I have now loaded my 30-30 with unique,blue dot,red dot and 2400. I want more loads using pistol powder. I would like some using 700x,800x or PB. Bullet weights would be 100-180 gr cast lead OR jacketed. If you have some please share them. I have the Trail Boss data already. Thank you so much.Jim
30-30 pistol powder
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- Last Post 25 May 2009
I have now loaded my 30-30 with unique,blue dot,red dot and 2400. I want more loads using pistol powder. I would like some using 700x,800x or PB. Bullet weights would be 100-180 gr cast lead OR jacketed. If you have some please share them.
In the .30-30 using fast burning pistol or shotshell powders such as Bullseye, 700-X or Red Dot start at 4 grains with cast bullets lighter than 130 grs. and use 5 grains as a starting load for heavier cast bullets or any jacketed ones from 110-170 grs. Fast powders have a narrow safe working range and do not recommend exceeding about 6 grains of these in the .30-30 with any bullet.
With somewhat slower pistol and shotshell powders such as 231, 7625, Unique, or PB you can start at 5 grs. with lead or 6 grs. with jacketed, but you should stop at 7 grs. with 231 or 7625; and at 8 grs. with Unique or PB.
I don't have personal experience using Blue Dot or 800X in the .30-30, but either should work with charges in the range of 8-10 grs. with most cast bullets.
2400 is one of the best powders for cast in the .30-30. Starting charge for plainbased bullets is 10 grs. up to 13 grs. maximum without a GC. Using GC bullets or jacketed ones work in the range of 13 to 16 grs. Do not exceed 16 grs. of #2400 as that is a full charge load with a 170-gr. bullet in the .30-30 with this powder.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Thanks Ed. These are the Blue Dot loads. They came from THR forum. I've been using 13gr of bluedot under a Speer 150 gr FN. I started at Eight gr and worked my way up. I took it to 15 but my rifle likes 13 better. If you see anything wrong here please let me know.
Blue Dot Range Report: 30/30 Winchester
Case: Remington
Primer: Fed 210
Bullets: Winchester 110 gr RN, Hornady 170 grain FN
110 grain RN:
7grs: 1162 fps 13grs: 1858 fps 8grs: 1266 fps 14grs: 1924 fps 9grs: 1358 fps 15grs: 2087 fps 10grs: 1542 fps 16grs: 2143 fps 11grs: 1706 fps 17grs: 2244 fps 12grs: 1720 fps 18grs: 2322 fps
170 grains Flat Nose
7grs: 1009 fps 12grs: 1473 fps 8grs: 1078 fps 13grs: 1555 fps 9grs: 1153 fps 14grs: 1597 fps 10grs: 1277 fps 15grs: 1685 fps 11grs: 1389 fps
Notes:
- This is a great youth rifle in 30/30. Recoil is even much lower than factory 30/30 loads.
- Penetration of an 8 inched diameter pine for a back stop, was penetrated completely thru with a velocity of 1000 fps with the 170 grain bullet and with a velocity of 1200 fps with the 110 grain round nose.
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My educated guess is that Blue Dot charges over about 14 grs. of Blue Dot with a 170-gr. bullet in the .30-30 are “probably” too hot and I don't think I'd want to exceed about 15 grs. with the 110-gr. bullets.
I have no pressure tested data to base this on, but it is a reasonable judgement considering that Alliant's published data on their web site tops out for pressure using 16 grs. of #2400 in the .30-30 with a 170-gr. jacketed bullet and #2400 is a slower powder than Blue Dot.
Using the 110-gr. jacketed bullets I have found they perform best at velocities which approximate the .30 M1 Carbine velocities they are designed for. Not over about 2000 fps. The 16 grs. of #2400 charge I use with my GC cast bullet loads shoots well with the Remington 110-gr. JSP so I see no reason to change.
Just my two cents.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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For the 100/110gr plinkers I use 9gr of Unique most of the time. I got this from a shooting times article back in the early nineties or late eighties. I haven't tried the bluedot loads with 170gr bullets. I have used 150gr. I would like to try it with the sierra HP 30-30 bullets. Have you written any books? If you have what is/are the titles?
