I still need some help and here is a pic for you...

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  • Last Post 16 December 2009
Stimp posted this 28 July 2009

Hello,

I've been reloading and castin for a while now. I have a lee production pot bottom pour and lee molds. I had cast anything for ~1month now and got some new molds in to do some more casting. I also use wheel weight alloy for my lead (which i just rendered a new batch of ingot also).  Prior to my break from casting everything was dropping great, now on the other hand this is horrible. The bullets are dropping with what looks to be like sometimes some pits, others some “dirty looking” spots but smooth to touch, and sometimes near perfect (although few and far between at this time). I've tried useing the old an new molds to see if it was the molds. -> No luck as far as blaming it on the mold. I've tried a new melt of wheel weights thinking I maybe had some zinc..-> still same results with new lead and every weight was picked by hand to ensure lead. I've tried useing paraffin, beeswax, and sawdust to flux without changes. And the pot did have rust in it when I went back to use it so I tried using it at first and fluxing with bad results so I drained and cleaned everything to near perfect except for the drain hole which I cant reach. AND STILL THE SAME RESULTS. I can't narrow it down to something unless that little bit of the spout I was unable to clean. I don't know what is happening.  I'll try adding a pic to show you. On the other side of the bullets they look pretty good. Seems to be only bad on one side. Maybe the dependent side of the mold for the angle I hold when pooring?     Also, I have beent trying to cast with the new 9mm 6 cav and in addition to the above problems have been haveing wrinkled bullets from that mold.

Please throw in your two cents to help me out.

Any suggestion would be great.

Thanks

 

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Dicko posted this 16 December 2009

Dollar Bill wrote: My apologies. I did offer constructive criticism in an earlier post but you seemed to have missed it. For the record, Lee instructions state to pre-heat the mold on the edge of the casting pot. We appreciate your in-depth analysis of problems but as Wildcat, Duane, Bill, Jeff, and many other experienced casters have noted over 30+ years of casting, our experience has run counter to yours in that some folks have consistantly gotten better results with higher temps. The point being that your experiences, while helpfull, are not necessarily gospel, and you should not present them as such.

And my apologies to Stimp for dragging this off-topic. It's been 5 months since we heard from you on this topic. Any news?

I shouldn't have let my feathers get ruffled so easily, so lets get back to business.  

There's nothing special about Lee's recommendation to pre-warm the mould on the pot.   That's common sense for all moulds because a part warm mould needs less warm up time in casting.    I do it routinely precisely because it is a time saver.   But that's a different issue from the argument that aluminium moulds should be run at higher temp than other moulds.   If I appear adamant about some things it is because I have watched these things carefully because they affect output which is crucial in commercial casting.   I have not found any difference between aluminium moulds and others. 

But I will admit to having made the mistake of giving the impression that good bullets can only be cast at lower temperatures.    I did say that I can cast good bullets at 750, but I added that it is slow.   Its a fact that higher temps give a better guarantee of full fill out which is no doubt why high temp is favoured by so many   If I am guilty of anything it is assuming that others would want to maximise output and reduce the time spent casting.

So let me try to nail it down more firmly.   Adequate equipment is the factor that most affects production, ie a melter big enough to accept continuous feeding with prepared ingots, multi cavity moulds and a high speed luber like the Star.   But temperature is a close second.   High temp is the big enemy because it slows production dramatically.   So it is important to cast at the lowest temp that will fill out the mould properly.   I operate so close to the margin that a two minute stop can cool a mould below working temp and takes several minutes casting to get back up to speed.

I recognise that such fine tuning is not desired by most, and outside the ability of beginners.   I further recognise that it is probably better for beginners to err on the high side until they gain some experience.  

But note that I have not suggested that beginners should work at just over 600 as I do.   I have recommended 650 which is sufficiently higher than WW melting temp that it should work well.   Also in my defense it should be noted that high antimony alloys melt at lower temp.   Linotype melts at 464.   If you cast at 750 you can brew the coffee while you wait for the sprue to set up.   So, sure, it is better for rookies to start on the high side, but temp should relate to the alloy.   A fair rule of thumb is 100 above melt.

I apologise if I gave the impression that there is only one way ( my way ).   I don't claim that.   But the reverse side of the coin is the impression given by some that high temp works better.   As far as I can tell “good quality” seems to be anything from 5 to 15% rejects.   I can't afford such poor results.   I get no more than 2% with handgun bullets at the worst of times, and virtually zero with rifle.   Mostly that's at 620, and a production rate of 500 per hour for handgun bullets.   I could not possibly do that at 750.

