How flat should bullet be for tubular magazine?

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  • Last Post 12 November 2011
Balhincher posted this 18 January 2010

I have two lever action Marlins and am looking for some guidance about bullet noses appropriate for the tubular magazines.  I understand that in general you use a flat nosed bullet so the point will not strike the primer of the cartridge ahead of it in the magazine but “how flat” does the bullet actually need to be. 

For instance one of the rifles is a Model 36 in 30-30 and I have a couple of 30 caliber cast bullet designs  I'd like to try in it.  These  have a small flat nose that isn't larger than the primer diameter and would still rest on the primer rather than the rear of the case.  Of course I can load two at a time and not have any problem with even a pointed bullet but wonder just how big the flat nose diameter should be for safe operation.  For instance if the diameter of the flat is about the same as the primer would that be unlikely to cause it to fire?

The other rifle is a .357 mag model 94 carbine and I have a H&G RN bullet I'd like to use but again I don't know about the safety of RN lead bullets in tubular magazines.

I used the search function to look for comments about this topic on the forum but really didn't find any direct answer nor can I find any mention of it in other reference books I've checked.

With all the knowledgeable shooters hanging around this forum, I figured I could get an answer here (or at least some good opinions).

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RicinYakima posted this 18 January 2010

OPINION! (Don't know how good though!)

If the 30 caliber bullet was designed for 30/30, even smaller than the primer, it is most likely safe. The flat surface of the nose spreads the recoil bounce over a large surface of the face of the primer. Lots of folks have used Lyman #31141 (311041) for years with no problem.

The round nose is an issue with higher recoil bounce in the tube magazine. However, the Lyman #311291 again has been used for years with no known problems. In a 357, as long as the recoil wasn't excessive, I would think that it would be fairly safe.

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Fred Sinclair posted this 18 January 2010

Take a look at this. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=72491>http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=72491

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CB posted this 18 January 2010

I knew about the FN being at least the size of the primer concept, I am ot not that big of a fan of the RN 30-30 bullets, but I do cast and shoot them. I do like the flat nose design and have stuck to them for a long time.

Jerry

 

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RicinYakima posted this 19 January 2010

Fred,

Read though the “booits” posts. Not much there, as high primers lessen the chance of primer chain reaction in the magazine. Also, laying them on their sides on a flat table isn't how they are ordered in a magazine under spring pressure.

McPhersen in “Precision Shooting” about 10 years ago got a chain reaction in a 30/30 set up for a magazine test fixture. I believe he had to use military ball or hollow point match bullets and drop a 12 pound weight from 30 inches to get a primer to pop in a magazine with spring.

I'm not saying it can't happen, but it is like shooting low number Springfields, you pays your money and you take your chances!

Ric

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JetMech posted this 19 January 2010

Saeco 315s have a small meplat, about primer diameter. Although now marketed as a “benchrest” bullet, it's original design intent was for use in the 30-30.  Lyman 311041's also have a relatively small meplat and I've used the for years in my Marlin with no problem, even with Federal primers, which are discouraged from use in the Lee Auto primer, because of concerns over possible inadvertant detonation during seating. My take on it is to simply avoid pointed or round nose bullets that would deliver a concentrated blow to the primer and use Winchester or CCI primers.

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Ed Harris posted this 19 January 2010

I would caution those who use pistol primers for cast bullet rifle loads for use in tubular magazine rifle.

Either the recoil needs to be light in the range of the .32-40 Winchester, for small meplats, 1/2 of the bullet diameter in .25-35, .30-30 and .32-40

OR the bullet must have a meplat as large in diameter as the primer, for hard kickers such as the .444 Marlin and .45-70.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 19 January 2010

Of course the milder .32-20,  .38-40, .44-40 with standard loads and bullets are no problem.

I would not use roundnose bullets In full .357 loads, but stick to the cowboy bullets and SWCs.

Roundnosed .38 Special non+P in tube magazines are OK.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 19 January 2010

I agree with Ed on a lot of this. I do not use pistol primers on my rifle loads.

The bullets I use are large faced FN and they work well in my 30-30, 35 Remy and my 45-70 Marlins.

I would rather use a reduced sharge in my 30-30 or 35 Remy than go to a pistol cartridge

Jerry

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CB posted this 19 January 2010

Oh, the best cast bullets for the Marlin rifles are the Ranch Dogs, they were designed to use the microgroove bore, but Ranch Dog is no longer.

I have the 30 caliber mold, the 35 mold, both the 44 molds and both of the 458 molds. As well as the Lee Luber/Sizer that RD recommedned for his bullets, I do have dies for my Star Sizer to do these bullets also.

A half dozen 'yotes lost their lives to Ranch Dog bullets in my backfield.

Jerry

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EdS posted this 24 January 2010

Jerry:  Your statement that Ranch Dog design bullets are best prompts me to ask you about seating depth and crimping.  I have 30 caliber Ranch Dog bullets that I've tried essentially un-sized, that is run through a .311 die to seat gas checks only; and also tried sizing at .309".  When crimped at the forward-most groove, in properly trimmed 30-30 brass, and chambered in either my Marlin Microgroove or my old Winchester M-94, the bullets are heavily engraved by the rifling.  I mean that they are pushed hard into the rifling.  What am I doing wrong?  Many Thanks, Ed

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afish4570 posted this 28 January 2011

I just read Ranch Dog passed away...in Miestros post.  Who is running the business now as I  sent Ranch Dog an email about a future group buy...afish4570

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6pt-sika posted this 28 January 2011

afish4570 wrote: I just read Ranch Dog passed away...in Miestros post.  Who is running the business now as I  sent Ranch Dog an email about a future group buy...afish4570

What he meant was RD had stopped production of his molds !

