Need cast load 30-40 Krag

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  • Last Post 25 April 2009
Maggie Drawers posted this 09 July 2008

I've got a nice US Krag (rifle, not carbine) and I am trying to find a good target load for it.

I was advised to try 18.5 grs of 4198 with my 311284 (210 gr) bullet.  At 100 yards it is great - groups under 2.25 inches consistently (that's as good as I can shoot with iron sights). 

But - the vintage rifle match I want to shoot in also has targets at 228 yards.  This load I find creeps along at 1475 fps.  I need something with a bit more ooomph to reach out to 228 yards.

I'm thinking in the area of 1600-maybe 1800 fps. 

The guy who suggested the 4198 load said that with his Krag he had no accuracy with that powder at higher velocities in his Krag. 

Anyone have any suggestions on a higher velocity 30-40 Krag load using the 210 grain 311284 bullet?

Thanks very much for any and all suggestions.

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RicinYakima posted this 09 July 2008

My references say that 1500 f/s will keep the '284 supersonic at 250 yards. I'd try 16.0 gr. of 24, 18.0 grains of SR4759 or 20 grains of 5744. Somewhere close to those you should get what you are looking for. hth, Ric

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Maggie Drawers posted this 09 July 2008

Thanks!  I'll give those a try.

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Ed Harris posted this 10 July 2008

Maggie Drawers wrote: I've got a nice US Krag (rifle) and I am trying to find a good target load for it. I was advised to try 18.5 grs of 4198 with 311284... At 100 yards it is great - groups under 2.25 inches consistently (as good as I can shoot with iron sights).  But - the vintage rifle match I want to shoot in also has targets at 228 yards.  This load I find creeps along at 1475 fps.  I need something with a bit more ooomph to reach out to 228 yards. I'm thinking... of 1600-maybe 1800 fps.  If your current load is accurate you don't need to boost the velocity any higher than it is to shoot well at 200 yards.  Old .32-40 target rifles shooting breech-seated, plainbased bullets weren't much over 1400 fps and did fine.

In my Krag, .308 Win. and .303 British rifles I use from 14-15 grs. of #2400 with a 200-gr. NEI bullet and it works well at about 1400 fps.  With bullets that fit and proper lubrication I expect 4-5 inch groups at 200 yards firing prone with sling  using target aperture sights.  There is nothing wrong with your current 4198 load, it should work fine.  You could increase 4198 up to about 23 grs. or try not more than 20 grs. of 4227 or work in the range of 25-28 grs. of RL-15, IMR4064 or Varget for a bit higher velocity, but it isn't really necessary if your current load shoots consistently. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Maggie Drawers posted this 10 July 2008

Ed -

    Thanks.  Before I try higher velocities I'll work with what I have.

    I truly appreciate your help - and the help of so many others - on this forum; I've read a great deal and learned a whole lot.  Thank you all.

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w30wcf posted this 22 July 2008

M D,

Historically speaking...when the 308284 (now 311284) was introduced in 1905, the recommended loading was 23 grs. of “Lightning". The current equivalent powder in burning rate to “Lightning” is 4198.  The legendary Dr. Walter G. Hudson developed that load primarily for 600 yard target shooting, for which he and Barlow (Ideal Tool Co.) designed the 308284.

As Ed indicated, for 200 yard shooting, your load is fine. Note that the Schutzen boys are in that sam velocity range and they shoot some fantastic groups @ 200. 

w30wcf 

 

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Maggie Drawers posted this 23 July 2008

John,

This is fascinating.  I work in history myself (probably that aids in my attraction to old rifles) but was unaware of the association the Krag has with this bullet and this powder.  I'll certainly work with them both rather than try something else just for the sake of the history involved. 

I need to see what I can do at 600 yards, too.

Thank you.  You've added greatly to my enjoyment of the Krag and its load.

Best regards.

 

 

 

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w30wcf posted this 23 July 2008

M D,

Glad that you got some enjoyment from the information.  If you can find a 2004 Gun Digest, (ebay), it has a neat article by Jim Foral ...."THE HUDSON-KRAG HANDLOADS. Lots of history.  I provided some of the bullet and powder samples.

Here's a thread that has some related info:

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=36914>http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=36914

I'll have to take a look at the 2008 Gun Digest which has another Jim Foral article on DR Hudson. 

The 1906 IDEAL handbook has information by Walter G. Hudson, MD on .30-40 Armory loads with plain based bullets and is the first one to show and have information on the 308284.  Interestingly, it also shows that the 308284 was tested at Sea Girt, New Jersey in 1905 and gave accuracy at 600 yards equivalent to the full service load.  You can purchase a reprint of the 1906 IDEAL Catalog here:

http://www.cornellpubs.com/Templates/Ideal%20No17%201906.htm>http://www.cornellpubs.com/Templates/Ideal%20No17%201906.htm

 

Sincerely,

w30wcf

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Maggie Drawers posted this 23 July 2008

Thank you!  I'll hunt up these references.

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w30wcf posted this 24 July 2008

M D,

I just remembered that I had written an article that appeared in the CBA publication in 2006.................... 