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Have you written any books? If you have what is/are the titles?
I haven't written any books. I've written a bunch of articles in American Rifleman from 1972-1984 and some for the Gun Digest, but based onr experience writing articles for publication the only ones who profit are the publishers. Except when on staff at NRA I never got paid enough money for an article to cover more than expenses.
Gun books are mostly a vanity press and aren't a good deal financially for authors. I'd rather just post my stuff free on the Internet for the enjoyment of any who care to read it. If the CBA would like to collect my works here and in the Fouling Shot and use any proceeds to help the game, that would be OK. I'll leave that project to somebody else. That fits my “Ed's Red” philosophy on life.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I know I sure have enjoyed your writing. At least what I've read. Someone gave me a link. I cant tell if these are real loads or computer generated. They look like they are from a ballistics computer or something along those lines. How do they look? How accurate do you think the data is?
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That's a very good link.
I have found the .357 Magnum and the .30-'06 data to be spot-on.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I posted this same question on several other sites. It is interesting to see the other responses. I had one guy that told me it was unsafe to use jacketed bullets with these loads. One guy suggested IMR 3031. Of all the forums I've been in this is the best source for exchanging info on loading. I am blown away by the truly helpful and friendly people I have met here. Thank you all so much,Jim
This is what I run into EVERYTIME reduced loads or rifle loads using pistol powders are discussed. Sam makes me want to twist his head off sometimes.
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"I cannot stress strong enough the danger of using small R/P powder loads in casings that are larger capacity than .22 Hornet without using a filler to hold the powder back to the ignition hole.It may not blow the first time,it may not blow in hundreds of rounds,but blow it will and once whether on the first round or # 1000,once will be suficient.There are lots of articles on this,read up on it. sam." This is one of Sams posts from the link.We are in danger here guys<G> George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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You see what I mean. Did you read the last exchange.
Check out the first two responces to the 30-30 pistol powder question.
Tell me Why I'm so impressed with you guys. I found real handloaders WOOT!!!
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"Altho reduced charges have their place (usually because someone cant afford different guns for different jobs)I personally would never attempt it without some way to hold the powder against the ignition hole.
Sam."
Now that is a classic<G>
I'll just stop reading that forum and stay here don't want to start a forum war<G>
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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"Altho reduced charges have their place (usually because someone cant afford different guns for different jobs)I personally would never attempt it without some way to hold the powder against the ignition hole.
Sam."
Now that is a classic<G>
I'll just stop reading that forum and stay here don't want to start a forum war<G>
George
Hahahaha What makes it so bad is I wasnt even arguing with him. I have seen him argue with himself for two sometimes three days. Hahahaha
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I posted this question on several different sites. I wanted to try and get as many new loads as possible. I also wanted to compare the answers. I posted the links so you could see the various responses. I thought it would be easier to share like this.
Some of the people were quite helpful.
I have now loaded my 30-30 with unique,blue dot,red dot and 2400. I want more loads using pistol powder. I would like some using 700x,800x or PB. Bullet weights would be 100-180 gr cast lead OR jacketed. If you have some please share them. I have the Trail Boss data already. Thank you so much.Jim
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Going to test the 30-30 Marlin microgroove with two plain-base loads Wednesday.I will be using 6.0 of Winchester Super Target "WST” .I have had good luck with it in a 30-30 bolt action rifle and with 4.5g in the 22-250 low velocity loads.I will be shooting the SAECO #630(140 fn) and Lyman 308241(150rn) I will keep you posted.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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Thanks, When you get a chance check out the gunloads link.
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Nice reply from Sierra.Good to see they “care"It looks like it mayhave shut down the “experts” about reduced loads.