But I agree that that's for the minority who want to do what I do, not for the rookies, and I will try to keep that in mind in future.

And yeah, I'd also like to know how Stimp is doing.

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

 

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CB posted this 15 December 2009

Naw Dicko (Richard) is a commercial caster from South Africa. Nothing at all like Perry. He is an alright fellow.

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JetMech posted this 15 December 2009

My apologies. I did offer constructive criticism in an earlier post but you seemed to have missed it. For the record, Lee instructions state to pre-heat the mold on the edge of the casting pot. We appreciate your in-depth analysis of problems but as Wildcat, Duane, Bill, Jeff, and many other experienced casters have noted over 30+ years of casting, our experience has run counter to yours in that some folks have consistantly gotten better results with higher temps. The point being that your experiences, while helpfull, are not necessarily gospel, and you should not present them as such.

And my apologies to Stimp for dragging this off-topic. It's been 5 months since we heard from you on this topic. Any news?

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Dicko posted this 15 December 2009

Dollar Bill wrote: Dicko is just another version of Perry, it seems.

He's a professional, don't you dare contradict him!

I like this one :” I will deal with Stimm's basic question later.” Not only is he a professional, he's also in charge!

 

I am not aware of having done anything but offer info that might help others or add to the store of info on this forum.   If you think it is not worth anything, Bill, you are free to think so.  But practical comment would be more helpful than sarcasm, don't you think ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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amb1935 posted this 14 December 2009

In my short experience, I have come to believe what Duane says to be true. I cast with a hot mold and a hot melt. Typically, I cast until the bullets comeout slightly frosty and then work my temp down a tad from there. I also cut the sprue only a few seconds after I pour. I watch for the sprue left in the holes in the sprue plate to harden and then immediately cut the sprue using only a glove-covered hand. It is true that occasionally I will get lead smear (2-4 bullets per casting session, but all I do is wait a second or two longer after the next pour to cut the sprue. Maybe I am missing something, because I've heard of lots of people rotating two or even three molds at a time, but I cast so fast that I think it would just be a waste. Fast casting at high temps has always given me good results. I also have found that out of a Lee 2 cavity .30 and .356 mold, I get about a 15% failure rate, whereas with their 6 cavity .356 I have, I get a failure rate somewhere between 5% and 10%. I like the 6 cavity mold MUCH better. Every bullet drops right out, not sticking whatsoever. Great mold.

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JetMech posted this 14 December 2009

Editted because I am in violation of the forum rules as well as discourtious to a guest. My sincere apologies.

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 14 December 2009

There are a lot of factors that may affect the performance of a mold.  I do not need to go into that here.  Many of the home casters are not in a controled temperature situation, the casting furnace temps change as the alloy is used.  Many claim to have success at casting at lower temps.  I do not have that success.  I do see most casting difficulties due to low mold temp, or low alloy temp.  In order for a newer caster to have success, I will nearly always encourage them to use a higher temp to get going, and then adjust downward as they develop their own casting pace.  They are not generally thinking production at this point, but making good quality bullets. 

The goal is different, so it would also be reasonable for the technique to be different.  Experience is a great teacher.  I would rather encourage someone to get the experience of casting good bullets over the experience of casting a lot of lessor quality bullets.  Again, I do not sell the product so my time is for my hobby.  Neither objective is superior to the other.  Just a different point of view. 

17 degrees outside so not a good day to be casting in the shed.  Duane

*please note that I may have been typing this when the previous post arrived on the forum.  I just want to see good information to help new casters be successful in working out their difficulties.  Duane

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Dicko posted this 14 December 2009

Stimp wrote: Hello,

I've been reloading and castin for a while now. I have a lee production pot bottom pour and lee molds. I had cast anything for ~1month now and got some new molds in to do some more casting. I also use wheel weight alloy for my lead (which i just rendered a new batch of ingot also).  Prior to my break from casting everything was dropping great, now  

Hi Stimp,

It has been a while since I said I would tackle this.   Although you have given all the info you could think of, nothing gives a clue to why you are getting what are unquestionably poor bullets.   I can only make suggestions that are good practice and hope that it solves the problem.  

