Lee Tumble Lube Failure?

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Last Post 16 December 2010

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kokojoe posted this 22 June 2009

Hi All,

I need some feedback on this.

I've used the Lee TL356-124-2R molds for my 9MM rounds. I've done everything I could think of and tried almost every suggestion, but still get signficant barrel leading on about 1/3 of the muzzle end. One of the fine members here sent me some conventionally-lubed cast bullets at about 12.5 BHN and, after 100 rounds, I had no perceptable leading. It was like a miracle!! So, I've done alot - here's a list:

<>Always tumble lubed. Started with strait - then cut 20% +/- with mineral spirits. Now back to strait. Lubed before sizing only - and before and after.<>Used Lee sizers at .357 & .358. Also used unsized considerably.<>Used Lee Factory Crimp Die and without.<>Varied loads from starting loads to near maximum.<>Varied COL from minimum to maximum. <>Tried Win 231 & WSF.<>Used BHN of 14 on up to 18+.<>Always started with a clean, fresh barrel.<>Usually shoot 50 to 150 rounds.<>End up cleaning with the brush & copper scrubber trick I read about - it's the only way to make this a manageable task after each session.<>I water quench.<>I use the Lee tester for BHN. My reading was cooberated with another member. My alloy is WW and plumbing pipe lead to drop the BHN. To insure I had tin I even had some sticks of body lead (I'm guessing it was 30/70 or something like that) that I'd add in - still got the leading.

Also, FYI, my tumble lubed bullets for my 45 ACP also are leading.

So, I guess my question is - is this just me?? or are there others who have not been able to not have this leading issue?

I am going to take one more stab at it - I'm guessing someone would suggest an even lower BHN and air cooled only. So, I'm going to mix up a batch with a target of 12.5 BHN (same as friend's conventionally lubed miracle bullets) - with the tin added to be sure - then air cool them - tumble lube them and load them unsized. But, in the mean time - any feed back would be appreciated.

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hunterspistol posted this 22 June 2009

It isn't just you. Hang with me on this description and I'll get to the 9mm. I started out working up loads for the 7mmTCU in a Contender using an RCBS 145 grain bullet. Special order took a while and the bullet only went 100 meters on paper. In the meantime, I ordered some Carnuba Red for higher velocity.

I went to pouring the Lyman Devastator for the 9mm and had a 10” barrel to work up loads with. Sized to .355, lubed with Carnuba Red. After working the powder charge up for 50 meters, the barrel had a lot of lube left in it. Had to get acetone to clean it out. Same as yourself, ended up with the bronze bore brush eventually.

Back to the 7mmTCU, ordered a 135 grain Lyman mold that the guys online said would work. It did, I unofficially slugged the barrel by firing both gas checked bullets with 1/2 grain powder(SR4759). The 145 stopped at the first layer of sweatshirt material that was in the box on the ground. The 135 went through and kept going! I had to drop that 1/2 grain way down to recover the bullet. All I can conclude is the Lyman fit better with a longer bearing surface. I loaded up the powder test for the 135 Lyman, it went on paper at 200 meters, will reach 250. This is with Carnuba Red. The barrel cleaned up easily, nowhere near the fouling of the 9mm. I guess it worked better at higher velocity than at the speed of the 9mm.

I'm beginning to think about going back to an alox mix for the 9mm, I had no trouble before with it but, I can't be to sure that it isn't the bullet fit. I have a 124 grain target roundnose that I'm going to switch to. I want to see if the results change with a better setup. Chances are it may be better or worse but,who knows which?

I've had to wipe the Carnuba Red from the base and leave only the lube groove filled to see if that will help. It's a good lube as far as handling goes, isn't sticky and stays put, but, once fired down the barrel, it seems to matter how much of it there is, with that particular bullet anyway. I've never had alox lubes do this at any time.

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runfiverun posted this 22 June 2009

are you obly putting one thin coat on? or two.

you can thin out the alox with mineral spirits for the first coat about 50%

let it dry for a day or so then do a second coat and let dry.

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chboats posted this 22 June 2009

How hot are you loading them? I shot about 40,000 rounds of 45ACP using 4gr Win 231 under a 200gr bullet cast from scrap lead with just enough tin to make it cast. I used 50/50 beeswax/alox and a couple of other home made lubes. All were sized to .451. They were used for targets only and kept around 700fps (more comfortable to shoot). I would shoot as many as 300 in a day. The only cleaning I ever had to do was a wet swab. I don't know how hard the bullets were. The scrap was made up of sheet lead, range lead, wheel weights and anything else I could find.