 

But thats no longer true as he has started production again !

Matter of fact we emailed each other just yesterday . So if he wasn't here in the living I must have been talking with a very inteligent ghost !

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tturner53 posted this 29 January 2011

Yes, he is alive and doing business. Besides his well thought out and tested lever action molds he also has designed molds for pistols, also well thought out and tested. I bought a 6 cav. 100 gr. for a .380 just a month ago or so. The molds are 6 cav. by Lee and have very high quality. The little .380 bullet works perfectly in my Bersa at jacketed velocities and is way more accurate than I would have expected. He is a big fan of a large meplat for terminal effect.

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rjmeyer314 posted this 31 July 2011

Lyman 311291 is a round nose mold. Ken Waters gives 30-30 loads for it in his Pet Loads book, as well as in Ken Waters' Notebook book. I've used it in my 30-30 Winchester 1894 carbine with no problems.

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PETE posted this 31 July 2011

Personally I wouldn't use any bullet that didn't have a flat meplat larger than the primer in a tubular magazine rifle for any reason.

Pete

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1kshooter posted this 31 July 2011

only thing I can add is that if you are using any cast bullet i would strongly recomend culling the bullets that have a sharp seam line on top as I feel that or any nose imperfection could cause or incress the chance of a tubbular mag detnation!

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giorgio de galleani posted this 31 July 2011

Though the only story I have read about a tubular magazine exploding was one about a 45/70 in a Winchester leveraction in the late XIX century,I agree about the idea of using flat nosebullet,with the meplat flat and bigger than the primers.

 

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galenaholic posted this 01 August 2011

When I first started handloading for the 30-30, back around 1956 or may 1957, the bullet I used was the Lyman #311291. I use that bullet to this day in a couple of M94's and a Marlin 336. Some of the loads equal full power factory load that I've used for deer hunting. I've taken 17 deer over the years with cast bullets, 15 of them with #311291 in the 30-30. I've always use CCI 200 primers at first them switched to Winchester WLR primers when I got a serious amount of misfires from one batch of primers. This was with loads using cast and jacketed bullets I just couldn't trust them to make the gun go bang. I'd never use a pistol primer in a tubular magazine rifle, especially with my full power hunting loads,even if they are cast bullets. Paul B.

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Johnny Breedlove posted this 15 September 2011

I am a little late on this one. This is a very good subject as I have heard that FN is what should be used in tubler magazines. I have been using a Mod 94 32 Win. for well over 40 years. ( This gun belonged to my grandfather, and when he gave it to me he gave me at least two boxes of ammo for it. They were round nose 170 gr. I think they were Remington. I have been shoot J-words and cast Round nosed boolits ever since I got it. The gun now belongs to my grandson.

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w30wcf posted this 11 November 2011

A round nosed cast bullet was the first gc bullet designed for the .30-30. The 311291 has been around since 1906  and has worked just fine for 100+ years.:D

Lay two 30-30 rounds nose to tail on a table and see where the bullet nose lines up on the preceeding round. That's the way they line up in the magazine.

w30wcf

      

   

 

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EdS posted this 11 November 2011

Has anyone used a transparent tube of the correct diameter to simulate a tubular magazine? I suspect that the longitudinal pressure from the magazine spring, working through a reasonably flat-faced follower would influence the alignment of ammo in the magazine. I doubt that the ammo would lie exactly as it would absent the spring and follower. -Ed

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shastaboat posted this 11 November 2011

I was thinking the same thing as EdS. I looked at the design of the Saeco 315 and I think that it would be safe as any other flat or round nose bullet for tube magazine. I would certainly use rifle primers and not pistol primers in 30-30, 32 special, etc...Another thought would be to use nothing harder than WW which can be shot to 2200 fps in a GC bullet with ease.

Because I said so!

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w30wcf posted this 11 November 2011

Eds,

No but in a Winchester '94 one can see how the cartridges are delivered into the carrier from the magazine.

I loaded 4 .30-30 cartridges in the magazine and here are the results:

1st cartridge out - nose against the left side 2ndcartridge out - nose against the right side 3rd cartridge out - nose against the left side last cartridge out - nose against the right side

I did this twice with the same result. In thinking this through, here's what happens in loading:

The first cartridge in rests with it's nose against the left side of the magazine since it is angled that way. When the second cartridge goes in, pressure against the left side of the base of the first cartridge causes the first cartridge's nose to move position to the right side of the magazine. When number three goes in, it's nose rests against the base of cartridge number two, but number two can't change position since it's nose is locked into the left side of the base of number one cartridge because of the “uphill” angle of number one's base.

When cartridge number four goes in, the pressure against the left side of the base of number three cartridge causes the nose of number three cartridge to slide over the base of number two cartridge which is “downhill” to the right, thus locking the nose of number three cartridge to the right and the nose of number four cartridge to the left.

As they say, a picture is worth a 1,000 words.....

w30wcf

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shastaboat posted this 11 November 2011

Good pics. The nose on that 110 gr bullet seems smaller than the Saeco bullet

Because I said so!

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w30wcf posted this 11 November 2011

The diameter on the nose of the 110 gr REM-UMC cartridge is .15".  The W.R.A. CO version is smaller at .12".  The cartridge is shown in the carrier / lifter ready to be chambered.

w30wcf  

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shastaboat posted this 12 November 2011

OK, what have we learned?
1. Fully seat primers 2. Maybe stay away from Federal primers 3. Use only rifle primers (they are harder) 4. Accidents can happen even to advanced handloaders and shooters.

Because I said so!

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