I'm getting ready to start the next step of trying to get a PB bullet to shoot 1 inch aggs in a fixed case 30/06 and thought the other thread was getting a little heavy. I was using my Winchester 670 up to this point but decided to try something different. Next string of tests will be with my Savage 110. I wrote before about the throat in the original barrel looking like someone took a chisel to ot so I found a used 06 barrel on ebay. This one looks much better and looks like it was chambered straight where as my Winchester was pretty well off center. The throat on the Savage is shorter than the Win. so I'm going to try a couple of different tapers to see what happens. I tapered it so the base of the ogive is .304, .305, and .306. For the Win. I had it at .306. The picture has an arrow pointing at the spot I'm talking about. It'll be a couple of weeks before I get out to shoot it but I'm starting a record for my own use and letting people who have any interest know I haven't given up. Edit: I just checked the weather and its supposed to be 75 with light winds tomorrow so while I just cast these 2 days ago I'm shooting!
30/06 Plain Base Bullet Part 2
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- Last Post 08 October 2024
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are you using and Eagan T-Die to taper?
No. I'm using a 1 1/2 degree included die I made out of threaded rod to match the throat on a couple of my cast bullet bench gun barrels. Isn't an exact match for the 06 throat but close enough for government work. I imagine the Eagan die would accomplisih the same thing.
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I took my Savage out today to see how it shot. I could do the time honored shooters tradition and just lie about it but that ain't gonna change the facts. To say the results were dismal would be an understatement. 3 different tapers, three different powders, God knows how many different loads, holding it every which way except standing on my head, Wilson neck size bushings from .336 to .339, shimming the front of the stock for a little upward pressure. The results were always the same. Up down, right left with no discernable group at all. And I'm not talking a little out. I'm talking 5 inches one way then 5 inches the other. Maybe I should have let the bullets age a bit but patience ain't in my DNA. I scoped the thing with an older, pre parallax adjustment lock ring, Weaver T36 I had sitting around. Maybe the scope took a crap, or at least I hope that's the issue. I shot 37 five shot groups and the last one was no better than the first. I just pulled a known good scope, another T36, off my Winchester and stuck it on this one. Hopefully a different scope and aging the next batch of bullets a bit will make a difference. If not next time when I'm driving over the bridge on the way home I'm gonna pull over and pitch it over the side into the Kankakee River. Let the fish use it as bottom structure since it ain't doing me any good.
Those .22s are looking mighty good right about now.
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Pat, Happens to all of us. Dug out an old Unertl scope from the back of the shelf and mounted it on a rifle. Looked like 1935 at Camp Perry. Every three shots it would change zero. At the end of the day, I remember it was bad 20 years ago and I was too honorable to try to sell it and thought I would keep it for "parts". Took it apart and sold the pieces on eBay.
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I don't understand what you mean about shooting extra slow bullets into sawdust to see how the bullet is aligning with the barrel? How would that show how the bullet was aligning with the barrel
Ed Doonan built a bullet recovery box from two sheets of plywood, four feet square and eight feet long. Filled with oiled sawdust with a slit cut each foot to insert paper to track the progress of the bullet. The opening was a foam rubber funnel shaped like a fish trap funnel. We spent several weekends shooting into it to find out the bullet reaction to the leade and barrel. We found fitting the leade was definitely one of the keys.
The only loads that went the entire length of the box were the military .30-'06 armor-piercing and the .45-70 Government round-nose.
One experiment was the 300 grain RCBS 45-300-FN bullet in my Marlin 1895 .45-70. Sizing the bullet to bore diameter (.458), as was the then current recommendation, you could clearly see the bullet was traveling sideways down the barrel, Taking the bullet straight out of the mold (.460) and using a .460 sizing die only to lubricate, the groups were half the size. These bullets showed even rifling marks the length of the bullet.
Just a thought, but I'd shoot the bullets at the planned velocity rather lightly loading them. Easing them in might not simulate give the same results.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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Pat things I've experienced; Using Weaver mounts,it's interesting and good to know how much or how many clicks off,it is doing an RR(removal replace). Most of my varmint rigs will be a click or 2 @100.
Same with taking an action out of it's well bedded stock. Being usually no scope change.
On Savage barrel RR,the factory interfaces between the recoil lug/action/nut face "can be" problematic. I usually run a thicker lug but it is possible if you're in a stock class to "flatten" a factory lug. Taking a super light facing cut off nut and action... have seen them require, .003" to clean up.... really helps.
There's more to Savage's but will leave it at that. Good luck with your project.
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I would do as OU suggested, not the fire lapping as it wears the entire barrel. Using a tight patch smeared with 320 or so grit will do the trick a lot of times, just lap the the first inch or so of the throat until you tire and shoot it a few rounds. Continue until the wife says it's time to come in and go to bed knowing you've surpassed your daily exercise regiment.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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Hope the second goes as well as the first. Thanks for sharing your fun with us.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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dang !! ... what a learning opportunity !! ...how lucky can a guy get ?? ...
how does the rifle shoot with good mj bullets ??
hopefully your T36 is ok ... I love my old T20 ... but I did mess it up once by putting a mount ring too close to the turret... it might have been one of the last Weavers repaired by the good ol boy in Texas ...
hang in there ... very entertaining ...
we share your pain ... just not as much ... heh ...
ken
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To be perfectly honest Ken I hope the scope has gone south. At least I'll have an alibi for today. Maybe there's a reason that scope has been up in the closet for 25 years and I replaced it with a locking ring scope but I'll be damned if I can remember.
