to the media

I have no doubt that you have a problem, I just don't think it is the 2400 powder, unless it is bad. I have used 2400 for over 40 years and never had is problem from 32 long to 50/70 reloads for failure to ignite.

Ric

 

 

 

 

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35Whelen posted this 05 July 2010

  Come to think of it, I have but a pittance of 2400 left in my last can. I think I'll use the remainder to load a few rounds and discharge them with the muzzle pointed at the ground. Give me a few days and I'll let you guys know what happens.

  35W

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Pete Voss posted this 05 July 2010

Whelen--as you can see we posted simultaneous replies. Bad lot of primers? The thought occurred to me too, but I keep remembering that this problem didn't crop up until after some 200-odd trouble free shots with the same lot of primers. Strange. Pete

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Pete Voss posted this 05 July 2010

Ric--to address the issues you brought up. Cases are not cleaned either with water or tumbled. I merely wipe the necks with a polish-dampened rag. Also, I don't lube cases as I'm sizing about 1/4” of the neck. Bullet lube is wiped off the gas checks when sizing, if present. Hot weather? We don't really have it on the central coast. I did leave loaded rounds for a day or so in a hot car but not this last batch that gave me trouble. Pete

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35Whelen posted this 05 July 2010

Pete Voss wrote: Whelen--as you can see we posted simultaneous replies. Bad lot of primers? The thought occurred to me too, but I keep remembering that this problem didn't crop up until after some 200-odd trouble free shots with the same lot of primers. Strange. Pete

 After 200 trouble free shots, that is strange. After my last post, and readind Ric's, i thought of some other things I do that may help eliminate mis-fires, etc.:

  I uniform the flash holes of all my cases. I feel sure this aids in more uniform, consistent ignition.

  I am super, super anal about cleaning bullet lube from the base of the bullets. In fact I do it twice: Once after I seat the gas check while running them through an oversized die in the lubrisizer(I keep an old towel in my lap and wipe the bases as they come out of the sizer), then a second time after the final sizing with a Lee push-thru die.

  One other thing is I ALWAYS orient loaded rounds POINT UP. When firing offhand, I keep my cartridge box on my shooting stool with the rounds point up. Even when firing rapid fire strings, I keep my loaded stripper clips sitting next to me point up. A year or so ago I loaded some .303's with 13.0 grs. of Red Dot and a 314299 for an MBAR match and put the rounds in the box point down. I loaned the rifle, a very accurate No.4 which I had already sighted in, to a friend who also was shooting the match. The first few shots hit WELL short of the 100 yd. target stand! I was baffled until I noticed the cartridges point down in the box. I turned them all over, giving the rims a tap on the bench as I did, and the rest shot as expected. I don't have an explanation, so take it at face value.

  Food for thought.

  35W

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99 Strajght posted this 05 July 2010

When I first started reloading back in the 60s' the guy that taught me to reload would turn the primers up and check the anvels. If they were seated crooked he would set these aside and not use them. I havent checked the anvels in 30 years but if the machine that seats the anvels was off maybe you had a few bad primers. Things happen.

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RicinYakima posted this 05 July 2010

Pete,

If it was just the '03, I would tell you to check the striker collar, the piece that holds the fireing pin and striker togather. These sometimes crack with old age and a piece is floating around inside the bolt, and sometimes stops full forward movement of the striker.But I have never heard of this issue with the M1917.

Was this powder from a new container, sealed, that you just opened? Do you know how old it is? I wrote an article for The Fouling Shot last year on 2400 and used powder made in the 1950's with out problems.

Going to have to think about this for awhile.

Ric

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Pete Voss posted this 05 July 2010

Powder was from an 8 lb. jug--opened maybe six months ago. Bought it about the time Obama got in--was pretty worried and stocking up.

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LWesthoff posted this 05 July 2010

I have - ONCE ONLY - encountered a primer with anvil properly installed but with no priming compound. It happenned in the past 5 or 6 years, but I can't remember what brand they were. I do remember it was a large pistol primer, and I caught it before I loaded it. I sent it back to the manufacturer with a letter explaining that I wasn't looking for any kind of a refund; I just wanted them to know they might have a QC problem. Wouldn't have been a major problem for me, 'cause the targets I shot at were made of paper and weren't in the habit of shooting back.

They sent me a tray of 100 primers and a thank you letter.

Wes

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cityboy posted this 05 July 2010

I have used a LOT of 2400 in the 30-06 and have NEVER had a problem. I also store the rounds in an ammo box base down and am careful loading the rounds into the chamber so the powder is at the primer end of the case. Have the case shoulders been set back? If they have you could be having a headspace problem and keeping the primer too far from the firing pin.

I avoid this by spraying the cases with a silicone lube befor boxing the ammo. I get the spray in the automotive dept. at Walmart. I have been doing this for years an it works like a charm.

Let us know what you find out.

Jim

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303PV posted this 06 July 2010

Pete,

Sometimes the fit of the primer in the primer pocket is too tight. Did you need more force than usual to seat the primers?The primer may get deformed causing a misfire.

PV

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cityboy posted this 06 July 2010

303PV wrote: Sometimes the fit of the primer in the primer pocket is too tight. Did you need more force than usual to seat the primers?The primer may get deformed causing a misfire.

Good point. Several years ago I bought a primer seating gauge from RCBS. I use it every time I seat primers. I don't know if they still make it.

Jim

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