The only time I had a leading problem was when I loaded the same bullet to the highest velocity I could get. I don't remember what powder I used but It was a MAX load. The way I got the lead out of the barrel was fire a clip of jacketed ball loads and went back to the target loads with no problems. I'm not sure this is safe but I didn't blow up the gun.

I guess what I am saying is if you are using MAX loads and don't need them that hot, back off the powder a little and they may even be more accurate.

Good luck

Carl

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tturner53 posted this 23 June 2009

Maybe you could trade some alloy with your friend, he casts his conventional bullet with your alloy, and you cast some of your TLs with his alloy. That oughta tell you if it's the bullet or the alloy causing the leading. And it'd tell you what a good friend you have! HTH Edit; If you figure it out let us know, I'm starting a 9mm and .45 TL project myself using old Lee Loaders. Tried cutting the LLA with mineral spirits for the first time today, a little ms goes a long way.

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kokojoe posted this 23 June 2009

Yes, I have some of his unlubed bullets - so I'm going to put the Lee Liquid on today and maybe get a chance to try them tomorrow. I will let you know.

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kokojoe posted this 23 June 2009

runfiverun wrote: are you obly putting one thin coat on? or two.

you can thin out the alox with mineral spirits for the first coat about 50%

let it dry for a day or so then do a second coat and let dry.

or do the second coat with johnsons paste wax and let sit till dry or mix the wax with bees wax at a ratio of 3 jpw to 1 beeswax by melting the b-wax and stirring in the jpw then use about a quarter of what you think you need. I've tried both ways. And I've also tried thinning with the mineral spirits. I've never tried the paste wax - I might try that.

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kokojoe posted this 23 June 2009

chboats wrote: How hot are you loading them? I shot about 40,000 rounds of 45ACP using 4gr Win 231 under a 200gr bullet cast from scrap lead with just enough tin to make it cast. I used 50/50 beeswax/alox and a couple of other home made lubes. All were sized to .451. They were used for targets only and kept around 700fps (more comfortable to shoot). I would shoot as many as 300 in a day. The only cleaning I ever had to do was a wet swab. I don't know how hard the bullets were. The scrap was made up of sheet lead, range lead, wheel weights and anything else I could find.

I guess what I am saying is if you are using MAX loads and don't need them that hot, back off the powder a little and they may even be more accurate.

Good luck

Carl

With the Lee liquid I've tried everything from the starting loads to near max. Still get the leading throughout the range. Currently I'm right at mid-range loads.

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Ed Harris posted this 23 June 2009

Stick to alloy no harder than 13 BHN and use the lightest load which cycles the action reliably. I think you are casting too hard and trying to load to hot. Try about 3.5 of Bullseye or 4.2 of 231. Keep velocity subsonic. Your hard quenched bullets aren't sealing the bore.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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kokojoe posted this 23 June 2009

OK - BASELINE AND UPDATE BELOW:

Just for the baseline: My friend's 120 grain TC lubed with his homemade beeswax lube at 12.5 BHN and sized to .357. I loaded this with 4.3 WSF - this bullet set to 1.110 COL. Shot 100 rounds with no perceptible barrel leading. I use Ed's Red made up and this with patches cleaned the barrel. No scrubbing. I cleaned a couple minor spots with the brush that could have been left over. THIS IS THE DESIRED RESULT!!

Today:

1: Used my Lee TL356-124-2R - a Lee tumble lube mold @ 124 grains with round nose - unsized. BHN 16+ and used Lee liquid tumble lube. Loaded 50 rounds with 4.3 WSF at 1.120 COL (same setting as above on bullet seating die so I don't have to change and it seats them as 1.120 with RN and 1.110 with TC). Ended up with my typical significant leading on 1/3 of muzzle end. Took brush with copper pad threads to get it cleaned up again.

2: Same bullet as #1 above but loaded to 3.9 with WSF (.1 below published starting load). 50 rounds resulted in about 1/3 of the leading as #1 above - but still needed brush and signficant cleaning.

I have the TC bullets from friend tumble lubed and just cast a batch of TL bullets to the lower 12.5 BHN and air cooled them. So, these two scanarios will be ready to shoot in the next couple days. I'll report back on them.

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runfiverun posted this 23 June 2009

change your lube or do the second coat. if his lube worked you can melt the 50-50 down and use it as a tumble lube too just use a cup and swirl them around till the grooves start to fill up.

