454 Casull Question

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  • Last Post 09 September 2024
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cove posted this 31 August 2024

A friend of mine has a .454 Casull that he has only shot a few times because it was such an unpleasant experience using factory ammo. I had read articles in TFS by Paco Kelly and Jim Lewis describing their favorable results with cast bullets in the .454 and we loaded up some commercially cast  hardcast 0.452 bullets that gave poor results.  The Ruger has 0.454 throats and groove diameter, and due to limited shooting time we switched to jacked bullets to see if we could come up with a midrange load (around 1200fps) he could use for the upcomig deer season.  Using midrange cast bullet loads suggested by Paco and Jim we loaded up some 250 grain JBs and had favorable results, but on 2 occassions stuck a bullet in the barrel (a new and unpleasant experience for me).  The stuck bullets occured with 2 different powders (W296 & H110) and 2 different primers (CCI 400 & WSR).  Loads were given a heavy crimp.  In both instances there was a pop when the primer detonated and the bullet lodged around 2 inches down the barrel.  When the bullet was removed it pushed out a hard wad of sorched powder.  I would think that if the primer had enough energy to push a JB down the barrel, it would be powerful enough to ignite the powder charge.  Is this a unique case where occasionally the small rifle primer has too much energy and creates a condition where the powder ends up acting like a filler as is pushed down the barrel along with the bullet?  Somewhere I have read that in some situations hotter (magnum) primers are not compatible with certain powders.  I have also considered the possibility that for some reason the stuck bullet  occured because that round did not receive a full crimp, the bullet moved forward prematurely and the pressure in the case was not high enough for efficient powder burn. So, as you can see, I am at a loss as to why we get the occasional stuck bullet and any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

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Tom Acheson posted this 01 September 2024

My sources say the H variant of 4227 has been dropped. I just bought a pound of the IMR variant. I’m really hoping the IMR sticks around!

Tom

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Tom Acheson posted this 01 September 2024

More on IMR 4227….

 

I was in the process of loading ammo for an upcoming match. I wanted to take (120) rounds with, we shoot 100 and 200 yards. I got to (95) rounds but then ran out of 4227 that  bought in 2022. At a recent gun club meeting I was near a Cabela's and found some 4227 there.....at a mere $76/pound.

 

At home I noticed the new powder is a lot different than the old.

 

Particle size is much larger and the shape is different. Both are made in Canada. The powder measure for the old was set at 18.5 but for the new version it is set at 20.0. This tells me the bulk density of the newer version is a bit “lighter” than the old. 

 

The newer version almost looks like 4759. They look quite similar. I did not attempt to measure anything but visually the 4759 looks just a bit larger, but not by much.

 

It would be interesting to see how the new variant groups compared to the old 4227, so during the match I shot a 5-round group and it shot smilar to the old variant.

 

Tom

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linoww posted this 02 September 2024

10g Unique and the 452424(seated over front band)  sized .452 shoot inch at 25 yards in my Scoped FA 454.I've also shot the lee 200 FN with 6g bullseye with great accuracy. 

 

my two favorite 45 Revolvers.Neither get shot very often with hot loads.i like to shoot 100 rounds when i practice rather than 20.Some enjoy recoil,im not onev of them😁

 

 

  with scope the FA Field Grade needs wheels its so awkward.

 

 

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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RicinYakima posted this 03 September 2024

You have to define "position sensitive" for us. For most of us, 50 f/s will not show on groups at 50 yards. It makes a difference on the chronograph numbers but not in real life. 

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Brodie posted this 09 September 2024

Years ago when I had first gotten my .458 Win. I tried every load I could in it and found that those cavernous tubes could be loaded with 3gr. of bullseye or a light load of Unique or Red Dot without any problems.  At one point I started experiencing squibs that would only push the bullet into the forcing cone or the beginning of the rifling.  These were with LRM rifle primers that had never failed me and 500 gr. jacketed in front of 68 to 72 gr. of IMR 3031, at the time I could not find 4895 for the life of me.  The primer would fire, the bullet would start into the rifling, and stick.  When I opened the bolt the powder was dumped into the magazine.  I found that a small kernel of walnut case cleaning media was sticking in the flash hole of the case and preventing ignition.  As a result, I would sit with the tumbled cases and examine every flashhole in every case knocking out the tumble media that stuck in some of them.  It was laborious.  It was after this that I began casting for the rifle, I was a total newbie at it, and trying every reduced load that I could.  I even used two 45Colt shot cups, remember them, and down to 3 gr. of Bullseye and a 200 gr—-cast bullet.  None of those wacky loads ever gave me a squib after I began poking the tumble media from the flash holes. 

