44-40 and H4895 aka ADI AR2206(H)

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SkinnerD posted this 3 weeks ago

A curious thing it seems to me. H4895 was the powder Bruce Hogdon started out with. Apparently it has been used to load more than 100 different calibres ( I read as many as 120 somewhere). It is touted as a great reduced load powder, as a tolerant and forgiving powder across many applications. But nowhere is data to be found for the 44-40. I'm sure there is a good reason. Someone please enlighten me.

Cheers

John - New Zealand

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

From what I think, only my opinion, is that since the 44-40 is used in both revolver and rifle...most powder/cartridge manufacture don't waste their times trying to develop loads just for rifle use. More than likely it burns too slow for revolver use. It is my understanding that IMR4895 burns even slower than Reloder 7.

44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40 ..................................... 44-40 Videos - https://juxxi.com/channel/4440Cartridges

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Ed Harris posted this 3 weeks ago

My thought is likewise, but it might be fun to see how much you can cram into the case with a compression die and to pressure test it. With the heavier 230-240 grain bullets it might be useful in a rifle load.  Inquiring minds would like to know.  

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

So many things I would like to try but so little powder to find!!!   And so limited time...I gotta get this thing back to Larry!

44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40 ..................................... 44-40 Videos - https://juxxi.com/channel/4440Cartridges

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Ed,

This was with Reloder 7 and your 43-230G

Test #76, 14,737psi and maybe about 17,420cup. Right there at 44 W.H.V. pressures and velocities with a 240gr bullet.

76/26.5/Reloder 7/240 LRNFP/43-230G/1,506/14,737psi/17,420cup/4" Group @ 100 yards

Worthy of more testing to establish consistency

44-40 Website - https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/chasing-the-44-40 ..................................... 44-40 Videos - https://juxxi.com/channel/4440Cartridges

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SkinnerD posted this 3 weeks ago

So I got the good word back from ADI:

"Unfortunately, we have no test load data for .44-40 Winchester with AR2206H as it is considered too slow burning for optimum performance in this calibre."

So that would apply also to H4895 (and the old ADI AR2206).

Given the closeness of 44mag to the 44-40, its no surprise that these powders are not published for the 44mag either, which, if it had been the case, it would have given me the confidence to try.

Guess it's pretty much a dead end. Bugger!

John - New Zealand

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

The only "closeness" or resemblance between the two cartridges would be the use of 240gr bullets.

The mag can not perform optimal with slower burning rifle powders much slower, if at all, than the 2400/IMR4227 area burning powders...the 44-40 can at least perform. A reason is the weight of the bullets designed to be used by each. 200 vs 240. 

The 44 Magnum is listed under both rifle and revolver in the SAAMI specs. while the 44-40 is only listed under the rifle specs.

The 44 magnum is listed as 1,700fps in a rifle (1,170fps/15" vented to 1,600fps/15" non-vented for pistols) with a 240gr bullet. The best I can get out of a 240gr bullet with the 44-40 is 1,500fps from a 20" MGM barrel I use for testing.....and with Ed's 43-230G bullet loaded with Reloder 7.....and that is pushing the 44 W.H.V. max pressures of only 18,000psi as compared to the 44 Magnum's 36,000psi range.

Thus there really is no "closeness" of the two cartridges.

Here is some work that Larry Gibson did a while back.

Phase two test results:
Six loads were selected to be loaded in both 44-40 and 44 Magnum cases for chronographing via the Oehler M35P using the Ruger OM Vaquero 7 ½” barrel revolver with both its original 44-40 cylinder and with the FTBH 44 magnum cylinder. I’ll also list the velocities chronographed with selected loads in the 44-40 Chiappa M92 carbine with 20” barrel.

Load………………………44-40 fps…44 Mag fps…M92 fps

429-200-RF/6.0 gr BE……..947……… 1016………..1188

43-206H/6.0 gr BE………...903…………970………..1121

43-230G/6.0 gr BE………...881…………937

TL430-240-SWC/6.0 gr 700X..858……...937………..1061

429-200-RF/25 gr RL7……1053………..1130…… ..1428

43-230G/25 gr RL7………..1071……….1163

TL430-240-SWC/25 gr RL7..1157…........1204……….1488

All loads in 44-40 cases gave less fps than the same load in 44 magnum cases in the same revolver. The average difference is the 44-40 produced, on average, 93.4% as much velocity in the 44-40 cases as the same load did in the 44 Magnum cases. That does seem to suggest that what I had read years back about the 44-40 producing 95% +/- as much psi as with the same load in a 44 Magnum case is correct. So, is there a correlation we can use to determine safe pressure 44-40 loads with pressure testing being done in the 44 Magnum pressure test barrel? It appears so. Since all was equal in the revolver except the chambering and since velocity is directly related to pressure [all other equal as was in this test] I think we can safely conclude a load that produces so much pressure in the 44 Magnum will only produce 93 – 95% of that pressure in the 44-40 cartridge. 

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Eutectic posted this 3 weeks ago

I never saw an accuracy advantage to RL7 and 250 grain bullets in 44 mag revolvers. Unburned powder is a pain in a S&W not so much in a single action. Equal velocity is possible with a medium powder like Unique so I went no further. Now I have a Henry 44 carbine so another look at RL7 may be in the works. The accuracy advantage will have to be large to compensate for the powder consumption. 

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SkinnerD posted this 3 weeks ago

I don't dispute your observations. My use of "closeness" was a little loose perhaps when it comes to technical analysis of the two. Many would see the two calibres as close in the sense that 44mag and 357mag are not. At least I can use the same projectiles in both 44s if I wish. I have no desire to make my 44-40 emulate a 44mag. I don't have pistols in either, I do have both in 20" Rossi Pumas.

The 1998 Speer #13 has data for 44-40 Win Revolver as well as 44 Mag Revolver. Ditto for Rifle. #10 and #11 omit 44-40 entirely, rifle or revolver, perhaps reflecting the resurgence of 44-40 with CAS popularity and Speer suddenly making bullets for the calibre.

Hogdon currently list 44-40 revolver data online as does ADI.

Interesting therefore that 44-40 revolver is not covered under SAAMI specs. Is that because its seen as not having a sufficient potential difference between revolver and rifle?

Cheers

John - New Zealand

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Bryan Austin posted this 3 weeks ago

Interesting therefore that 44-40 revolver is not covered under SAAMI specs. Is that because its seen as not having a sufficient potential difference between revolver and rifle?

 

That is my thinking!

The 44 Magnum was manufactured for a strong revolver that had to be "toned down" for use in rifles. The 44-40 was the opposite, although the 44-40 was offered in a higher performance package for nearly 40 years, prior to the "Magnum" craze.

 

Magnum is a Latin word meaning Great

 

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