Start with clean equipment.   You have done that.   You can't cast without suitable alloy.   It needs some antimony content, does not need tin.   Wheelweights should be OK.   The alloy must be clean.   That is the purpose of fluxing.   Run the temp up to 650 ( I'll return to that shortly ).    Stir vigorously.   Drop in a one inch long piece of candle and stir it in.   Wear a welding glove to protect your hand when it flames.   In a small melter it should flame when stirred in.   Let in burn in its own good time and stir occasionally.   If all goes well you should end up with a pile of fine dirt on top.   If it doesn't flame first time drop in a second piece of candle.   Skim off the dirt.

Temp is important.   It relates to antimony and tin content.  Wheelweight alloy should contain 4% antimony but so little tin that it can be ignored.   Melting temp should be about 565.   But the antimony content could be only 3%.   If so, melting temp is 580.   A suitable alloy temp is therefore 650.    A thermometer is essential.

There should be no problem with the moulds.   I have encountered moulds that wouldn't cast, but it is VERY rare !

I hestitate to accuse the bottom pour spout, but I have solid evidence of a particular problem with them.   They accumulate dirt.   That causes the smooth stream of alloy to become ragged and vortex-like.   That can cause casting fill out problems.   I ran into this problem several years ago with rifle bullets and spent two solid months figuring it out.   Ladle casting is generally more trouble free than bottom pour.   You might give it a try.   But be aware that you'll have to remove the bottom pour mechanism and block the spout to make enough room for an RCBS or Lyman dipper to work.   Even then it is tight in the Lee 10lb pot.   The tiny Lee “spoon” type dipper is useless, doesn't hold enough alloy.  

Keep a fast enough casting rythm to keep the moulds at operating temp.   The manual dexterity limit is about 15 seconds cycle time, but you will find that the sprue needs a few seconds to harden sufficiently to cut cleanly.   With a two cavity mould of 39 Spl calibre you can expect a cycle time of about 30 seconds.   But it is a matter of trial and error for each melt temp and bullet weight.   The heavy bullets run the mould hotter and cycle time is slower.   There are two distinct stages of sprue hardening.   If you observe closely you will see the liquid alloy set solid.  That vtakes anything from two to seven or eight seconds depending on alloy temp and antimony content.   You can expect nearer two seconds.

The second stage is when it frosts over like the icing on a cake.   When it happens it is practically instant.   At that point the alloy is still too soft to cut the sprue without smearing the mould top and the underside of the sprue cutter.   It needs a few seconds to harden up.   How long can only be established by trial and error.  If you leave it too long you risk letting the mould cool to below working temp.   Try five seconds.

The little Lee pot has no space on the rim for standing the mould to get it warm before casting.   That means you can expect to cast fifteen minutes before you get good bullets.   There is another helpful technique.   Start casting at 750 degrees and when the bullet look good reduce temp to 650.

I don't know what else to tell you.   There is obviously a problem but it is not clear what it is, so I can only suggest going to first principles.

Please keep us informed so that we can help further as you identify the problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dicko posted this 14 December 2009

Duane Mellenbruch wrote: From the Lee printed instruction sheet sent with their molds.

"If you're an experienced bullet caster, forget most of what was true when using the difficult to use cast iron blocks........... Because the aluminum mold blocks conduct heat fast, the metal must be extra hot for good bullets."

Whatever works for the individual seems the best course to follow.  Duane

Lee also claims that its moulds need no warm up and will cast perfect bullets from cold.   That's not true either and common sense says its not whether you have tried it or not.   It can't be true that widely disparate temperatures work equally well.   Unless of course you want to work so slowly its like watching grass grow.   I can cast good bullets at 750, but I'll be cycling the mould once a minute.   What's the point when I can get perfect fill out at 600 with a faster cycle time.   And what would be the point of using a multi cavity mould for high output then slow it down by casting hotter than you need to?

We have discussed the difference between commercial and home casting before, Duane, and today I posted an answer to your previous points eleswhere on this forum.   I said that the knowledge of commercial casters should be useful to home casters.   This matter of temperature and what works best is one of them.

 

 

 

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 28 November 2009

From the Lee printed instruction sheet sent with their molds.

"If you're an experienced bullet caster, forget most of what was true when using the difficult to use cast iron blocks........... Because the aluminum mold blocks conduct heat fast, the metal must be extra hot for good bullets."