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hunterspistol posted this 23 June 2009

Nobody mentioned it so, here goes. Have you tried the mineral spirits to clean the lead out? Mineral Spirits paint thinner from the lumber yard works wonderfully for removing lead.

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kokojoe posted this 24 June 2009

ROUND #2 UPDATE

Ok, tried two things.

1: Used my friend's TC 120 grain with Liquid Tumble Lube at starting load of 4.0 WSF. This is the same bullet that I shot at 4.3 grains with his lube and no leading. With the tumble lube at 4.0 WSF, there was leading in about 20% of the muzzle end. Similar to my TL bullets that were tumble lubed and shot at 4.0 WSF.

2: Used my carefully alloyed & cast TL bullet 124 grain. Loaded the same as #1 above at 4.0 WSF. Cast at 12.5 BHN and air cooled. Then tumble lubed. Still had leading in that last 20% + of the barrel. About the same as #1.

Feeding with both of the above loads was poor. My guns seem to need the mid-range load in order to feed well. At 4.2-4.3 I've not experienced problems in feeding.

So, at this point I have established that the conventional soft lube did not have lead fouling at 4.3 WSF. I used the same bullet with tumble lube and a lower charge and got fouling. I guess the only remaining thing to put it all on an even playing field is to try the tumble lubed bullet with the same 4.3 of WSF and see if there is still leading. I understand that sometimes the starting load may not be enough to bump the bullet to seal well. If, in fact, there is still leading, then I think I've eliminated all possibilities except the Lee Tumble Lube?

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Duane Mellenbruch posted this 24 June 2009

I was discussing this thread with another shooter this morning. I was asking him what his proceedure was for cleaning and storing his guns when shooting cast. He cleans and then runs a damp patch through the barrel and leaves it damp when in storage. He does not wipe out the bore but does discard the first shot into the berm. He has no leading.

It is my understanding that you store your firearm with a dry bore and am wondering if others do this and if they have leading beginning with the first shot. That appears to be about the only thing that is done differently and it would surprise me if this was a factor. Duane

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tturner53 posted this 24 June 2009

It sounds like the leading is mostly occuring in the last 1/3 of the barrel, near the muzzle. Remove that portion of the barrel(cut it off) and your leading problem should be solved. HTH:shock::}

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hunterspistol posted this 24 June 2009

Have no idea what tturner is drinkin'! As Duane mentioned, I usually leave a light film of oil in the barrel after cleaning, does make some difference.

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tturner53 posted this 24 June 2009

One of the gentlemen here sent me a bottle of Makers Mark to have the wax seal analised.

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kokojoe posted this 25 June 2009

With any luck, I'll get out this AM with a few more tests and report back. Thanks for the continued feedback.

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tturner53 posted this 25 June 2009

KK, just kidding about cutting off the end of your barrel! I'm working through a devilish leading problem myself, a Ruger SBH .44 with throat issues. After all the help I got here I hate to say the problem may have been poor cleaning technique. I've found out you really can't see lead deposits that well when the bore is wet from whatever. Get it dry and you can really see it, mine looked pretty bad. Going to the range today to take another shot at a postal match, Hunter Pistol. Anybody shoot jacketed in a revolver to remove stubborn lead?

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canalupo posted this 25 June 2009

I don't shoot jacketed out of my 9mm to clean lead but I frequently switch between hardball and cast. One reason is to get new once fired brass. In NE pa. you can still get Winchester white box for around $25 for 100rnds. The other reason is I shoot whaterver I could get my grimey mitts on. It does seem to keep barrel cleaner with less leading. maybe the copper leaves a residue that slows down leading. Some day I will figure it out.

Bob D

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kokojoe posted this 25 June 2009

TODAY'S UPDATE

Got out again today. Can't say I resolved anything but have more information for input.

Before that, just a couple things. tturner made a good point, when the barrel is wet, the leading can not really be spotted because the cleaner is running like excess paint in the barrel. My procedure to check for leading and fouling is this: first, I run a wet patch through about 3 or 4 times. Then a dry patch one or two times. This cleans out the powder & debris. Then I use those magnifying visor glasses to look at the barrel, carefully rolling in indirect outdoor light to get a really good look. That's where I find the streaks of leading. Someone proposed it might be a build up of excess Lee Liquid lube? I suppose it could be, but don't think so. It's pretty stubborn stuff. I used Ed's Red heavily, then use the bronze brush wrapped in the copper kithchen scrubbers. Then, there still may be a little left. I try to get it all off each time to have a fair base for comparison. I have a tiny bronze brush that I may use for one or two final spots. But, I won't rule out a build-up and will try to be more careful to see if I can actually get a scraping or sample that I can examine to be absolutely certain that it is lead.

