4759 vs 5744

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Qc Pistolero posted this 25 August 2020

My stash of 4759 is quickly melting down from extensive use in my 45-70.Since I can have some 5744 by the 5 pounder at a bargain price,I was wondering if anybody replaced the former by the latter and what is your commentary about it.

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45 2.1 posted this 25 August 2020

I never had as good of groups with 5744 then I have with 4759. The last time they discontinued 4759, I got caught with 16 pounds and couldn't find anymore....... when they started making it on this go around I solved that little problem.

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Tom Acheson posted this 25 August 2020

I had a friend I shot with at NRA BPCR silhouette matches. He was sensitive to recoil. His rifle was a C. Sharps Model 74 in .38-55. He swore by 18.0 of 5744.

As I began my recent journey with a Rolling Block in 38-55, I focused on 5744. But then I stumbled on a .38-55 thread on the ASSRA forum where 300MP was preferred for that chambering. That got me thinking so I first tried it in my Savage bolt action in .308 Winch at a CBA match and it worked great. Then I started messing around with it in my Roller. 17 grains with a 335 grain bullet shoots well. But...be sure to use magnum rifle primers. 

300MP meters very well and is currently available. Some call it a slow version of H-110. 

Might be worth a try......have fun!

Tom

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Bud Hyett posted this 26 August 2020

My experience with SR 4759 was good in calibers from .308 to .45-70. The problem was they would quit producing it. When we beat on the manufacturer and finally got SR 4759 back in production, the powder was the same for loading and accuracy. 

My experience with 5744 was lot-to-lot variation. There was an original formulation that varied greatly lot-to-lot, then they ceased production. When they reintroduced the powder, it was a different formulation with the same burning rate and energy content. This formulation was better for lot-to-lot variance.

Neither formulation shot as well as SR 4759. 

Not to be a heretic, but in frustration, I dropped both and went to Reloder #7 for medium-bore and large-bore loading. Even with mid-range loads, there was the same accuracy and it was available. I load the .45-70 for several rifles from 1100 fps to 1800 fps with this powder and get good accuracy. When I had a .38-55, Reloder #7 was a good powder there, but the powder burned dirty when breech-seated.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Wineman posted this 26 August 2020

I tried 5744 about a year ago against Alliant 2400 and Varget in 30-06. In the recommend range, it threw keyholes and flyers. I was told that it now needs serious pressure to burn correctly. I believe I have the third production plant product (Czech?). SR 4759 was like an old friend. Sometimes you did not see them for years, but when you did it was like you saw each other yesterday. RIP my so useful pal. I too have some Rx7 and need to see where it falls in the pantheon of powders.

Dave

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lotech posted this 27 August 2020

A quick glance through my notes shows me that I've developed about as many accurate loads with 5744 as I have with SR4759 over many years of loading for .30-40 Krag, .308, and .30-06. I did not review data for the other cast bullet rifle cartridges I load for but don't shoot often - .32-40, .38-55, and .45-70. 

I'll agree that SR4759 may be the single best powder for many rifle cartridges using cast bullets. However, with judicious load development, I'm pretty sure SR4759 results can be duplicated with other powders including 5744, Reloder7, and H4895.

Exceptions have to be taken into account. I did come across an instance recently where a load that used the Eagan MX3-30ARD bullet and 5744 powder gave mediocre accuracy in a reasonably accurate Ruger 77V .308. Being very familiar with the history of this rifle and its accuracy potential, the results surprised me. The same load shoots very well in a Remington 700 VS. I'll have to keep at it as I think this bullet will shoot in the Ruger, just not with the powder and/ or charge I originally selected. Still, I'll keep 5744 handy. 

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Dale53 posted this 27 August 2020

Years ago I was VERY active with the Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette crowd. When I needed a smokeless or duplex load, RL-7 became my powder of choice. It has the burning rate of 4198 but measures much better and burns well. I shot 40/65 and 45/70.

FWIW

Dale53

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cfp4570 posted this 28 August 2020

I have no experience with 5744 or 4759, so there's that, but I've used quite a bit of RL-7 over the years and have been totally satisfied. Now, I'm a die hard plinker and informal shooter and don't do a lot of the hard work of chasing accuracy and load development, so my two cents here is worth just that. I will say that it was the most accurate powder I tried for my 357 maximum Contender with a factory barrel.

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Qc Pistolero posted this 10 September 2020

Well,like blondes vs redheads,some prefer the former while others will go with the latter(I prefer blackhair but married an auburn...go figure!!?!).

Since the price was irresistible and one never has enough powder,lead and primers,I got myself a 5 pounder.If my 2 45-70 don't like it,I can always use it in my 38-55 and if not in one of my 30-30 and if not...........

Thanks to you all who took time to tell me about your experience with it.

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Qc Pistolero posted this 10 October 2020

I went out today to fulfill a tough duty:shooting my 45-70!As I've explained to my wife,it is a tough job but someone has to do it.

So early this morning I was ready to test 5744 powder against my well proven but rapidly melting down 4759 powder in a head to head match.