 

B.E.Brickey

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 31 August 2024

Those two powders do not tolerate significant reduction in charge.  What was the actual load and was it within the recommendations of published load data for the cast bullet weight?

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Idahocaster posted this 01 September 2024

I've had good success with IMR 4227 and mid range loads in 454 Casull. You should be able to get a load that is equivalent to a 44 Mangum. Should not have to use magnum primers with 4227.

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Tom Acheson posted this 01 September 2024

My two go to powders in my .41 Mag. are 4227 and, belive it or not, old original WW680. I do not use jacketed bullets. But....way back when I can recall seeing warnings about reduced loads of 296 and H110. Had to be areason for those cautions. Maybe pressure spikes?

Tom

 

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cove posted this 01 September 2024

Duane - First of all, I said bore diameter when I meant groove diameter. The charges were 23 gr of 296 with CCI 400 primer and 25 gr of H110 with WSR primer. These loads are actually for 45 long Colt, the writeups point out that the .454 case is a bit longer, but is thicker than the 45 long Colt so the case capacity of the 2 is pretty close to beig the same

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cove posted this 01 September 2024

Idahocaster and Tom- Our best results were, as you guy suggested with IMR 4227 and that is what we loaded up for our next session when it stops raining.  Wasn't there a post saying that 4227 was being discontinued?  Was that just one brand?  

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Aaron posted this 01 September 2024

Having handloaded for the Freedom Arms 454 with cast bullets for over 30 years now, I can with absolute certainty, say that reduced loads of any kind are not on my plate. I attempted it once with a 255 Keith type bullet and 2400, and got a squib load which fortunately cleared the barrel but hit my chronograph.

My Casull loads are now ALWAYS lit off with a Magnum primer, Heavily crimped, and carry a full charge of H110, 296, or now Heavy Pistol. The lightest bullet used is a cast 300gr Lyman 454629AW bullet or the SSK (NEI) 345451 345gr bullet.

Primers used were always magnum primers. Some of you may know that the original NAA cases were large rifle. The cases later used, and now use small rifle primers. Regardless, magnum primers are warranted. I do not shoot 45 Colt cartridges in my Freedom Arms revolver. The chambers are way to tight to scrape lead and other residue from in front of the case mouths. My 340gr bullets have to be sized to .451 to chamber.

So my advice is use magnum primers, slow powder, and a HEAVY crimp. See images below.

The squib load. Retrieved bullet under the chronograph.

Heavy Crimp Used with original RCBS die set with Dick Casull Specified crimp.

 

 

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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Aaron posted this 01 September 2024

My two go to powders in my .41 Mag. are 4227 and, belive it or not, old original WW680. I do not use jacketed bullets. But....way back when I can recall seeing warnings about reduced loads of 296 and H110. Had to be areason for those cautions. Maybe pressure spikes?

H110 and 296 are hard to ignite. A heavy crimp, to retard shot start, is required to allow the magnum primer time to fully ignite the charge. If a light load is used or a normal primer and perhaps a wimpy crimp, the bullet moves prematurely and propellant disperses before becoming lit properly. Suffice it to say the bullet must be retarded so boiler pressure can become sufficient to ensure all the propellant is fully lit. Pressure spikes are not the issue with those powders, squibs are the issue.

 

With rifle in hand, I confidently go forth into the darkness.

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bullshop posted this 02 September 2024

Why not just shoot 45 Colt in it ?   If not then a powder like Unique shot get the velocity you want and end the squib issue.

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cove posted this 03 September 2024

Bullshop and Linoww:  I find it interesting that Unique works so well using a small charge in a big case.  We did try some loads with 12 grains and had one dud which we attributed to old primers. Loads of 10/12 grains of Unique leave quite a bit of airspace in the case.   With my 38 spl HBWC loads I elevate and tap to position the powder to the rear. Testing has shown that powder to the rear is up to 50fps faster than when the powder is level.  Is Unique position sensitive?

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linoww posted this 03 September 2024

I shoot 12-14g in.a 45-70 with no fillers.I've not had ignition issues and I often use pistol primers.My CPA 45-70 will shoot this load into 1" at 100 at times. I've used it more in old Trapdoors and under 3" at 100 is pretty common.

I load the same 12g in.a 500SW with 325g bullets and its my go to pinker load.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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bullshop posted this 03 September 2024

Chrono numbers be damned !  If its accurate shoot it.

Hey Linoww I like the Bisley.  I have one like it in 44 special but mine is a flat top

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Lee Guthrie posted this 03 September 2024

I am also a fan of Unique in reduced loads for .454 Casull.  So far have not had any problems with it.

 

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