I used Lee tumble lube only on both my friend's TC 120 grain and my TL RN 124 grain that both test out about 12.5 BHN. 4.3 WSF. Both fed well. If you remember, at the starting load of 4.0, both had terrible feeding in both guns I used. I shot 48 of the TC and 36 of the TL. Both had moderate leading that required a good scrub to get out. Concentrated in the last 1/4 or so of the barrel.

Then, I re-shot my standard 16+BHN tumble lubed only at the same charge. 34 rounds resulted in leading maybe 50% worse than above and moderate leading near the breech end.

I did try shooting the above with a wet bore. With 16 rounds there still was moderate leading; although not as bad as above.

So, the original baseline of the TC with the conventional lithi-bee lube at the 4.3 WSF is superior to anything with the Lee tumble lube so far.

Now, I'm going to load some more of those and confirm this one more time. Then I'll try the tumble lubed bullets and see if there is some way I can verify that it is leading and not a build up of lube. Again, I'd be suprised if it was lube because Ed's Red will take the lube right off a bullet with no scrubbing effort at all.

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giorgio de galleani posted this 25 June 2009

I believe that leading in the front third of the barrel is too much pressure and or velocity.more than a lube problem in a pistol.

Have you clocked your loads with a chronograph?

Have you tried a much milder load? Have you tried Bullseye or 231W?

Incidentally,what is your pistol? and what about rifling twist.

I have never had loading in decent loads with liquid alox and Xlox,your story grieves me,

Have you tried youe 9 mm bullets ,unsized in a good 38 sp revolver?

While the 9luger is a difficult load ,it is usually impossible to lead a normal 38sp load.

Are you sure you are not making some other big mistake in the loading operation.?

Your misterious leading is a interesting problem.

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RogerWatsonfromIdaho posted this 25 June 2009

kokojoe,

For the start of cleaning the bore, I use a tight fitting patch on a push tip with my powder cleaning solvent (WD-40). I push the patch thru the bore one time and look at the patch for lead. This tells me if there is leading in the bore. Then I clean the bore of powder fouling as you do. I also shine a light down the bore and look for leading. Mine is usually in the throat. The chore boy around a brass brush will remove it.

I find your problem very interesting as I am also getting leading on my 9mm Luger with everything I try. I do not use Lee tumble lub. I am able to get acceptable leading which is the batches clean out the leading without using the chore boy. I had no problem getting the .45 acp to shoot without any leading on the cleaning patch. I will try softer bullets in the 9mm.

Roger

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kokojoe posted this 25 June 2009

giorgio de galleani wrote: I believe that leading in the front third of the barrel is too much pressure and or velocity.more than a lube problem in a pistol.

Have you clocked your loads with a chronograph?

Have you tried a much milder load? Have you tried Bullseye or 231W?

Incidentally,what is your pistol? and what about rifling twist.

I have never had loading in decent loads with liquid alox and Xlox,your story grieves me,

Have you tried youe 9 mm bullets ,unsized in a good 38 sp revolver?

While the 9luger is a difficult load ,it is usually impossible to lead a normal 38sp load.

Are you sure you are not making some other big mistake in the loading operation.?

Your misterious leading is a interesting problem. The leading is near the muzzle 1/3 end.

I've tried all loads even .1 below starting loads. Those loads give me fits in the operation and still result in leading - but less.

I used both a SW Model 669 and and SW 9VE. I test the leading issue between them and it seems to affect both similarly.

I've used WIN 231 as well. Suggestions on this forum were that WSF helped someone else stop leading - so I've been working with that. But either one seems to end up the same.

WIN 115 grain white box ammo is 1,132 average from my 669. Remington 115 HP is 1,125. 4.0 WSF is 907-936; 4.1 WSF is 940-950; 4.2 WSF is in the 950's; 4.3 WSF is right at about 1,000. Have not chronoed others yet or the WIN 231.

I don't think I'm missing anything major. I've read dozens of books, hundreds of postings, etc. etc. I am, however, new to this - started just a few months ago.

I have shot the bullets out of a Ruger GP 100 with a 6” barrel. At the time, I was not focusing on the leading issue. I was just happy the darned things went out the end of the barrel!! I'll have to report back on that. I do think it resulted in some leading, but far less than the 9mm.

