Help Needed: 38 Ballard Extra Long

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  • Last Post 08 December 2008
Bart posted this 16 November 2008

I'm considering buying a nice stevens tip up in .38 ballard Extra Long.  I know I can use .357 Maximum cases, and NEI makes a .375 heeled bullet 171 grains which sounds like it would work nicely.    I am very experienced caster and hand loader, but heeled bullets and this caliber are all new to me.  I am in a quandary about seating and crimping the bullet.  From what I've read there's really no secret to seating...you do it by hand/thumb just pushing the heel into the case till it stops against the bullet shoulder.  But crimping is obviously a no go, since it seems to require a special pliers like tool ( ? ).  In lieu of that, I'm hearing one can use “silicon adhesive” ( ? )  to hold the bullet in place.   Does anyone  have any experience with this adhesive technique? Is it safe and effective?   Any special brand of silicon?   Secondly, Cartridges of the World says any .358 dia bullet in a .357 maximum case would work...but obviously, such a bullet would rattle down the barrel of the Steven's .375 diameter bore.   They also list the BP charge as 31 grns of ffg. OR 6 grns of unique using that regular .358 bullet. Given that the heeled bullet wouldn't be seated as deeply as a .358 diameter standard bullet, I'd be concerned about using more than the 31 grns of blk powder. would you address this by adding corn starch filler on top of the 31 grn blk powder charge (and then a fiber wad) to compress the load?  Or would it be safe to load the charge to 32, 33, 34 etc., grains of blk powder plus fiber wad, to get some bullet compression?  I don't want to blow this thing up, it wouldnt be cheap.   any experience / info you have on this would be very much appreciated.   Thanks in advance, Bart  

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NoDakJak posted this 17 November 2008

Check the article titled,    My “new” 380 Rook Rifle    by Jeffin NZ in the Singleshot thread.  Other than case lengths, your cartridges are quite similar.  Hope it helps.   Neil

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Ed Harris posted this 17 November 2008

Try the Remington factory 148-gr. hollowbased wadcutter bullets as made for the .38 Special.  Inside deburr brass and flare well so that you can hand start the base band with no risk of scraping any lube off. Flush seat in ordinary, common .357 Magnum brass.  Using the longer case to reduce jump is not necessary with smokeless powder, and may impair ballistic uniformity unless you use a bulky (read expensive) powder such as Trail Boss.  Use only enough taper crimp to remove all mouth flare.  Use a charge of 3.5 grs. of Bullseye, Red Dot or 700X or 4.2 grs. of W231, TiteGroup or HP38.  The HBWC bullet will upset easily to fill the .375 barrel if you use a suitable charge of fast-burning pistol powder.  If my former .360 No. 5, rechambered to use .357 brass is any indicator, this gives better accuracy than trying to use a heeled bullet.  Much easier to load too!  

Years ago when Walt Melander was still alive NEI made me a hollow-based mould for the #161A which had a large base cavity of the same dimensions as the Remington HBWC, which I sent him for pattern.  I don't know if the current owners can make a hollowbase or not, but I would ask. Mine weighs 175 grs. cast of 10BHN alloy and shoots extremely well in my rechambered Rook rifle using 4 grs. of Bullseye in .357 Magnum cases at 1.58” OAL.   Makes a nice subsonic load for my Marlin .357 Cowboy rifle too. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Bart posted this 17 November 2008

Ed,

Thanks for that great info. Ive decided to go forward and bid on that rifle knowing I have some ammo options.

  I'm thinking I'd really like to try and duplicate the original loading for this rifle, using black powder and the .375 heeled bullet, hence the longer case.  Call me a wild and crazy traditionalist.

But your guidance sounds like another option I'll definitly consider.

Thanks again,

Bart

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JeffinNZ posted this 18 November 2008

Hi Bart.

We both need our heads looked at for getting involved with heel bullets ah?

I am having some success now with my .380 Rook.  Here is what I am doing.

1) My CBE bullet has a .365 heel so I have to put a generous flare on the case mouth to hand seat.  I then run the loaded round upside down into my Lyman 4500 lubesizer with a .375 sizing die installed.  I run the round deep enough that the bullet and front end of the case size .375 for ease in chambering.  This sizing operation swages down the heel to .357-.358 and this does not appear to inhibit good accuracy.

2) Crimping is not something I can do right now however with BP it appears less critical.  Harry Owen has done a lot of work with his .41 Colts with heel bullets and if you search on the web you will find his work.  He is adamant that crimped is imperative for smokeless but no so for BP.