While the latter posted a very good 1''@100 and many 1 3/8 to 2 1/2''at 100 metallic sights,5744 didn't fare so bad.Both were sparked by Federal Mag rifle primers and stuffed with Dacron(temp was in the 50's and an eastern wind of a little less than 10mph onto our north oriented range).NOE 325 gr unsized with LLA visually inspected for defects emphasize on a perfect base and segregated in 1gr increments(25:1).5744 shot groups between 1 1*2 to 3''.but at 29 gr,a trail of unburnt powder grains was left in the bbl.Next step.increase the powder charge.But I feel that this powder is telling me something good.I'll keep searching.

That is exept if they decide to bring back good old 4759!

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Qc Pistolero posted this 19 October 2020

New report:I've increased the charge to 30 gr but the trail of unburnt powder is still there.Yesterday,at the time of shooting,temp was a nice 45*F no wind.groups were the same as with 29gr.Still using Fed Mag primers and Dacron filler.

I'm going to try the other way:28gr)and if the unburnt powder is still there,might try some other powder.

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M1fuzz posted this 19 October 2020

Do you think they ever will make SR4579 again? Anyone we could call or email to try?

I have had great luck w/ IMR4227 in my cast bullet loads but, I hear so much good stuff about SR4579 I want to try it.

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RicinYakima posted this 19 October 2020

SR4759 will most likely never be made again, It is expensive to make and it took them years to sell out every batch they made.

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rmrix posted this 19 October 2020

New report:I've increased the charge to 30 gr but the trail of unburnt powder is still there.Yesterday,at the time of shooting,temp was a nice 45*F no wind.groups were the same as with 29gr.Still using Fed Mag primers and Dacron filler.

I'm going to try the other way:28gr)and if the unburnt powder is still there,might try some other powder.ghj

********************************************************************

I had not considered using a Mag primer. I have been loading my 40-60 Maynard (Hepburn) with my BPCR  P Jones 406gr Money Bullet, Standard Rem9-1/2 primer, 20.5 AA5744 and 0.7gr Dacron.

I don't know if this is the MOST accurate way to go but, it is plenty good for the 200 meter Cowboy silhouette match here locally. 1.5 - 2" 100 yards on paper. I guess trying the mag primer would be a good idea.  I ignore the unburnt powder in the barrel. Does it derail the bullet train as it heads down the barrel?  Or is it a non issue?

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Qc Pistolero posted this 19 October 2020

While I can't say that the trail of unburnt powder is affecting accuracy,I must admit that it annoys me...unburnt powder doesn't generate pressure and I guess that seing some unburnt must mean pressure is not the same round after round.

I use aprox 1gr of Dacron per rd(I weigh one and use it as a template;the others I simply tear off the strip eyeballing them to the same volume).Maybe my bullets are too light(330gr Accurate mould which comes out at aprox 325gr 25:1 mix)

Since our competition season is now over(thanks to Mr Covid 19),It gives me plenty of time to try to solve the problem.I'll try it with heavier bullets(425,525 and 530gr)and if it fails out,might resort to try 3031 or 4895.

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M1fuzz posted this 19 October 2020

Cripes!!!!!

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rmrix posted this 22 October 2020

AA5744 with standard primer (S&B)

This is the first part of a simple test using standard primers in my 40-60 Maynard. Baldwin iron sights front and rear. 100 meters on the 22rf 100yd target. I assembled these in haste using some 30-40 Krag GRAFF marked brass reformed to 40-60 Maynard. The brass is a little sticky going in and coming out and I  had to knock them back out using a rod. Being pressed for time, I chose not to fire anymore of the standard primer loads and none of the Magnum primer loads.  Okay!!! Just half a test so far ;-)

 

Posting this will give me the incentive to complete and post the rest of the test as I get time. I am trying to elk hunt now and the that is not going well. Fire is everywhere here and I can't get into my well known area so I am sitting here drinking coffee and posting things I normally would not take the time to.

Here is a picture from my place looking west last night after I got in.

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Qc Pistolero posted this 22 October 2020

Not bad at all RM.May I ask what rifle you shoot these 40-60 in?

I hope you won't loose your hunting spot because of these fires!

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rmrix posted this 24 October 2020

The rifle is a Remington Hepburn.

I tried to complete the test today but the conditions were just too windy and cold. I started to get my things out of the truck and just packed it up again. Not much to be learned in these conditions but waste ammo. I was kidding myself even thinking about shooting.

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RicinYakima posted this 24 October 2020

That time of year, again! Live in the valley at 1200 feet and the range is on the side of a ridge at 2500 feet and 20 miles away. Weather can be very different, but usually not better, higher up.

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rmrix posted this 03 November 2020

Not much real data to add but I did get a chance to shoot a few more rounds with the magnum large rifle primers v the standard rifle primers. More shooting will be needed as the few shots in two group is is not enough to show much. That high right hole was the first shot from a cold clean barrel. The other high shot was the last shot which I called high out of the group. So it could be that either primer at this point shows fairly good prospects. Some more shooting might show a difference.Magnum primers - 1st shot, clean barrel, high and right

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Qc Pistolero posted this 07 November 2020

The last two weeks saw me trying both 3031 and 4895.