I used to shoot W296 and H110 in the 308 (18-19g) and 30-30 (15-16g) both with 180-200g bullets. I think it has the potential to be dangerous.I never varied the bullet weight or charges so maybe thats why i had no trouble.And i never heard of anybody that did ,at least personally.I burned pounds of the stuff,but 2400 does the same accuracy wise so why take the risk.I believe Olin ran some data with cast for Ed Harris years back in the 308 and said it gave odd pressure spikes.(I don't remember where i read this) This may be the “urban legend” they keep repeating about reduced load danger.The bigger risk is double charging the small pistol powder loads in the big cases.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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What makes it so bad Mr. Expert is the mod. I think it is a case of I don't use those loads so nobody else should. I'll never understand what is wrong with the pursuit of knowledge. I like increasing the versatility and accuracy of my rifles. I would be interested to know if Ed had to put up with this much negative feedback before he became an icon(at least to the people that read his articles). Has it always been this bad? I'm just tired of being asked “WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO DO THAT” everytime I ask a question. If you dont ever try anything new......You will never get anything done. sorry for the rant. Jim
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I would be interested to know if Ed had to put up with this much negative feedback... sorry for the rant. Jim
I never met a successful writer or editor with a thin skin.
When I used to get “bedbug letters” when at the NRA I would suggest that they submit their ideas for publication and would send them the writer's guidelines. It seemed logical that if they were so knowledgeable and could succinctly put it on paper that they should get paid! After all, I was getting paid for the junk I write!
A rejection letter or two is great for character building. You must learn not to take it personally. I prise rejections from other publishers of articles which the Gun Digest bought and for which I won the Amber prize for.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I never thought of myself as a writer. Thanks Ed I'm just flustered I guess. I get tired of having to argue with “experts” that make blanket statements instead of just answering the questions. Thank God I found the CBA forum. I really mean that. I have felt stifled for the past six months.
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Going to test the 30-30 Marlin microgroove with two plain-base loads Wednesday.I will be using 6.0 of Winchester Super Target "WST” .I have had good luck with it in a 30-30 bolt action rifle and with 4.5g in the 22-250 low velocity loads.I will be shooting the SAECO #630(140 fn) and Lyman 308241(150rn) I will keep you posted.
George
The charge was actually 7.0 of WST,I mistyped it.
The SAECO #630 was not too good running 2.5” groups.The Lyman 308241(out of a7 cavity mold) did better.The first group with it was 4-1/2"! With the first two shot landed high left 3" with the last three “on target"into about 1.5" The next two groups were 1.9” and 1.6” and landed where the last three shots of the first group “settled".I shot one 5 shoter' at 200 yards and it was a touch over 5".Still work to do for sure.I shot the remainder offhand at gallon milk jugs at 100.The real purpose for the load anyway.For that they both were a 100% success.Even if my offhand was “awfull"hand yesturday.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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JimKim,
Interesting subject. Historically speaking, from 1896 to the mid 1920's, .30-30 “Short Range” cartridges “For small game where the more powerful cartridge is not necessary" were offered as a standard factory loading.
They were factory produced .30-30's with 100 and 117 gr. lead bullets to replicate .32-20 performance. Being somewhat of a .30-30 nut, I have done an exhaustive study on this interesting class of .30-30 cartridges.
I acquired a number of specimens to dissect and test and all were loaded with anywhere from 4.4 grs. to 9.0 grs. of various early smokeless powders loaded loosely in the cases.
To the fellow that mistakenly thinks that small charges of smokeless without a filler will eventually dissect a rifle .........Before placing this ammunition on the market, the ammunition companies would have done some exhaustive testing to make sure there would not be any problem, and .........there wasn't....... with 1,000,000's of “Short Range” .30-30 cartridges manufactured and used .:D
Here are some of the earlier .30-30 “Short Range” loadings:
100 gr. lead 4.4 Bullseye / 5.0 Walsrode / 9.0 DuPont No. 2 Bulk Smokeless
117 gr. lead 6.0 Ballistite / 6.0 Walsrode / 7.0 Schultz / 7.0 Marksman
In testing equivalent charges of current powders, I found these to be ballistic equivalents of the early smokeless powders in these loadings:
Walsrode & Ballistite - 4756, Trail Boss
Schultz & Marksman - Blue Dot, HS7, 571
DuPont No. 2 Bulk Smokeless - 2400
Unique, Universal and 800X produced a bit more velocity in equal charge weights than 4756 and Trail Boss, but are very close equivalents in the charge weights above.