Whatever works for the individual seems the best course to follow.  Duane Edit: ” Important"

3  Pre-heat your mold by laying it on top of your lead melter.

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Dicko posted this 28 November 2009

WILDCATT wrote: the lee molds HAVE to be hot.700/800 dg.you can turn the pot down till the frost goes.

it look like you have two things dirt and low temp.the lines show low temp.

alum molds are way different than iron molds. :coffee

Completely wrong.   I run all my Lee moulds, mostly six cavity at just over 600F because that's the lowest my pot (Magma) will go, and even that is way too hot for the big calibres which need forced air cooling to stop them from overheating.   800 is excessive and is even approaching danger level.    Lead does not fume below 900, but above that it gives off odourless and invisible fumes.   800 is getting close enough to be avoided.   But its way above proper casting temp anyway.  

Aluminium moulds are not noticeably different in behaviour from steel or cast iron moulds.   Somebody else mentioned 15% rejects as if that's good.   I get no more than 2%.   I will deal with Stimm's basic question later.

 

 

 

 

 

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WILDCATT posted this 24 November 2009

the lee molds HAVE to be hot.700/800 dg.you can turn the pot down till the frost goes.

it look like you have two things dirt and low temp.the lines show low temp.

alum molds are way different than iron molds. :coffee

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Clod Hopper posted this 21 November 2009

Stimp, You answered the question yourself. You said you just put a new batch of WW in. Did you melt the raw WW in this pot? If you did, dump out the melted WW, let the pot cool and clean that crap on the bottom and sides out. You will find crap in the spigot hole too. The Lee production pot has a rod which fits in the spigot hole. It has a place for a slotted screw driver. With rod in place turn the rod with a screw driver. I use another ladle pot to melt WW then flux and then skim, pouring them into ingots. There will be crude on the bottom of the ladle pot to clean Once your main pot is clean again melt the cleaned WW, flux with bullet lube, wax candles etc. Stir it deep and work that stuff loose so you can skim it off. Do this at a higher temperature. I run my Lee bottom spout almost at its highest setting. Don't put dirty stuff in a bottom pour pot. Some will float and some will sink.

Now that you think I am expert, I will tell I learned this by doing what you did at first. There is a learning curve. Good luck!

Dale M. Lock

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Seabee posted this 30 July 2009

Man i have been doing the flux thing wrong!!! Live and learn.

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454PB posted this 30 July 2009

With a clean mould and clean alloy, use a nail held in pliers to clear the pour valve. I use a dental pick, but a finishing nail will work. You need the alloy at full temperature, place the nail facing up towards the bottom of the valve, then open it and run the nail up into the valve about an inch. The melted alloy flowing out can be caught in an ingot mould, or simply allowed to cool and picked off the aluminum base.

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Stimp posted this 30 July 2009

Thanks for the help guys

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hunterspistol posted this 29 July 2009

     I used canning wax to flux.  Throw in a big chunk and when it melts stir it in.  Then, as stuff rises to the top, skim it. I use a long handled teaspoon with 1/8” holes drilled in it.  This may be ladle style but, you are getting stuff in the alloy that isn't floating out. The top should be skimmed until it's shiny bright(remember that old thing from the Lyman book?). That would get it pretty clean.  Was doesn't just burn off, the bullets will have enough flux that you can feel it when you handle them(or so it seems to me, I could be mistaken).  Stir the flux in deep and skim **that's my input!

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JSH posted this 29 July 2009

I pretty much run old school on a lot of my casting techniques. I use an old hunk of candle for fluxing my casting pot. Some guys say all it does is burn off. I have found it to work just fine. The thing is as soon as the alloy has come to a full liquid stage and not slushy, but to cool to cast with, that is when I flux. When you can take and stir the wax down into and through the melt. I dislike the “flux” that is a powder. i found it to spit and bubble, then leave a residue in my pot. Ended up worse than a dirty alloy in the long run. I did try the kitty litter thing on top of my melt. It worked fair and did hel keep the temp constant. It did not replace the velocity from a 1/2 to full pot, which is where I get my best bullets. I have a piece of aluminum that I use for a cover. Works good to hold the heat ina and a place to preheat or keep molds hot. The best mold release I have found bar none is, soot from an acetlyene torch. Doesn't reduce size either. A good thermometer is worth having. One that is consistant, but wrong will still work well. Just rememeber that it is not a correct temperature. I say this as I use a boiler stack thermometer. We reset it in the lab and I have a chart to go by. I use a digitital laser gun til it met an untimley death. jeff

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billwnr posted this 29 July 2009

I think the main issue(s) is dirt and alloy temps

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Stimp posted this 29 July 2009

Great I'll try it.. Do you think it could just be a dirt in the alloy or do you think there is other alloys in it that shouldn't be? And I just got a thermometer that goes up to 750 degrees so I should be set now. Thanks

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