Just a reminder from my earlier posts, the bullets with conventional lube did not result in leading with the 4.3 WSF load. I'm going to load those again just to be sure I did not miss anything or was not too optimistic when I was cleaning and inspecting!!

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Recluse posted this 26 June 2009

Of everything I cast and load for, 9mm has always been the most challenging. So much so, that I continuously think seriously about just buying jacketed round nose bullets in massive bulk to load. I have an outstanding load for j-bullets.

But cast? Plenty of challenges.

I have that Lee TL124RN boolit mould as well. And, I'm a huge fan of tumble-lubing--but with the mix and technique I've developed for my loads. Nothing earth-shattering or proprietary about it:

45%LLA/45%JPW/10%Odorless Mineral Spirits. Tumble lube cast boolits very lightly, let dry overnight. Run through appropriate Lee push-through sizer, then tumble-lube sized boolits lightly again, let dry, put up (or load). I like to lube and size my boolits within 24 - 72 hours of having cast them.

I have a couple of other 9mm boolit moulds as well, and all perform about the same.

What I've found is that if I increase BHN in the 9mm, I absolutely better increase load/pressure or I'm going to get flyers and leading. It's that simple. I'm shooting out of Berettas, Taurus, Sig and an FN Hi-Power. Doesn't matter which gun--if my boolits are too hard and my charge too weak, my accuracy is non-existent and my leading is more than evident.

I water drop my WW TL124RN boolits. BHN is around 11/12. But I load them above midrange. This gives me almost acceptable accuracy, but zero leading. Harder I push them, the better my accuracy gets--especially in the Hi-Power.

Presently, I'm trying something somewhat different. I'm making some “super-alloy” with a high degree of linotype and antimony in it, sufficent tin for complete and total fillout, and then will probably heat-treat them, then lube/size/lube/load.

But the load is going to be what I do my upper/max velocity jacketed loads with. Want to see if I can duplicate the accuracy and performance I get with the FMJ bullets with very hard cast boolits.

Not sure what I'll actually accomplish, but I'm at the point now in my shooting/reloading/casting life that I enjoy the journey as much--if not MORE--than I do the destination.

Your problem is a mystery, though. Again, for me and my 9mm pistols, the harder the lead, the harder I need to push it out of the barrel.

Maybe the LLA is your problem, but it's never been a problem for me in any handgun caliber, ever.

:coffee:

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kokojoe posted this 26 June 2009

Recluse wrote: Of everything I cast and load for, 9mm has always been the most challenging. So much so, that I continuously think seriously about just buying jacketed round nose bullets in massive bulk to load. I have an outstanding load for j-bullets.

But cast? Plenty of challenges.

I have that Lee TL124RN boolit mould as well. And, I'm a huge fan of tumble-lubing--but with the mix and technique I've developed for my loads. Nothing earth-shattering or proprietary about it:

I have a couple of other 9mm boolit moulds as well, and all perform about the same.

But the load is going to be what I do my upper/max velocity jacketed loads with. Want to see if I can duplicate the accuracy and performance I get with the FMJ bullets with very hard cast boolits.

Not sure what I'll actually accomplish, but I'm at the point now in my shooting/reloading/casting life that I enjoy the journey as much--if not MORE--than I do the destination.

Your problem is a mystery, though. Again, for me and my 9mm pistols, the harder the lead, the harder I need to push it out of the barrel.

Maybe the LLA is your problem, but it's never been a problem for me in any handgun caliber, ever.

:coffee: Recluse,that gives me a couple other things to test. What powder are you using when you push them and don't get the leading? Does that seem to matter?

I'll try your TL mixture. Did that make a difference over the strait Lee product?

Before I realized the leading was a problem, I was just concentrating on the accuracy of the loads. With the WIN 231 for me, it seemed I had to push right at Max published load to get the best performance. However, that was when I may have been cast too strong a bullet.

So, I, too, will continue on that journey.

Thanks

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JetMech posted this 26 June 2009

I think the key is your alloy hardness. When I used to cast everything in Lyman #2, I had some type of leading problems in my 357, 45 and 41. Once I cut it with straight lead so the alloy was around 10-12BHN, problems went away.

