Cast softnose sucess on meat

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Von Gruff posted this 15 January 2010

Have posted this on the castboolit forum and will post the link here rather than write it all out again.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=72924>http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=72924

 

Von Gruff.

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Reg posted this 15 January 2010

Nice country and would say nice shooting too. Could you go into a little more detail on how you cast these heads. They look great and obviously preform quite well. Would like to try the concept myself but not real sure whats going on here. Thanks Reg

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Von Gruff posted this 15 January 2010

Giday Reg, The softnose is first and formost just a hunting bullet. I first cast a number of soft bullets in 50/50 pure lead and an alloy of 90/10 ww/lino. Straight ww would do but I had 40lb or so of the 90/10 on hand from another trial. I made a jig to cut a portion of the nose off and adjusted it till I got 65gn. This is no more sofisticated than a piece of brass 3/8 thick with a hole in that the bullet base will drop through. I put it in the vice flush with the top and put a hardwood block under it to rest the bullet base on and cut the protruding nose of with a hacksaw. It is by adjusting the size of the hardwood block that dictates how much nose protrudes.

Trim any rags off the saw cut and with the casting pot FULL of lino a nose in the mould is topped off with lino. The sprew sets quickly then the mouls is put into the pot till the sprew plate is just short of the surface. When the sprew re-melts hold for another 1/2 minute. I have a wet towel on a stool behind me ( water well away from pot) and dab the base of the mould onto various parts of the towel till the sprew re-sets. Wait a further 1/2 minute or so and turn out the bullet. You will seel the join line as a change in colour. This will (should) shoot to the same poi as the full lino bullet and this means you only have to cast fifty or so softnoses for a season's hunting. The rest of your plinking-playing can be with your standard lino bullet. This means you can develope a good accurate load with as much vekocity as you think you need then softnose a few for hunting purposses. I was able to get 2415fps with mine and 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 in for 5 at 100 so good for 250yds. Zero at 150 so only down 3.3 at 200 and down 9in at 250 where it is still going 1800fps.

 

Von Gruff.

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RockChuck posted this 16 January 2010

Mr. Von Graf,

Thank you very much for sharing this information.  I have been pondering on how to produce softnose bullets and was leaning towards buying two identical molds (as identical as they get anyway) and machining down one set of blocks to just the nose portion.  Your approach seems inherently better and is field proven and has much less hassle factor.  Your country is very scenic but I already knew that from the movies based on Mr. Tolkeins' trilogy.  Thanks again for sharing your hunt and knowledge with us all.

Chuck Martin

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CB posted this 16 January 2010

I use a mix 50/50 of WWs and range lead for my hunting bullets. I do use a gas check on many, but for my 45-70 I use a plain base bullet. I do size them .001 or .002 over the actual bore diameter.

These have worked for me the last couple of years and I will probably use them well in to the future.

Jerry

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Reg posted this 17 January 2010

Mr. Von Gruff Thank you for this information. Made up a 30-30 on a Martini action that handles well in the field and likes lead bullets. Have been wanting to take it deer hunting and was looking around for a good bullet. I think I will go with one with a bit more flat nose but the process you discribe should work well with any design. Excellant idea Sir, and I do thank you. Reg

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Tony65x55 posted this 19 January 2010

I've been making cast soft noses for about 25 years and they work very nicely. I make them for .30-30, .358 and .444. I use a couple of different methods and they both work. I set up two lead pots, one with 50/50 lead/ww and a bottom pour with whatever metal the gun shoots best.

I take a steel Makarov casing with a coat hanger handle and after heating it thoroughly in the lead pot, I cast the nose of the bullet with the little Makarov dipper, count to five and pour the base of the bullet. As the mold is heating up there is sometimes a slight crease between the two but after the mold is heated properly there is no line, just a change of color as the two metals transition. They shoot as great as mono-metal bullets and expand beautifully as low as 1100 fps.

I use a different method if the gun shoots ww metal bullets well. I cast the bullets of 50/50 lead/ww and water quench them straight out of the mold. This gives them about the same hardness as straight air cooled wheel weight metal. After a couple of days I stand the bullets up in water up to the crimp groove and heat the noses with a propane torch. When the nose changes color I stop. This annealing removes the temper the water quench put in, but only from the nose. This gives you a mono-metal bullet with a soft nose and a harder shank. They shoot the same as ww bullets and expand well. You'll ruin a few noses getting the knack but after you've done a few, it's pretty easy.

