When shooting cast with the 38 special cartridge will the accuracy be greater in a pistol chambered for the 38 special or the 357 mag? Does the mag chamber reduce the accuracy of the special ? The reason I ask is because I have a hankerin' for a cowboy gun and like the 38 special loads but if the 357 chamber is detrimental to the accuracy of the special then I will just have to pay more and get a pistol chambered expressly for the special instead of the easier to find 357 mag. I have no interest in the mag cartridge, I am way more interested in the decreased recoil of the special. I know you can download the 357 to 38 velocity but that leaves too much annular space in the case. I prefer a case at least 60% full and more if possible. Regards...g
38 special revolvers with cast
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Since I have “old eyes” I find the rear sight notch is the deciding factor on accuracy.
I think the debate on 38 cases vs. 357 would be limited to only target shooters.
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Might as well start with the most accurate combination, right?
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FWIW,
I shot one season of ISU International Duel competition with a 6” Colt Python in the mid-1970's. The best load was a 38 Special 148 grain wadcutter loaded in 357 cases. The powder charge was 2.7 / 3.0 grains of Bullseye. What is different was that the bullet was seated down into the case about 3/8 inch below the case mouth, no crimp.
Now you are on your own for pressure data, as internal volume is quite small and pressures are higher than normal loading procedures. But when tested with a Ramson Rest, it would hold the 1.4 inch oval shaped center ring at 50 meters. With 38 Special cases, there would be “nickers” on the edges.
So does the 38 cases reduce accuracy when fired in 357 chambers? Yes. But how many 1/16's of an inch do you want to reduce the group at your longest distance?
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If you can tell the difference you are a better shot than I am.
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i have shot both but always went back to 38 cases as 357 cases were harder to find. i never could tell the difference as i am not good enough to know. Run some tests and let us know. I would think it would take at least 25 groups with each to take the human element out of it and know if it makes a difference. joe gifford aka argie1891
if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand
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Fellas, I don't fancy my ability with a handgun to any great degree but it has always been my habit both with a pistol or a rifle to first seek the most accurate combination and then shoot it to the best of my ability. I am sure there are times I go “over the edge" in my preparations but when I go to the line I am certain that I have the edge in accuracy if not ability. You only have to do the accuracy work once, then it just becomes repitition. When I prepare a pistol it is with a scope over solid bags and if it is windy enough for windflags, well, that's a good day to just drink whiskey.:P
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times you go over the edge, okayyyyyyyyyyyy,lol dunno what ya are after or what you are wanting to play. those SASS fellows throw a lot of lead pretty fast. actaully I think who ever can unload all their guns the fastest wins, then ya only need to hit a few targets. knowing you, you would look good with bisley in 38, ivory grips of course. Speaking of whiskey tried a new one on me the other day. buffalo trace, ain't bad, first taste is sweetish and oak , finish is some what sweet and no it has no buffalo after taste nor have I awaken in a cold sweat in a buffalo stamped. iwill give a holler next year some time. jeff
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Hey Guys, I just worked the load up and got help testing in the Ramson Rest. My shooting partner could tell the difference, as he would average about one (1) point less with 38 brass. My shooting buddy, coach and mentor was Martin Buehler. He is an NRA distinguished pistol shot, 15 time Presidents 100, all Navy and Marine Corps champion, US 1980 Olympic team member. He also is the one who told me to forget pistol shooting and take up golf, as you will remember from some of my older posts on pistol shooting.
Ric
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Nice to hear from you again Jeff. Actually I am just getting a bit tired of the benchrest and the long range rifle and would like to do a bit of pistol shooting. Picked up a custom pin gun made from a S&W 10 that shoots well with the 158 swc and would like to try to tighten it up a bit with the 148wc. Who knows, maybe I will try the field pistol IHMSA events with a standing revolver and shoot off hand. Should raise a few eyebrows at least. I am sure the troops will think I have slipped a cog. In your experience with cast are the 100 meter rams in fp doable with the 148 wc and 3 gns of B'eye? Dunno if the pistol is capable of that accuracy at distance but I will sure enjoy giving it a try...........Regards...g
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I would go with the 358311 if at all possible. The wc and swc just won't fly as well much past50.