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Ed Harris posted this 26 June 2009

I agree with Dolar Bill. Your alloy is too hard.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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kokojoe posted this 26 June 2009

I am starting to think it is an alloy hardness problem as well - although I still think that and the lube may both have some factor in this. And, of course, I have not ruled out my own casting techniques as possible also. It does puzzle me because of my reading in the Lee Book. The Hogdon data for a 124 grain lead bullet has pressure at 22,200 PSI for 4.0 WSF and 27,300 PSI @ 4.7 WSF. I'm pretty much in the middle. Lee's book on page 134 indicates that for 17.2 BHN the Max PSI should be 22,002. This is based on his theory that this is about 10% below the “ultimate compressive strength” of the material and allows the bullet to deform and seal without ovedoing it. However, maybe his research along these lines are based more on rifle loads? In any case, the 12.5 BHN Duane sent me would indicate a max pressure of 16,000 PSI on the same chart. I would be substantially over that max yet with his lube I had no leading issues and they shot well.

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JetMech posted this 26 June 2009

I'm not a metalurgist, but I believe the ultimate compressive strength is not based just on hardness, but on the alloy also. You can obtain a BHN of, say 15, with several different alloys and/or method of hardening, or even the rate of cooling.

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Recluse posted this 27 June 2009

kokojoe wrote:Recluse,that gives me a couple other things to test. What powder are you using when you push them and don't get the leading? Does that seem to matter?

I'll try your TL mixture. Did that make a difference over the strait Lee product?

So, I, too, will continue on that journey.

Thanks

I use a lot of AA#5 for my 9mm loads. When loaded jacketed, it gives me accuracy that far surpasses even the old factory ammo the agency used to issue (and of which, I have scores of boxes of in my ammo cabinets).

Used to be leary of loading 9mm lead very hot, but like you, I was diligently looking at the pressures and statistics and projections and “what should happen when you do 'x' versus 'y' . . . and I finally just tossed all that out the window.

Started loading my 9mm cast with softer boolits and harder charges, and overnight everything began improving.

I know a guy who is retired SAS and an absolute afficiendo of the Browning FN Hi-Power. He is an ardent handloader and also dabbles in casting. He told me that the 9mm isn't made to fly slow. Needs a good, high velocity to achieve consistent accuracy.

What I look for is the ideal combination to achieve ideal obturation. If I'm going to load midrange or lower velocity 9mm, then I definitely have to cast softer boolits so that obturation occurs. Likewise, with this “super alloy” I'm experimenting with, I have to push it like the dickens to get proper obturation.

On those occasions in which I've found the magic, I've gotten good accuracy and a clean bore. When I don't find the mojo, I end up in situations similar to yours.

Another thing I learned very early on in reloading is what might've worked for Mr. Lee doesn't always work for Mr. Recluse--even if we're shooting the same gun with the same charge. Same goes for what works for Mr. Hornady or Mr. Nosler or Mr. Lyman or Mr. Speer doesn't always work for me.

The books are a safe guide and appropriate place to begin the load journey. I learned a long time ago to never consider them as the final destination.

As far as my LLA/JPW mix, again, I like the LLA but I feel as it is and as described in how to use by Mr. Lee, it's too heavy of a coat.

That's why early on, I cut it by at least 50% with mineral spirits. Then I began cutting it with Johnsons Paste Wax, and lubing/sizing/lubing/loading, and that's when things REALLY picked up for the better and I've never looked back.

I improved accuracy and consistency, eliminated virtually all leading, and kept my bore very clean.

That's one of my Holy Trifectas. :)

:coffee:

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kokojoe posted this 28 June 2009

Dollar Bill wrote: I'm not a metalurgist, but I believe the ultimate compressive strength is not based just on hardness, but on the alloy also. You can obtain a BHN of, say 15, with several different alloys and/or method of hardening, or even the rate of cooling. Interesting point on that. Thanks. I've not encountered that possibility in my reading. The Lee book is silent on that and seems to imply that BHN is the deciding factor in the strength. I can see how Recluse said he finally tossed it all out the window!!

I can see how this stuff is all important to know and understand but I am starting to see that there is no substitute for actual experience and trial and error. What it does seem to provide, however, is a framework from which to experiment and communicate and, perhaps, to understand how others' ideas and experiences may or may not apply.

I shot another 32 rounds of Duane's 12.5 BHN 120 grain TC rounds with his lube and had another barrel as clean as could be.

I'm going to load some rounds that I've put an extra heavy dose of Lee tumble lube on and see if that makes a difference.

When I did get leading from some of my older loads, I managed to brush the barrel onto some white paper just to make sure it was lead and not lube fouling the barrel. There were enough silver specs & slivers to make me pretty sure that what I'm seeing is lead fouling.

Also, I cast some very soft TL bullets and put heavy tumble lube on them to try.