3) I burn only Swiss 3Fg powder and load as much as you can fit in the case.  You won't go wrong.  The best filler in BP loads is BP.  Try a drop tube and compressing also.  I get only 17.5gr in my Rook after plunging it down a 24 inch drop tube.  Compressing the charge I could get 18.5-19.0gr in. 

4) Lube is a bit of challenge.  My bullet carries very little but enough to prevent leading.  I get fouling in the first 3-4 inches ahead of the chamber however I have just made a blow tube and this is keeping the fouling at bay.  I can not clean my rook from the breech so the blow tube is a great option.

5) Alloy.  I am using 40-1 (nominal) mix at 7.8 BHN.  It is working well.  I don't recommend going harder.  If anything I could so softer.  The alloy must be soft enough to slug up the heel at BP pressures which will likely be only 10K psi or so.

Once I get on top of the fouling I am getting inch groups at 50m/55y which I am pretty happy with.  I hope you co as well.

 

Cheers from New Zealand

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Bart posted this 18 November 2008

Jeff,

AH!!  I was wondering how to size my bullet.  Upside down loaded round into the lubrasizer!!  brilliant.  I'll try that. I was just going to run it into the sizer loose, like normal, and deal with the excess lube that oozed out arounf the heel the best I could.  But your approach sounds like a novel Idea.

I recall many years ago I did seat some 30 caliber heeled bullets into special cases a guy made for  me out of 32 shorts so I could use it in my colt 30 rimfire revolver (its weird, dont ask).  But he told me to use red loktite to seat the bullet firmly.  It worked great.    I may give that a shot.

So you think if I load enough BP (and a .358 fibre wad or two)  to slightly compress it, even though the heel wont be that deep into the case, I should be safe? I'd prefer not to mess with corn starch either.

I use 1:30 tin/lead for all my blk powder cartridges, except 1:20 for my 45-70 trapdoor springfield carbine.   I'll go with the softer 1:30 for the 38 XL.

Thks for your advise.

Bart

Here's the NEI mould I'll be buying.

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JeffinNZ posted this 18 November 2008

Hi

Good idea on the loctite.  I will try that also.

Skip the wads.  They will be undersize for the groove and may also act as a cushion preventing the heel slugging up to groove.  Harry Owen warns against such.

Good looking bullet.

Compress the powder enough that the heel seats and just kisses the powder.  Trial and error here.  There are lots of theories about compressed BP burning more consistently etc but I think its all BS.  More a factor of finding the right powder charge and sometimes the right amount of powder needs to be compressed to fit in the case.  Remember that our cases are light on internal capacity compared to the old days.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Bart posted this 18 November 2008

Jeff,

What do you mean by the wad being “undersized for the groove"?  You mean undersize for the bore?

I had always assumed that the fibre wad just protects the bullet base from the original ignition, to prevent it deforming, and gets burned up almost instantly.  Your saying in a heeled bullet set up that the wad would be going down the over sized (compared to the wad) bore unburned and could cause an obstruction in the bore??

I also assumed that the heeled base doesnt really upset/expand and work to drive the accuracy down the bore...that was accomplished by the full sized bullet body / driving bands. No?

I'll forgo the wad if it represents a danger or is superfluous.  But what am I misunderstanding?

Thks,

Bart

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JeffinNZ posted this 19 November 2008

Oh the heel most certainly slugs up to GROOVE diameter but only if the lead alloy is soft enough to allow it to do so.  Ever recovered .22RF bullets?  They used to have a heel but they don't when you dig them up. 

Check this out from Jim at CBE.

http://www.castbulletengineering.bigpondhosting.com/photos/album_003.htm?picture=../photos/32eef3e66ac84a17e885ca2e0c8dde60.jpg>http://www.castbulletengineering.bigpondhosting.com/photos/album003.htm?picture=../photos/32eef3e66ac84a17e885ca2e0c8dde60.jpg

Any wad you use will be undersized.  You can seat a .360 cal wad however your groove will be somewhere between .375 and .380 most likely.  As such your wad is undersized for the groove and will not protect the edges of the bullet.  Referring again to the .22RF; there are not wads in RF loads and they work just dandy.  A wad will not pose a risk but you can get by without it and likely achieve better results doing so.

 

Cheers from New Zealand

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Bart posted this 19 November 2008

Jeff,

Damn..that makes perfect sense!!!

Thanks again!!

Bart

:dude:

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JeffinNZ posted this 19 November 2008

Shot my .380 again today and she put 3 into around an inch at 50m but dropped a couple low.  Vertical string.  Might be ignition or lack of crimp.  Group was not too offensive though and about 3 inches overall.  Still minute of European hare.