Cartridge history sure is interesting!
w30wcf
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I want some cast bullets for my 30-30. Which ones would you recommend. I was thinking of buying them from here
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Interesting subject. Historically speaking, from 1896 to the mid 1920's, .30-30 “Short Range” cartridges “For small game where the more powerful cartridge is not necessary" were offered as a standard factory loading.
I had a Winchester mold of about 115 grains marked 30 WCF SR..It was all nose and a very short body that cast .307 out of W/W? I always assumed this was the short range bullet, Is this correct?
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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I have read the posts in those shooters forums.
About this danger of shooting reduced fast powder loads without a wad to keep the powder near the primer,
I am asking myself is not this the loading density of the millions of factory 38 sp.bullseye target loads that has been shot in the past 100 years?
There should have been thousands of burst revolvers,even from people using factory loads.
I have been taught that dacron or natural fiber fillers may sometimes bulge chambers.
I fear to be more dangerous to shoot double dose loads or have bullets stuck in the bore.
That's why I love 357 magnum tevolvers,they are strong and have thick cylinders.
G.
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One must be very careful using fast pistol or shotgun powders in a rifle. Some of these powders are intended to be used ONLY at moderate pressures. Check the loading data to see what the highest pressure they are used for. Some shotgun powders are rated to something like 12,000 to 15,000 psi. I like to use Alliant powders because they rate their fast powders to something like 30,000 psi.
If you use the computer program, look in the users manual, there is a good discussion on the use of fast powders.
Cityboy
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I goofed; I left out the name of the computer program. It's QuickLoad.
Jim
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Interesting subject. Historically speaking, from 1896 to the mid 1920's, .30-30 “Short Range” cartridges “For small game where the more powerful cartridge is not necessary" were offered as a standard factory loading.
I had a Winchester mold of about 115 grains marked 30 WCF SR..It was all nose and a very short body that cast .307 out of W/W? I always assumed this was the short range bullet, Is this correct?
George
George,
Yes, that was the 2nd “Short Range” bullet circa 1904-1924. Advertised weight was 117 grs. in pure lead. The first was 100 grs. circa 1896 to 1903. The reason it was mostly nose is because it was loaded close to the same overall length as the standard loading. Do you still have the mold?
From the John Witzel collection:
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It looks like I am going to buy my first bullet mold. I think it will be the Ranch Dog TLC311-165-RF.
Then I don't know what next any other suggestions?
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Do you still have the mold?
Sold it for a mighty $20 last year.I figured as much about the bullet lenght/seating depth.it was almost a “base band” bullet.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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It looks like I am going to buy my first bullet mold. I think it will be the Ranch Dog TLC311-165-RF.
Then I don't know what next any other suggestions?
The Lee mold from Ranch Dog looks pretty good,tell me how it shoots.
The RCBS 180FN also does real well and I have the 311041 and it's also a winner.The Lee 170FN bullet did good for me,but it was 15 yrs ago and I dont remember the exact details.I was shooting it in a Savage 340 bolt gun at full power cast out of Linotype.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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Ok thats the RCBS 30-180-FN? Can I order it in a HP? I want a hollow point with a large bearing surface.
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It is the RCBS 180FN and is not available in a HP version.You can find HP 31141's used sometimes,but they are about $75-$100.I don't think they are necessary in the 30-30 if you shoot wheel weight and keep velocity in the 1600-1800 range.Friend Bob Mills has shot 16+ animals with flat nosed 30's like that and says they work great up to about 125.
George Damron
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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George, Whoever bought your mold got an extremely good deal!! I paid $75 for mine and that was about 10 years ago.
jimkim, I don't have any experience with Western bullet co but you might want to order some 3118's and a Lee .311” push through sizing die that fits into you reloading press. Run the .312” bullets through the die and load thm over either 5.5/231 or 6.0/ Unique or Universal or Trail Boss, or 7.0/ Blue Dot. You should be pleasantly surprised.:D
Either the 311291, 311041 or the 180 RCBS are great molds for the .30-30.