I will also bump up some rounds to 4.5WSF and 4.7WSF to see if that affects the older 16 BHN TL castings that I have.

Recluse' comments are interesting about cutting the tumble lube so much. I think I've got it too light and not enough and that's part of my leading near muzzle end - that I run out of lube. Could too much lube also cause this symptom?

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hunterspistol posted this 28 June 2009

That is interesting, I've just been running wheelweight. The BHN is only about 9 at most. I haven't really hit it with any linotype to see what happens next. The statement that BHN is not the criterion for compressive strength brings me back to a Fouling Shot article on how rifling etched the cast bullet when accelerated beyond the point of accuracy. Seems at a certain point the rifling is cutting the side of the bullet from pressure. I've just begun to experiment on the 9mm, and I haven't tried to make it real accurate to 100 meters, just 50, and then it's only mediocre, at the present stage.

The article I'm referring to is from Journal #197(197-9) Technical Ramblings:Base Upset by Ken Mollohan, Cincinnati, Ohio. Although about base upset and arburation are the main focus, he took this to a higher velocity conclusion and recovered the bullets to exactly examine the effects. The engraving of the rifling began to etch one side of the bullet opposite of the side rotating it, as powder loads increased, so did the engraving and leading. Most of the loads showed no sign of leading until increased to exaggerate effect. The first sign of leading was a flash ring at the muzzle, then more, due to the engraving effect. You'd have to read this wonderful article.

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kokojoe posted this 01 July 2009

TODAY'S UPDATE:

To start with, I want to thank Duane for all his help. He has contributed a great deal to this thread and provided me with bullets, etc. to get this testing done.

Well, today's tests were somewhat inconclusive. One of the problems is that gauging lead fouling is somewhat subjective and I have to do it in the field between cleanings and then kind of remember what barrel looked like relative to the other to write it down.

One thing that is stable and I can say with certainty: the 120 grain TC bullets sized to .356 and lubed by Duane with a beeswax lube (?) pretty much have no detectable leading. This is with 4.3 WSF.

I was shooting 30-50 rounds and inspecting the barrel. But, that was slow and very time and materials consuming. So, I'm trying to look at this with 20 rounds. That was hard - I don't think the fouling built up to distinguish it much from load to load. So, I'm going to go with 32 rounds in the future.

Anyhow, here are my field procedures. Each load it labeled on a 3 x 5 card in a baggie with the 20 rounds or so. First, I shot Duane's rounds as a base. I then take wet patches through the barrel six times; then a dry patch 4 times and inspect the barrel. This gets the powder and loose crud out. Then I try to rank barrel to barrel as they are relative to each other. Then, any remaining leading, I use a dry brass brush 20-30 times back & forth until I knock the remaining lead out. Then I dry patch through to get the crud out and wet patch a couple times and then dry patches. Then I'm ready for another batch.

So far, my testing has included (1) LLA strait with one application; (2) LLA very heavy strait on as a second coat to where, instead of “light honey” it looks like heavy shellac; (3) 50% thinned with mineral spirits and applied in two light coats. This was tried on both my TL bullets and Duane's unlubed bullets. And, I used WSF powder in charges of 4.3, 4.5, and the maximum at 4.7. Neither of my guns work consistenly at the starting load of 4.0 - so that was ruled out. I also cast bullets at about 12.5 BHN and 16+ BHN.

And, to review, my current leading problem is mostly at the muzzle end - indicating the bullet running out of lube.

So, Duane's lubed & sized bullet worked fine. I used LLA on his unlubed bullets and get moderate leading with various applications and loads.

My TL bullets with LLA consistenly leaded with a mix of variables. The only thing that seemed to help somewhat was the TL bullet with VERY HEAVY application of LLA and shot at the moderate 4.3 WSF. With my 20 round experiment, it was not as good as Duane's but definately seemed better than any others.

There was some thought and comments that the softer bullets may improve things as they would seal the bore better. In this case, I did not see that happen - which suprised me. I do still think, however, that my 16+ BHN has need unnecessarily strong - I'm going to target future casts in the 12-14 range. In these tests, however, it actually seemed that the higher charges may have added to the leading.

At this point, I have some of my TL bullets loaded that Duane ran through his lube sizer - so that's really my last real test at this point. We'll see if some other lube method on the TL bullets makes a difference.

Duane indicates, and I'm kind of getting the feeling that he's right on this, that my barrel may be getting conditioned or something and that may make things better also. So, I'll report back after I shoot those TL bullets with LLA and conventional lube on them. In the meantime, I'll going to load a batch of Duane's bullets and just shoot for awhile.