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Since I don't cast I must go with a commercially available bullet. Do you have a recommendation in that area?
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times you go over the edge, okayyyyyyyyyyyy,lol
dunno what ya are after or what you are wanting to play. those SASS fellows throw a lot of lead pretty fast. actaully I think who ever can unload all their guns the fastest wins, then ya only need to hit a few targets.
knowing you, you would look good with bisley in 38, ivory grips of course.
Speaking of whiskey tried a new one on me the other day.
buffalo trace, ain't bad, first taste is sweetish and oak , finish is some what sweet
and no it has no buffalo after taste nor have I awaken in a cold sweat in a buffalo stamped.
iwill give a holler next year some time.
jeff
Buffalo Trace is some pretty good stuff. It's distilled about an hour from my house (well, so is every major bourbon). If you want a nice bourbon to try, go buy a bottle of Bulleit Bourbon (not a spelling mistake, but still pronounced “bullet"). Good stuff.
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G I will look around some and see who has what. The full wadcutters wanted to tumble on me. A semi wadcutter shot a bit better. The roundnose was better yet. Look a Missouri bullet company, when you get a chance. They were as cheap as i have seen. i have not shot any of them but some around here have had good luck with them. They can be a bit slow in shipping as they are a small outfit. I heard through the grape vine they were making up a big order for Graff's? If so I would guess they may just go to all whole sale, or their prices will go up............. amb1935 Dunno why I even bought a bottle of bourbon. I have a gallon of corn juice from kentucky. Clear as air. I get a couple of gallons a year. This last batch is not near as good as some of the others. I have had the Bulliet before. Not bad for the price. I really like the Booker, but dang that stuff is pricey! I just finished a bottle of Gentleman Jack Special single barrel that I had been holding back for a few years. Knob Creek is another one I like. Though it seems like it can vary from time to time? Wild Turkey Rare Bird I think is an excellent one for the $. jeff
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One of the most accurate revolvers I have is a pre WWII S&W 357 Magnum which was used exclusively for bullseye pistol matches until I purchased it in the 1970's. I have only shot it with cast lead 38 Special loads and have not experienced any problems. I do clean the chambers with an oversize bronze brush and Hoppes#9 after each range session.
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HAmmer - Remember that you likely won't achieve a high load density with a 38 case either. With fast powders (hp38/W231)and Magnum primers it doesn't matter. BE careful.
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Get you 357 mag peacemakers,The Pietta are made with the best and strongest steels,while the blackpowder caliber guns are proportioned to their lower pressures(38sp,45lc,44WCF et coetera).
You shall double charge a 38 sp case.Murphy's Law.
The quest for extreme accuracy in a 1873 pistol is meaningless.
All the most accurate 38sp wadcutter targetloads are loaded with a minuscule charge of under thre grains of bullseye.
Cowboy action shooting is different from 1000 yards benchrest.
Get a chronograph,a progressive loading machine and shoot at least 15000 rounds of ammo.
Use whatever brass you can get for free.
After that you too will have the right to have your opinions,even to disagree with me.
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gdg, the man has more than likley spilled more powder than a lot of folks will ever burn. I say that in truth and not to be a smart aleck. If I could shoot as good as he does on his poor days, I would be a happy camper. He is some what shy in what he has achieved in his shooting ability. Now if he reads this his head will swell up two hat sizes,lol. Honestly he has helped my a BUNCH in getting my standing scores up where they can be.
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Alas,my belly is swelling,my ego is immense already.
And I know the recipe to loose weight,I should eat a little less and spende a couple of hours a day on my mountain bike.Not uphill,just pedal at 70 rpm in the plain.
But the weather is too hot ,now.In the spring it rained most every day ,and I hate the indoor cyclette.
When I want some accuracy,at 25 feet Pins ,I use this Mod 27,and I have never been able to see the difference between 38 and 357 brass.
I can just tell the difference between good bullets and very bad bullets in the accuracy departement.
And in rifle offhand &practice almost anything will do,in bench rest shooting,only the best brass and bullets will be ok.
The secret ,in my not humble opinion ,is in practicing a lot,and perfect practice makes perfect scores.