3031:anything from 42 to 44 gr in .5gr increments showed 5 shot groups split in 2.They would typically group 3 very close together and the other 2 also close together but the 2 groups 1 1/2 to 2'' apart.some unburnt grains in the bbl.On the other hand,4895 leaves a lot less unburnt grains and will grop between 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 inches.All sparked with mag primer.

I am playing in the 41/43 grains area and will keep experimenting with it.In addition of my 325gr bullet,I've cast some 405gr rcbs fn bullets(they come out at 425gr)that I might try both with 5744 and 4895.I think the heavier bullet might get rid of my unburnt grains problem.

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Bud Hyett posted this 07 November 2020

I've had similar experience in .45-70  with both IMR 3031 and IMR 4895. The two-shot and three-shot group, both with touching shots and at least an inch apart are familiar. I burned a lot of primers and powder at Windhill in a Marlin 1895 trying to get them closer, but never reliably.

Reloder #7 (1400 to 1800 FPS) and Unique (900 to 1100 fps) are the most reliable .45-70 smokeless loads  powders in my experience.  The Reloder #7 loads were RCBS 45-300-FN and 45-405-FN ten-shot 1.5 inch groups, NRA Alox lube, 92-Pb/4-Sb/2-Sn alloy, sized .460.

Note: Looking for a hunting loads, I poured the powder on and completely disassembled a Weaver 4X12 variable scope testing these loads, Ed Doonan recommended a Leupold after this experience. Leupold is what I now use for .45-70 hunting rifles.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Tom Bieri posted this 14 November 2020

 

Note: Looking for a hunting loads, I poured the powder on and completely disassembled a Weaver 4X12 variable scope testing these loads, Ed Doonan recommended a Leupold after this experience. Leupold is what I now use for .45-70 hunting rifles.

 

 

If I close my eyes I can hear Ed Doonan tell the story (muffled by laughter) of the mortally wounded bench at Marston...so many found memories!

 

Farm boy from Buffalo Prairie Illinois transplanted to sunny Florida Tom Bieri

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Qc Pistolero posted this 28 November 2020

Eureka!I think I'm on a hot trail!Just for the heck of it,I took my RCBS 405gr mold and casted a few.The mold is beagled and(awith my 25:1 alloy I get 430gr worth of bullet at ?diam.I was expecting so little from it that I didn't bother to measure.

Unsized,2 light coats of LLA and no gc,I loaded them in WW cases sparked with Federal LR primers on top of 26 and 27 gr of 5744.I shoot groups of 5 at 100.The 26.0gr loads went into 1 1/2'' and the 27.0gr into 1 1/4'',all in beautifully round groups.

Next step,I'll try  26.5 and 27.5gr at both 100 and 200.If it keeps getting so good,I think I'll have Tom at Accurate cut me a 4 or 5 cavities with a flat base.

Future looks good!

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rmrix posted this 01 December 2020

Those groups sound good.

That is the same bullet and powder charge level that Mike V. reported he found to be outstanding. I questioned it and loaded some up and sure thing, it shot very well for me too.

I think the RCBS mold you have is the gas check 405 that casts 420grs in every mold I have had and others reported theirs did too.

Are you intending to have accurate make a mold as an exact copy, gas check and all?

I never felt the  gas check added much on the 45-70 molds, but I never wanted to have a plain base mold made just to test the notion.   I always added the GC and lived with it. By the way, the Hornady 45 cal gc's never stay on that RCBS mold very well and I get them loaded into the case and hope for the best.

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Bud Hyett posted this 03 December 2020

If I close my eyes I can hear Ed Doonan tell the story (muffled by laughter) of the mortally wounded bench at Marston...so many fond memories!

There are many fond memories of the years spent in Illinois before the career move to first Southern California and now in the Pacific Northwest. This incident was entirely innocent, there was clearance at the first few shots and then the rifle settled in the rest as I shot. I had moved back to the original steel rest because the concrete benches were muddy after a rain. The 6mm Remington with a 100 grain Sierra softpoint boattail and a full charge of H4831 makes a huge cloud of dust when hitting the concrete. Every time I came back in the Summer to shoot a match, Ed cleaned the plaque with Brasso and made sure everyone saw it.

Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest

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Qc Pistolero posted this 04 December 2020

Rmrix:with my mix(25:1)and lubed but no check,my bullets come out at 425gr.

Before I order my mold at Accurate,I'll run some more tests.While I'm not decided if I'll go with aluminium or steel blocks,I also have to figure if it is going to be a 3,4 or 5 cavities(weight!).

Also,instead of plain base,I might go with a bevel base like he did for my 38-55.The BB is a pain when you size and lube in a RCBS sizer but since I shoot my 45-70 with LLA,the problem would be solved.

More testing and I should have my mind set within a couple of weeks.I'll probably call it ''my special Christmas gift''!

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bravo159 posted this 07 December 2020

I got one hole groups from my kimber .45 ( one of the first run production Kimber's} at both 25 and 50 yds with a ransom rest. Unfortunately they discontinued SR4756 one of the stupidest things they could have done. I have never found it's equal in the last 10 years.

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