Maybe I should invent some camera attachement (not that I'm capable!) so that we could post photos of the barrels - it would probably be alot easier for you to see what was going on with it. Also, it would be nice if there was some more objective way to identify the leading issue.

So, for some reason, the LLA just does not seem to be working for me at this point. Maybe with some more barrel conditioning and revisiting it in the future this will change.

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canalupo posted this 01 July 2009

kokojoe

I am not completely sure but is the S&W you are loading for prone to the Glock/springfield/S&W bulge? The leading may be caused by something other than powder or bullets. It is my understanding that when the bulge on a reload hits the solid side of the chamber it could force the bullet out of alignment with throat and disturb taper crimp on some loads. The “bounce” down the barrel may cause the leading and not the lube.

At least it may be worth checking.

Bob D

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kokojoe posted this 06 July 2009

Good news update.

Ok, I switched over to some .38 Specials because I was out. So, I got a batch of WW/Plumbing lead to under 10 BHN and used the LLA. After 40 rounds at 3.6 WIN 231 out of my 6” GP 100 - I had a pretty clean barrel. Some powder residue but no signs of leading. The last batch I had were running 14+ BHN and there was some leading to contend with. Two other things were different as well. One is that I did not size these TL358-158-SWC Lee bullets. They are as cast. Also, I switched to the Lee 4 die pistol set primarily to get the Factory Crimp Die.

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LouisianaMan posted this 31 July 2009

kokojoe, I read your detailed reports with great interest last night! I've been fretting over troubles with several bullets & LLA that are leading, and perhaps your experience will show me the way. I'm trying to secure some lead to alloy with my WW to see if the softer alloy will fix my problems. Re. sizing, doesn't the Lee FCD size the bullet if you use it for crimping?

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kidwalli posted this 21 September 2010

After throwing several pounds of lead downrange and meeting with leading and horrible inaccuracy problems I walked away from it for a while. Then I started all over again. The 2 smartest things I did were 1. I re-read Cast Bullets For Beginner & Expert” by Joe Brennan and 2."Unique Lives up to Its Name” by C.E.Harris as published in “Cast Bullets Supplement No.1” from the NRA. From this I concluded a few things: Soft is good, tight is good and lower velocity is REALLY GOOD. I don't size bullets any more and use Lee Liquid Alox as lube. I merely cast some bullets and as soon as they can be comfortably handled I throw them in a tin can and roll them around with some Alox. I leave them to dry over night and load. No gas checks either. I don't know about where you live but here gas checks are $70 a thousand plus tax. I am now getting most pleasing accuracy out of my Model 94 Angle Eject in 307. Not a tack driver but hitting a deer's vitals is a dead cert now. IMR SR 4759 powder. Magic. Fun. Happy. Thanks Mr. Harris and Mr.Brennan.

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CB posted this 03 October 2010

Seems like everyone has tried to cover all avenues, but you might give this a try.I use alox almost exclusively , but I make a mix of it . I use 45% alox 45% Johnsons paste wax 10% Mineral spirits. Melt the wax and add the alox and mineral spirits , stir good and put in squirt bottles. Warm it up good before use and shake to ensure good mix. Have found straight alox is too thick and the mix coats better and dries in about 2 hours. Works for me but your millage may vary

beekeeper

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noylj posted this 16 December 2010

I would suggest a light coat of warm LLA applied to some warm (not HOT) bullets, dry overnight, then apply a second light coat. My introduction to tumble lubing was after a move I found about 500 as-cast Lee 358-105-SWC bullets I had cast several years ago. I ordered some LLA and Rooster Jacket to try. I tumble lubed about 100 bullets in each and let dry over night. I had used too much LLA as they were a warm-brown color and were slightly tacky (I don't mind tacky). The Rooster Jacket bullets were clear and non-tacky. Went to the range. Both lubes kept leading to a minimum in both 9x19 and .38Super. However, the LLA loads had group sizes about 50% smaller than the Rooster Jacket loads. Now, years later, I am thinking about applying my normal very thin coat of LLA, drying over night, and them applying a coat of Rooster Jacket. Using 0.357+ bullets and just a light coat of LLA, I have almost no leading in my barrels after 500 rounds. However, I have a Browning HP that has a barrel of 0.3595 and it doesn't shoot lead bullets well because I don't have a source for 0.360+ bullets. It doesn't lead, though, so the LLA is working for it also--it just can't shoot an undersized lead bullet.