I hope this helps.

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Von Gruff posted this 19 January 2010

Tony I did try the two pot method by using the base of a 221 case for the small amount of nose material but this was not very effective.  As I use straight lino for my normal cast bullet there is no water drop and therfore  anealing of the nose would not have worked in this instance. I recognise the effectiveness of the methods you describe but in my case the method I use is the most efective for me, and the results speak for themselves.

 

Von Gruff. 

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Tony65x55 posted this 20 January 2010

Indeed they do Von Gruff. Success is its own yardstick and you certainly achieved that. My points were not to diminish your success but merely to illustrate there were several paths to achieving the goal.

Out of curiosity, what were the problems you encountered with the two pot method?

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Von Gruff posted this 20 January 2010

As noted I used a 221 Rem case cut down but I found that (even with everything hot) I was getting an inconsistent amount into the mould. This may have been because I have a home made ladel and with this I start my pour as I aproach the mould to get the size stream that is most efective. I just found it dificult to start the pour from the tiny case base and get it all in the mould, although maybe a diferent shaped handle may have helped.I found the change to the lino base was giving a wrinkled and  definite fracture line and had many break at this point. I didn't trust the resulting bullet to perform the way I wanted. 

I found I could control the procedure more accurately and consistently with the doner nose, base fill and remelt aproach.

 

Von Gruff. 

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Tony65x55 posted this 20 January 2010

I understand. I have had similar issues but found the problem was the mold/melt temperature. I cast the base metal pretty hot and I only get the defective bond now for the first few bullets. Mind you, I am not using lino for the base. If I understand correctly, lino has a lower melt temperature than ww metal and perhaps that's the key to my success with the two pot method. As well, the steel makarov dipper is kept in the melt so it stays very hot and produces consistent pours. I count to five to allow the nose section to solidify then pour the very hot metal base. It works for me and I find I can pour a fair number of them pretty quickly with a solid, seamless weld between the two.  Weight consistency is as good as mono-metal bullets

Your method is working very well for you and I share your enthusiasm for the bi metal cast soft nose, particularly in the smaller calibers like the .30-30. The performance is very good, kind of like an all-lead Nosler Partition without the price tag.  I hope more folks try these methods as they produce very good hunting bullets.

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Von Gruff posted this 20 January 2010

I have to acknowledge that I was probably a bit hasty in dismissing the 2 pot method because I think all along I had a preference for the doner nose anyway. I have also cast for the big bores. Do you  SN the 444. I had a re-shaped Lee mould that dropped a 287gn bullet I HT in WW over 22gn H110 for my 44 mag and thay worked on the goats as the big hole through them was suficient without any expansion required. Similarily with my 404 Jeffery and a 350GC lino over 63gn H4350 makes a big hole as well. The same bullet in HT WW over 87gn H4350 for 2416 or 79gn Varget for 2465fps may be a candidate for nose anealing but again a big hole in an animal may preclude the necesitity.

 

Von Gruff.

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Tony65x55 posted this 21 January 2010

I have soft pointed the .444 with great results but haven't for quite a while. Expansion in wet lap was textbook but I was using one on a deer hunt and it blew a 4” hole clean through little critter. Like you, I decided that a simple flat meplat was sufficient for any animal I'm going to shoot with it. The Lee 310 gr and the 300 gr Ranch Dog have flattened everything I've shot with it, including moose and bears. A big-enough hole and incredible penetration.

I soft pointed the 240 gr Lee Semi wad and the 310 gr Lee for use in the .44 Magnum. I only shot one deer with it before I sold the rifle but my buddy has killed a bunch with my bullets. Big holes and lots of killing power.

I have soft pointed a whack of .358's for the .358 Winchester and they work great! I use the 245 gr Saeco at 2300 fps and it outperforms any j-bullet I've ever tried in it, at least to 200 yards.

My sons and I have killed a number of deer and black bear with soft point .30-30's. This little cartridge really benefits from the soft point, as would your wonderful 7x57. It really hits hard for a .30-30 round and for hunting, we don't use any other bullet.