Have fun!
w30wcf
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I have your story on getting the most from your 22 long rifle,in Gun Digest 1991,
What is the title that got your first Amber Award?
The 1986 story on the M16A2?
I ve not forgotten Your moulds,
I have been on the Wide Missouri,G.
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Actually the post before this should have been sent to ED HARRIS as a PM.
Have been loading 170 gr bullets with fast shotgun powder,To morrow I'll try Vihtavuori 110 ,very similar to the old 2400.
Giorgio.
PS of course I am wearing a flotation Jacket,usually I am thinner.
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j Kort-
Run the .312” bullets through the die Will you Marlins take bullets that big or bigger? Mine wont take a bullet much over .3095.Mine are some of the 20+ Microgroove versions from the late 60's.I was curios if you know if the 12-16 groove Marlins had throating and neck differences from mine.I seem ot remember being able to chamber larger bullets in one i had 15 years ago but cant remember the rifling type,but it was Microgoove of some sort.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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linoww,
I have 2 Marlin .30-30's. One is a 336SC (Sporting Carbine)made in '49. It has a .310” dia. 4 groove barrel. It will take a bullet up to .313” diameter in the R-P bras that I have. I normally shoot .311-.312” diameter bullets in it.
The other is a 12 groove 336A made in '77. Its 24” barrel has a groove diameter of .308” and a bore diameter of .300". Using the lot of R-P brass I have, it will take a bullet of .312” diameter but I normally shoot .310” diameter bullets in it.
Several years ago I had the pleasure of working with two other marlin .30-30's.....a 16 groove made in 1957 and a 22 groove made in 1961. Both barrels had a bore diameter of .304 and a groove diameter of .308, give or take .0005". I shot .310” diameter lino bullets (311041) in them with good accuracy at 2,000 f.p.s. (2” to 2 1/4” groups @ 100). @ 2,200 f.p.s. groups doubled in size since the oversized bore was not supporting the .301” diameter nose. I did not test them to see if they would have taken larger bullets. I used R-P brass in those tests.
If you have'nt done so, you might try some R-P brass. I found that some lots had necks of thinner wall thickness than other.......of course that's true for other types as well.
w30wcf
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If you have'nt done so, you might try some R-P brass. I found that some lots had necks of thinner wall thickness than other.......of course that's true for other types as well.
w30wcf
Thats what I am doing.I may turn some necks even though they will be fragile.I am curiuos what i can so with bigger bullets.
George
"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!
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;) I searched for a cast bullet load my M-94 several years ago with similar criteria in mind. Using the RCBS 150 grn GC bullet mould (without the GC) I wanted to equal the snap of full power 357 mag loads from a long barreled pistol. I finally settled on 9.5 grns of Herco ignited with CCI 300 large pistol primers. I use the bullets as cast (usual diameter 309.5 - .310) lubed with Lee liquid alox. This load produces around 1,450 fps from my rifle. It has surprising punch with powder puff recoil. I've used the load for years. I originally found it as an “accuracy load” in a Lyman manual with their bullet of the same weight. There is only one negative for me to gripe about. Herco is very bulky and I've had it bridge with smaller diameter drop tubes on my powder measures. I've solved the problem by dropping the charges from a larger diameter drop tube into 44 mag cases, then into the 30-30 cases via a powder funnel. Haven't used it for jacketed bullets in 30-30 but it works great for reduced jacketed bullet loads in 222 and 223 Remington with 40-50 grn bullets in the 2200 - 2500 fps velocity range.
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700X loads for 30-30 from Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook:
115 grain #311441- 7.0 grains to 8.9
151 grain #311440- 6.5 grains to 8.0
169 grain #311291- 6.0 grains to 7.5
170 grain #31141- 6.0 grains to 7.5
173 grain #311407- 6.0 grains to 7.5
I realize this is an old thread, but here's the 700X answer. :armyhelmet:
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ho-hum, now i find this thread. last week i consulted my lyman book and decided on 7.0 700x with the lyman 173gr boolet. shot from a 94 winchester trapper with 16” bbl this load grouped about 4” at 100yds and chronyed average 1150 for ten shots. i was pleased. m
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