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I have a Burris scope I took off a rifle 10 years ago because it seemed it was wandering afrer adjustmens . I never marked it and last month wasted range time before I reminded myself it was bum.its on its way to Burris this week.
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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Hope the scope is the cure but if your luck is like mine on eBay purchases the barrel would be the next thing to check as in thread alignment and fit.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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Dale the barrels off of eBay are always suspect but that's the only game in town I know of. There's a guy selling new take off barrels from Savage Axis rifles that are supposed to fit the 110 action. My question. Is where do you come up with new Axis barrels? I can't see a bunch of guys in his area all the sudden pulling barrels off of Savage rifles. But I could be wrong. The barrel I have looks good visually. I'm gonna take a jaunt down to the range tomorrow to see if I figure out if the scope went south. It's supposed to be pretty windy but I can't stand the suspense.
George I used to use fixed 12x Burris scopes on my 223 prairie dog guns. Those things held up extremely well under some pretty rough handling and bouncing around in the back of a truck. I don't baby my guns or scopes so if they can stand up to me you're pretty much guaranteed it's a solid product. After Burris gets done reconditioning that scope it'll probably be better than new.
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Pat, Accurate Shooter forum may be a good place to start for a Axis barrel, several others as well as the barrel makers like Shilen, etc. Hope the scope change works as chasing a around for a good production barrel is a quest not for those impatient like myself, good luck.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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I've never been a fan of Savage and their barrel nut but have seen some accuracy improvements by lapping the threads and the mating faces. Not saying it will improve yours but some folks get a charge out of working on the 'unfixable'. Me, I would load some extra low velocity bullets and fire into saw dust to see how the bullet is aligning to the barrel. Bet the bullets will be all over the place.
Forrest Gump is my smarter brother.
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I'm not a Savage fan boy but I've seen enough of them able to shoot some pretty small groups to say they're not a worthwhile brand. I don't know if it's still the case but Savages used to dominate the PRO class, although that could have been because that's what most of the better shooters were using, and probably still hold a lot if not most of the national records. I don't believe the floating bolt head head or barrel nut has anything to do with their accuracy like some guys claim but neither seem to hurt either. I think both were done for economy and production speed. For some reason their barrels shoot and the barrel is where accuracy comes from. They might look like a railroad track in there but for some reason they work. Years ago Sportmart was closing out their gun dept. and had Savage rifles for 99 bucks apiece. I bought two .223s and a 22/250 for prairie dog shooting and all three performed excellent without doing anything to them. Like I said I'm not a fan of any production gun company but I have this Savage so will work with it. I like my Stolle Panda action and Shilen Select Match barrels, but I can't say anything bad about Savage rifles.
I don't understand what you mean about shooting extra slow bullets into sawdust to see how the bullet is aligning with the barrel? How would that show how the bullet was aligning with the barrel
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Do you have a 1.5 degree included throating reamer to cut both the tapered throat and matching tapered sizing die?
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Thanks for the comments so I'll go through them one by one.
Keith I do have a 1 1/2 throating reamer and use a die I cut with it to taper the bullet I'm using. It's not a match for the 06 throat but I'm getting good rifling impressions on the ogive and front driving band depending in how much taper I put on it. I plan on using it for HNT class so no thoating allowed.
Bud and Dale. I don't know what shooting into a saw dust trap would tell if had the ambition to build one but I can tell what it would get me. About 25 years in the pen because I live right across from a school and probably kicked off the range if I ever dragged it there. There is the distinct possibility the used barrel barrel I got off of eBay is just a piece of crap. My reason for feeling this way is because the barrel with the beat up throat shot circles around this one but I just couldn't accept the way the throat looked. I can't think of a possible way the people at Savage could screw a barrel in and tighten a locking nut any different than I do so fit's off the table. I could try it with jacketed bullets but of they shot alright that just might extend my agony getting it to shoot with a cast bullet. I'm not really a neophyte when it comes to this stuff and looked at the scope first because that was the cheapest and easiest thing to check. The action's good, the trigger breaks a little under 2 lbs., two scopes with the same results, bedding is typical Savage but it shot alright before, bullet cast and prepped the same as the time with the original barrel. And I am shooting them at the planned velocity, its a plain base bullet and have shot it from. 1100 to 1300 fps with the same results. This is leading me to believe there's just something not right with the barrel I've been playing with the last few times and is now sitting under my bench waiting for next year's tomato planting.
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Because of bullets longer bearing surface i remember trying a freebore reamer to lengthen freebore. It did not work in my case. Some type of taper worked best, either fake erosion or taper reamer worked best for me.
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I considered fire lapping but now I have a case of the ass against this barrel and its become an obsession so will throw more money at it with another barrel. At least it prevents me from becoming a drunk, drug addict, or woman chaser......scratch the last one.
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Pat - re suspect scopes. Do you have a boresighter? If so, you could check between shots and perhaps explain why the next shot went wild or didn't.
I have an old Tasco boresighter with 4 minute grid. When I get sighted in I record the boresighter reading. If I take a tumble, or the rifle does, or I have an unexplained miss, or if as in your case if the scope is suspect, I can check the boresighter for change. No change = leave it alone and keep shooting. Change means a maybe adjustment pending a range trip.
A spud with as little slop as possible of course adds reliability to the process.
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