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A number of years ago (well, a LOT of years ago:() I had occasion to run a number of my local club members .357's over a Ransom Rest using both .38 Wadcutters (including some fine factory match ammo) and .357 cased target loads. Most revolvers shot as well with .38 Special cases as .357 Magnum cases.
However, occasionally a revolver would be found that did noticeably better with .357 Magnum cases (NEVER the other way around).
The real answer is to try YOUR revolver and act accordingly.
I have a number of .357's and they all do quite well with .38 Special cased W/C loads at target velocity.:^:
YMMV Dale53
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Skeeter Skelton promoted a +P+ load using .38 brass and 2400 in a .357 revolver only. I'm going to try it since I have many thousands of .38 cases and only hundreds of .357. I know that doesn't directly address the accuracy question but if it was good enough for Skeeter it's worth a try.
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Skeeter's published loads are too hot. In my Ruger days I tested #358156GC with 13 grs. of #2400 in Federal .38 Special cases with F200 primers pressures and it approximated .357 proof pressure. I would not load more than 9 grs. of #2400 in .38 Special cases.
For my Ruger revolvers load the Saeco #348, 146-gr. DEWC in Federal wadcutter cases, with Federal 200 primers and 9.0 grs. of #2400, seating the bullet sprue forward with the bevel base outside the case mouth in .38 Special brass, with a normal roll crimp. This fills the case with effectively zero airspace, but without powder compression. Velocity chronographs 900 f.p.s. from an SP101 revolver with 2-inch barrel and 1050 f.p.s. in a Police Service Six with 4-inch barrel.
In .357 brass you can increase the charge to 10.0 grs. of #2400 with the 146 DEWC. Ballistic uniformity is excellent and you get a clean burn even in short barrels, thanks to the reduced airspace.
Maximum load for long-range revolver and Marlin cowboy rifle is 10 grs. of #2400 with Federal 200 primers with the 190-gr. NEI #161A or similar LBT .358-190WFN seated out to 1.55” OAL in .38 Special brass crimping in the top lube groove, or the same charge in .357 brass, but crimping in the normal crimp groove at 1.58” OAL. When cast of suitable strong alloy this load groups about 3 inches at 100 yards from the Marlin cowboy rifle and I have great fun ringing an 8-inch gong at 100 yards with the revolver.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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whewwhwee. That revolver at 100 yds is a real feat. Now I have somthing to shoot for (and likely never achieve with a handgun.)
I hopw NOT to hijack the thread,,,,,but:hijack:
How is WC brass different from any other brass?
Is there a “best” WC for 38 ,,,357?? generally of course.
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I think the WC brass is the stuff with a cannelure in it, helps keep the wad cutter from pushing back in the case. 3” groups at 100? Heck, I was doing that with my Red Ryder when I was a kid.
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That revolver at 100 yds is a real feat. Now I have somthing to shoot
How is WC brass different from any other brass? Is there a “best” WC for 38 ,,,357?? generally of course.
Wadcutter brass is thinner and has a uniform wall thickness down to the cannelure the base of the bullet rests against. Modern .38 Special brass intended for service loads is heavier walled in the body and is only thin close to the case mouth where the base of a 110-125 grain bullet rests. If you seat long-bodied bullets such as wadcutters the bullet base will cause a bulge about midway down the case body so that rounds will not chamber. If you run such rounds through the Lee facrtory Crimp Die they will chamber OK, but then the bullet bases will be squeezed down to about .353-.354 and solid base bullets will be damaged.
H&G No. 50 and clones are the most accurate cast WC in autoloading match pistols, but I load the Saeco #348 double-enders sprue forward because the bevel base exposed outside the case mouth eases use of speed loaders in revolvers. My best loads will shoot under 2 inches at 50 yards from my Colt Officer's Model Match, and around 1-1/2” for a long series of groups from my BSA Cadet Martini with Green Mountain barrel, .357 “NRA” style chamber using 6X Unertl small game scope.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I have been loading 148 Hornady HBWC in Starline brass (with Hp-38 powder) for my 1996 vintage K-38 HB, and it is amazingly accurate. I am curious about WC brass, now. Is is only available as part of the factory loads?
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I have been loading 148 Hornady HBWC in Starline brass (with Hp-38 powder) for my 1996 vintage K-38 HB, and it is amazingly accurate. I am curious about WC brass, now. Is is only available as part of the factory loads?