Cheers from New Zealand

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Antietamgw posted this 08 December 2008

As usual, I'm behind - just saw your post. I posted this on the Marlin Collectors Forum last winter regarding a heeled bullet for the .38 Long. It might be of some help.  I believe NEI makes a mold for a heeled bullet. If you want to try some out of my cobbled up mold, I'll send you some.

A couple weeks back I had an afternoon off and decided to alter a mold to (hopefully) suit my #2 Ballard in .38 Long. I started with a single cavity Lee with a cavity cut for their 150 gr. SWC. I ground a nose form bit to open the SWC nose and first lube groove to .3765. I like the RNFP design and have had good luck with it on paper, cans and game so that is the contour I ground the form bit for. The driving band and middle band were opened to .360, which suits fired cases in my chamber.  I chucked the mold in a 4 jaw chuck, indicated in and said a little prayer. It turned out pretty well and drops a bullet of 171 grains.  I left a lube groove on the nose and left the grooves on what is now the heel, just in case they were needed.  My #2 was in sad shape when I got it and needs some work. I used screws and a link from another rifle to get her up and shooting to test the bullets from this mold. I'll likely have to make a trigger as the sear is ground incorrectly and has been shortened a bit as well. The trigger pull has to be 10 lbs! I cast some bullets from straight wheel weights. They were lubed with Johnson's Paste Wax by warming the bullets to 175F - 200F and rolling them in a jug with a dollop of the Johnson's. I've used this before on plinking loads at higher pressures than I intended for this load and it worked fine. Accuracy wasn't affected either way based on the same loads with alox or LBT Blue. When the Johnson's dries it isn't sticky and doesn't pick up dirt or lint. I thought it might work well for an outside lubed bullet.  I decided to start with Unique and figured about 3.2gr. to possibly 3.4gr. would be about the max I'd want to use. My rifle's chamber takes a 1.1” case length, longer than the .880” - 1.0” lengths I've seen listed for .38 Long. I looked at pressure tested data for .38 S&W and .38 Spl to come up with an idea for safe loads. I started at  2.2 gr with vertical stringing. Groups rounded out at 2.6 gr. the group in the pic is 3.0 gr. and is the heaviest I've tried. I'll shoot it some more with 2.8 and 3.0 and probably won't go any higher. So far all groups have been shot at 30 yards from sitting position using the original sights.  I'd like to add a tang sight and a Lyman 17 front as I've never liked Buckhorn type rear sights and small brass front blades much. I was a bit concerned with stabilizing the 171 gr. bullet at the low velocities and looking at the targets, I may be getting some tipping which should be easy to see at longer ranges. . Until the weather gets better and I have time to set up my longer range, 30 yards will have to do. Attached is a pic of the bullet, loaded round and a 10 shot target. If anyone has some load data they would care to share, it would be appreciated. It was fun getting this #2 shooting again. There is alot of work yet to do but it looks promising. It might just make a squirrel rifle...

I shot another 50 rounds and believe I'll settle on 2.8gr. It will be interesting to see what the chrono says but I'm not ready to open my real range yet. I tried some light loads using Bullseye but Unique was definately more consistant. I'd like to look into a powder slower than Unique as I THINK it is slightly position sensitive. Hard to tell with the heavy trigger and shooting from sitting position. It was pretty cold and the fliers came more often as the temp of my butt dropped. Thanks for the tip on Jeff's Outfitter's. I'd heard of them somewhere, possibly here or the ASSRA forum. I'll order one. It should do fine as I don't expect to be making many sight changes once I settle on a load and front sight that I can see in the woods. I've been having a ball with this rifle and have probably put 200 rounds through it the last couple weeks. I need to quit shooting it long enough to make a trigger and get some different sights on it. The heavy trigger makes It hard to shoot supported and impossible offhand. As far as molds go, I might modify some for others but would need to work on tooling to be able to consistantly produce the same cavity. Right now my workload at work and on the farm is pretty heavy. I'd like to try a shorter bullet keeping about the same bearing length. There is nothing wrong with the 171 gr. but I'm curious since the original design was for 140gr. -150gr. I'll have to dig around a little, I know I have one stashed somewhere safe...

I've been shooting this rifle a good bit the last couple weeks. I'm anxious to get it the trigger work done and get it on the bench. A recent group - guess my concentration just won't last 10 rounds anymore...

Keep your plowshare and your sword. Know how and when to use them.

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