My current projects are soft noses for the .35 Remington and the 7.62x39. I have data for the .35 Remington to move the 245 gr bullet at 1900+ fps and I think it will really improve the performance of this mild little cartridge. For the 7.62x39 I have a 150gr Saeco mold that casts a 150 gr flat nose .30-30 bullet. This bullet casts at .313 and fits this cartridge very well. I have data to move to move it at 2200+ fps, placing it solidly into .30-30 country.

Right now it's pretty cold in Canada and range testing is chilly at best.  When the weather improves a bit I'll get started testing for these.

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jwhite posted this 02 February 2010

I too have used softpointed cast boolits with great results.  I first used them in my .348 where they worked a little too well, sort of like using a ballistic tip causing quite a bit of meat loss if hit in the shoulders.  This year two deer were taken with the 7.62 x 39 using a softpointed 165gr LBT lfn boolit @ right around 2000fps and they worked perfectly, great expansion and complete penetration.  Both these deer were shot by youth hunters who really like the fact that the 7.62 x 39 is so gentle on the shoulder, it allows them to shoot better with out getting beat up by a heavier caliber. 

I also shot a deer using the same LBT bullet and velocity but instead of softpointing the bullet I inserted a strip of tinfoil into the mold blocks to form a pre-split nose.  I had high hopes for this split nose bullet as it worked great when tested in wet news paper but it did not seem to impress the deer very much, wound channel was the same a plain cast bullet.  Deer travelled over 100 yards with a poor blood trail, shot was right behind the shoulder, nicking the top of the heart and hitting both lungs.  The boolit did split at the nose as I had two exit holes and found the other nose section in the hide on the off side.   I am sure that if I had aimed a little farther fwd. and gone though the shoulders it would have performed better but I was really wanting a comparison of the split nose to softpointed boolit in similiar conditions.  After a lot of experimenting and actual hunting use I think the softpoints are great but it is also hard to beat 50/50 alloy at a muzzle velocity of 1750-2000fps, this alloy will always give decent expansion and penetration.

This link over to cast boolits forum has some pictures of testing I did on these LBT boolits in the 7.62 x 39.  http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=38175

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Von Gruff posted this 02 February 2010

First let me offer a welcome to the cast bullet forum. That was an interesting post on your splitnose.All these differing aproaches to the one problem of getting the animal from his natural state to one of recovery for the freezer. My initial and on going difficulty was that I often have an animal in the open country that may be from 20 to 250 yds away and the usual velocity cast bullet velocity of under 2000fps was a factor in choice of methods. At 2415fps from a 150yd zero I am only down 9 in at 250 so it simplifies things somewhat. Was there a reason other than it was simpler to split nose rather than softnose that had you go that road. I quite enjoy the process of softnosing even with the little bit of time it takes, and I don't need a big number of them for a season.

Von Gruff.

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Tony65x55 posted this 04 February 2010

JWhite, thanks for the great info. It seems my 7.62x39 project is on the right track, judging from your obvious success. The pics are great.

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Mnshooter posted this 10 February 2010

I have shot a few deer with cast bullets now. One I shot at 140 steps with a 30-30. The bullet had a Mv of about 1900 fps. It was a 188 gr flat point made out of chilled birdshot. I size the bullets, temper them and coat them with a couple of coats of Lee Tumble Lube. I set aside a few bullets for hunting and place the bases in a pan of water that covers the bases and anneal the noses. The deer I hit at 140 yards had a respectible hole in it and was laying folded up on its legs. Another I got this year same load I hit through the shoulders and had to throw away about a 4 inch diameter hole. Did not blow things up like a HV jacketed bullet. Have grown very fond of these bullets as they kill without destroying a lot of meat. Even head shot a grouse with one.

DP

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sixshot posted this 10 April 2011

Softnose cast work great & it doesn't take may to get you through the season. I've taken deer, elk & moose using them, mostly is a Ruger 5 shot 480 (custom) a friend used my loads & gun for his moose last year, one shot, just like my moose & down & out in 10 seconds with complete penetration. I use the 2 pot method with very few rejects once the mould & alloy temps are correct. Also has worked great in a Ruger 357 Maximum for deer, always complete penetration & very good expansion. I use a cut down 380 case & make sure the pure lead nose is forward of the ogive.

Dick

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