All my wadcutter brass was saved from once-fired factory stuff. Years ago you used to be able to buy it from Winchester and Remington, but no more.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Thanks, Ed, I feared as much. I did load up some new unfired Remington brass tonight and it was straight walled with no cannelure. I think that it is the best I can get for the moment.
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I have bunches of 38 special brass and always wondered why some had cannelures. some of my 45 auto brass has cannelure too. Is there any advantage to seating bullets out of the 38 special case closer to the end of the chamber, like that Hornady Wadcutter?
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You can try it both ways. Seating out a little bit, to 1.25” OAL may help some in. 357 chambers, but longer than that the increased airspace becomes an issue.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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A short while ago a member here recommended the LEE 358-125-RF for they .38 Special. I had been using the Lyman 358156 GC with excellent results but really wanted to get away from the gas checks. I purchased the 358-125-RF mold and what a joy that little bullet is! My cylinder throat is .3595 & I size to .360. At 25' my Taurus 2” barreled snubby is putting shot after shot in a 1 1/4” circle. This weekend I want to try that little bugger at 15 yds to see what it will do. I bought that snubby for in home protection and am very pleased with it & even more pleased with the results of that 125 gr. bullet.
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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Giorgio is very much thinner and more fit today than when the above pictures were taken. During my visit to Italy last year we walked everywhere in the little hilly walled towns of Tuscany and I lost weight in my month there keeping up with him.
I also shot both of his long barreled .38 single-actions in a cowboy match, and also on 50 meter hanging gongs at his home range, and found the cowboy loads both satisfying and accurate.
I cast him some bullets before I left, but I am quite certain they are long since downrange.
I need to make the trip back to cast him some more. We need to complete our scientific study as to whether bullet production is best listening to Vivaldi or bluegrass and Irish hornpipe and fiddle music.....
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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And please do not forget Johann Sebastian or Scottish Pipes and Drums.
I am very thin &slim.
This year I shot buckets full of cast bullets ,in cowboy revolvers and leverguns,not to forget the 911 and a Chiappa little Sharps in 38-55 at 100 meters.
Here you can see the wid bunch posse at a four day event in the plain between Padua and Venice.
Your room on Mount Athos is always ready.
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Giorgio, How do you like the little Sharps 38-55? Is that the same one being marketed by Lyman? I'm tempted.
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From what I see in the catalogs, the Lyman version is a costly , in the white, engraved version of what I have,
I had simpler sights too.
I changed the simple , no windage regulation rear peep sight with a Soule peep ,marketed by Armi Pedersoli.
I had to raise the simple sourdough front sight and put a complex target sight..
I have shot a couple of times from the bench rest and directly shot the one hundred meters cowboy match. They had lousy benches and bags of gravel on the benches..
Yesterday I have shot from offhand at 55 meters hiiting consistently 6 inch gongs.
Quite a feat for me.
I use a 250 plain base slug from a 5 cavity aluminum mould ,made by ACCURATEMOLDS. .
As I do not like too heavy rifles and bench rest shooting I love this light and very strong Chiappa rifles..
The only defect is a light hammer blow ,I have to use Winchester Large Magnum pistol primrrs.
Mr. Rino Chiappa has told me he got some stronger springs ,and am waiting fot them.
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I find my ruger gp100 doesn,t give a care which round goes down It,s barrel. A well assembled round with bullet powder combo and right shooter and gun I believe the combo must line up.
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When I was at Ruger in the mid-1980s we did Ransom Rest tests using .38 Special wadcutter ammunition of the major brands, Federal, Remington and Winchester, using GP100 revolvers with 6” barrels, firing first with .357 cylinders, and then refitting the same group of ten revolvers with .38 Special cylinders.
The .38 Special cylinders did shoot better, averaging about 2-1/2” vs. 3” at 50 yards, pooling the averages of all three ammos in ten guns. The difference is measureable, but not significant.
