What kind of 100 meter/yard accuracy do skilled military rifle shooters get using the barrel mount notch and post sight?
What kind of accuracy from barrel mounted notch and post sights?
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- Last Post 02 October 2011
With my Turk 98 Mauser,1891 Mausers and Russian 91-30's i get anywhere from 1.25” to 3". Alot depends on the lighting for me.I am 44 years old and wear contacts for nearsightedness.I dont have a problem shoting alot of 2" five shot grops at 100 with my Russian Mosin.
George
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I'm a lot like George, but older (!) and wear tri-focals. With a Mosin Finn 28/30 I have shot 1” groups (10 shots) at 100 yards. But the problem is eye strain. With the bright sun behind me, I'm only good for one group, then the eyes fail.
With good sharp blackened open sights, you can hold about 1 MOA, just not for very long. It all depends upon your eye sight.
HTH< Ric
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"With good sharp blackened open sights, you can hold about 1 MOA"
True but with 20 year old eyes!
I shoot many groups under 1.5” with irons for 5 at 100 but 10 shots strian my eyes too much .I feel a bit under 2” for a good cast load and our aged eyes in an honest average not counting the “wallet groups” we all have shot.Centering the group is a different story with those crude sights.As soon as light changes you are at it again.
george
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You're right George. When I shot the 28/30 last year at your match in Pasco, every time a cloud blows over, the group shifted. Just the sun moving accross the sky makes me see the sight differently. It is an amazingly accurate rifle, I just can't shoot it well enough for a match rifle.
But it is fun to try! I'm taking a Springfield 1873 trapdoor to the nationals this year. Wish me Luck!
Ric
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I have a Russian 1934 91-30 that wants to shoot 1.5” or under much of the time,and i'd shoot it at the Nationals if i had a better way to adjust those crude sight between lighting conditions.As it is now i will shoot a scoped Russian 91-30 with a pointed 190g plainbase bullet.I wont be in the top 5,but i shouldnt embarass myself.
George
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I can do 2 MOA but if the light changes I am in trouble.
Cheers from New Zealand
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Not all open sights are created equal. I have a heck of a time with Mauser sights compared to the Russian. Maybe that's why you don't see many issue Mausers winning matches, I know there's nothing wrong with the accuracy of the gun, just can't make out the sight picture too good.
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Thanks to everyone for your input. For starters I'm going to take the peep off my Ruger 10/22 and reinstall the standard sight. Then I'll sight it in and use a file to cut a shallow V profile.
The 303 No 1 to my eye would suit iron sights best.
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With a stock iron sighted 10/22, I've been able to shoot remarkably small groups at 50 yards, but I've had to use very expensive ammo (Lapua Speed Ace, which is now no longer available).
Regarding your original question, lately I've been shooting a K31 with a rather worn throat, using a group-buy clone of the RCBS 165 Silhouette, and I get the same size group at 100, 150 and 200 yards: about 3 inches. Why I get the same size group no matter what the range, I have no idea, but the same thing happens to me in Golf: 3 iron or 7 iron, the ball will fall in the same spot.
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Not all open sights are created equal. I have a heck of a time with Mauser sights compared to the Russian. Maybe that's why you don't see many issue Mausers winning matches, I know there's nothing wrong with the accuracy of the gun, just can't make out the sight picture too good.
Good point. My SMLE has the best iron sights I have every shot over.
Cheers from New Zealand
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With my 60 year old eyes, the standard Mauser barrel sights are problematic. I took a thin round file and made the notch of the rear sight into a half round. Then I glued a small washer onto the sight blade creating a barrel mounted peep. Made all the difference in the world!
The other thing I did was to get a prescription set of shooting glasses. The optometrist set me up with polycarbonite lenses that had a low “reading” correction but with a focal point of approx. 36” instead of the usual 24” of readers. They clean up the front sight but still allow me to see the target. My usual correction is 2.5 but the special shooting lenses are 1.5.
Jeff
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The deep U-notch with lots of daylight around the parallel sided square post of the Russian sights makes for a much better iron sight picture than the Mauser V-notch and barleycorn front. On Mausers I would opt for the Brownell's replacement post and file the rear notch to Russian contour with a tiny round Swiss file.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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In The American Rifleman, April 1977, there is the article titled “Factors Of Sighting Error” by L.F. Moore that describes the results of testing conducted at Aberdeen Proving Ground with various sights and conditions. See 8.3.3 FACTORS OF SIGHTING ERROR in the book for a translation-L.F. wrote in code. With open sights, the following group sizes resulted: M94, 1.175 MOA M99, 1.225 MOA M70, 1.200 MOA M760, 1.275 MOA These are the group sizes attributable to the sights ONLY. In contrast, 8X scope, .125" M1 Garand), .575 (aperture rear, post front) joe b.
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One factor I have never seen mentioned on this subject is eye color. I have blue eyes and for the last 10 years, I have to wear sunglasses, even on bright overcast days. My eye doctor says her patients with blue eyes have lots of sun glasses. Blue eyes fade faster than say brown eyes. I wonder if this is a factor on why some shooters are great shots with irons. Lord knows I am no good with irons, I put a scout mount on my M1 Garand!
I note that one of the cures for older eyes is a aperture that sticks to your glasses and cuts down the light and increases focal length (keep things at different distances in focus). I have trifoculs now, and cannot clearly see the front sight on rifles or pistols no matter what I do. Peep sights help, but nobody has anything to fear from me taking first place with irons.
Dale M. Lock
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Go to “MILITARY RECORDS” on the CBA Website and take a look at the scores and groups shot with Military Issue Class rifles. Some of those were shot with '03-A3's (issue aperature sights) but Dick Elliot's name is in there and I know he shoots open sights. I managed to get in there for 10 round target (score) at 300 yds, but I shoot an '03-A3.
As far as old and/or blue eyes are concerned, I'm a blue eyed 84 year old - but I have had cataract surgery with plastic lens inserts in both eyes.
Iron sights will never be as accurate as 'scopes, but they are capable of surprising accuracy.
Wes
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