However, I must note that the .357 cylinders used had a more gradual 6 degree transition from the .379” diameter at the case mouth into the cylinder throats, vs. 15 degrees for the standard SAAMI and CIP chamber, which when tested previously in the earlier Security Six revolvers averaged 4 inches at 50 yards in .357 vs. 3” for .38 Special. This in firing one 12-shot group with each manufacturer of .38 wadcutter ammunition, or three brands totalling 36 rounds each gun times ten guns.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I agree that some guns do not care what cases you use, my 6” mod. 28 likes loads in both magnum cases and .38 spl. cases,{ my favorite .38 spl load is a “magnum only” 9.9gr. #2400/WSPM/173gr.Keith SWC, in win. and Lake City Military cases}, I have a 2” Taurus that does not like .357 loads as well as .38 special cased loads, I don't know if I have just not found a preferred .357 cased load or if it just likes the .38s better, but, testing with a safe and scientific bent should get a body where they want to be.
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Said a mouth full Dave, “with a safe and scientific bent” will always win the day. Ric
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I have fired many thousand 38 Special in 357 Magnum sixguns over the last 50 years. I have always read how the short cases didn't produce the same level of accuracy as the longer case.
But, you can't prove that by me. I have never used any kind of machine rest and shooting on my two hind legs, they all shot as well as I could.
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Ed, how can one recognize wadcutter brass among assorted empty brass? Seems to me I remember frequently it has grooves or cannelures along the body of the brass, while “ball” ammo brass has these only near the case mouth. Maybe if I want a good set of brass for wadcutter ammo, it makes sense to break down and buy a box of factory loads (Lord knows they are good and accurate, just a bit costly) and keep those empties as a set? I have been loading 148 Hornady HBWC in Starline brass (with Hp-38 powder) for my 1996 vintage K-38 HB, and it is amazingly accurate. I am curious about WC brass, now. Is is only available as part of the factory loads?
All my wadcutter brass was saved from once-fired factory stuff. Years ago you used to be able to buy it from Winchester and Remington, but no more.
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Tom Dugas' article will 'splain everything for you Mitch: http://www.hensleygibbs.com/TCD/articles/75000wadcutters.htm
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Well, not really. We know that WW and Win wadcutter ammo had two cannulas, but what about everything else?
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Tubing micrometer doesn't lie! Set up collet stop in lathe, expand sized cases to ring fit over lightly oiled .356 arbor to support case wall, then outside neck turn to uniform 0.010 wall thickness to 1/2” from case mouth stop surface. Tool should have 0.02 radius to avoid putting stress riser at end of cut. Clean cases in Dawn detergent to degrease then when dry, prime and load.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I always meant to ask you Ed, what are your opinions on the heavyweight wadcutter designs like 358432 for general utility and perhaps even bullseye use? Since they're not terribly popular, I'm guessing that they don't offer enough advantages to outweigh the increased recoil.
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I always meant to ask you Ed, what are your opinions on the heavyweight wadcutter designs like 358432 for general utility and perhaps even bullseye use? Since they're not terribly popular, I'm guessing that they don't offer enough advantages to outweigh the increased recoil.
These days general utility means volume production, and I never had a Lyman gang mold for 358432, and felt that I needed a pair of gang molds to run .38 wadcutters in the 100-pound batches which my buddies and I used. We needed a bullet suitable for either PPC revolvers or target autoloaders, so I gravitated towards the double-enders, because loading them sprue cutoff forward gave more consistent accuracy for us.
I shot tens of thousands of H&G #50 and they were excellent, but that bullet favored harder, more expensive alloy to ensure perfect bases, which were necessary for Bullseye work.
Recoil wasn't a factor, but stability of the longer, heavier bullets in the S&W 18-3/4” twist certainly was. The 146-grain double-enders like the Saeco #348 always gave us fine results whether shot in a Colt OM,Gold CUP NM, Python, S&W models 27 or 52, or Hammerli 240.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I shoot the Lyman 358495 with excellent results.
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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I shoot the Lyman 358495 with excellent results.
Lyman's clone of the H&G #50, a good bullet!
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Shot many thousands of them in the 1970's, always reliable.
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I shoot the Lyman 358495 with excellent results.
Lyman's clone of the H&G #50, a good bullet!
I loaded up about 50 for a friend at the Rod & Gun club. After shooting them and seeing their accuracy he announced that he had a newfound respect for the “wadcutter". LOL
If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.
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