100 Years Ago ”¦”¦..Ideal #308284 and Barlow's Gas Check Cup Back in 1906, readers of Ideal Handbook No. 17,  learned of a new cast bullet innovation ....the “gas check cup",  and the first cast bullet design to use it, Ideal #308284 (now Lyman's 311284) made for the 30 U.S. Army (.30-40 Krag).   In addition, Ideal #308291 (now Lyman's 311291) for the .30-30 / .303 Savage, Ideal #319295 for the .32-40, and for the .38-55, the Ideal 375296 were also illustrated.

The previous year, Ideal had provided bullet samples of .30 U.S. Army (.30-40) cartridges loaded with their 308284's to competitors of the 1905 tournament at Sea Girt, New Jersey  for testing in their Krag rifles.   Lt. Albert S. Jones of the National Rifle Association reported that this new cast bullet, having a copper cup on its base, proved to be as accurate as the full service load at 600 yards. 

But what event led up to the research and development of this new cast bullet device?  A hint of that was noted in Ideal's 1904 manual. Dr. Walter G. Hudson, who was a World Champion Rifle shooter and held many records in his day, had been working on the problem of trying to achieve 1,500 f.p.s. in the .30 U.S. Army (.30-40) with 200+ grain bullets which he felt would give accurate shooting at 600 yards.

Dr./Cpt. Walter Guy Hudson was perhaps the leading Krag shooter in the history of the competition Krag. He was a firing member of the 1902 Palma team, came in second in the Wimbledon Cup a couple of times, and generally was regarded as a champion class rifle competitor, not only with the Schuetzen rifle, but with the military rifle. To this day, he still holds the Schuetzen record of 2308 x 2500.

Beginning in 1901, there was a desperate need for military practice ammunition that was accurate to the mid ranges (600 yards) and Hudson applied himself to the task of perfecting a lead bullet load that would perform out to this range.

The problem he encountered in trying to achieve the 1,500 f.p.s. threshold, was fusion, or gas cutting as we know it today. He tried experimenting with antimonial alloys for stronger bullets, but fusion persisted. He worked with J.H. Barlow of Ideal on bullet design and diameters, even to the point of using a front “gas check” band (front driving band) diameter of .325"(!) but to no avail.

Eventually, Dr. Hudson and Mr. Barlow of Ideal Manufacturing Co. hit upon the idea that a copper alloy spacer to insulate the bullet from the hot powder gases might work. They tried copper discs under plain based bullets, and found that they successfully prevented fusion. Higher velocities were then achieved with no leading.  Further development lead to the cup profile and the first gas checked bullet... Ideal's #308284.

Since the gas checked #308284 worked very well, Mr. Barlow set to work to develop additional gas checked bullets very quickly.  Ideal #308291 for the .30-30 was next. Samples of cartridges loaded to factory velocities with the new bullet designs were sent to the Marlin Firearms Co. and Savage Arms Company for their evaluation.

Marlin responded “We have the pleasure of reporting to you that these appear to be in every way equal to factory loaded ammunition with metal jacketed bullets.“ Savage wrote back that they tested them in the .30-30 and .303 Savage and they compared favorably in accuracy with their jacketed bullets.

By 1909, a total of 15 different gas checked bullets in calibers ranging from the .25   to .38 caliber had been developed and were illustrated in Ideal Handbook No. 19 in that year. When the first Handbook of Cast Bullets was published in 1958, it contained 79 different variations of gas checked bullet designs. Unfortunately, most of these are now obsolete, but, interestingly, the first two that started it all, the 311284 and 311291, are still with us today.     

Barlow's “gas check cupâ€? remained virtually unchanged for 60 + years and was designed to fall from the base of the bullet after it left the muzzle.   Enter Hornady Manufacturing, who engineered a new crimp on gas check designed to stay with the bullet in flight, and the rest shall we say”¦.is history.

 

 

John Kort

3/21/06

 

w30wcf  

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Maggie Drawers posted this 24 July 2008

Thank you, John

This is great material.  I really appreciate you going to all the trouble to dig this out and put it up. 

 

Hugh

 

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AMMOe posted this 19 January 2009

I shoot the 311-284 over 18.5 of 5744 from my Krags and have no problems with stability or accuracy at 200 yards. Love that load. Love that cartridge. As said, the 311-284 is THE Krag bullet. ~AMMOe

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Maggie Drawers posted this 20 January 2009

Thanks AMMOe,

      I've been using 22.5 grs. 4198 and it seems to be doing the job as well as I could hope for.  I thoroughly enjoy the rifle and its been doing well in the vintage military matches.

     Thanks for your input.  I've kept everyone's comments and may do furher experimenting when the weather gets better. 

 

 

 

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madsenshooter posted this 20 January 2009

One thing not mentioned in all of the above, perhaps because we assume it to be SOP by those who cast, is slugging the bore of your Krag.  Out of 6 I had only one with a .308 groove diameter barrel, the majority were .310” and it wasn't from wear, a couple of them were like new.  I think matching the cast bullet diameter to your bore would do more to tighten groups than any powder charge tinkering.  I really enjoyed the stuff contributed above about THE Krag bullet.  As I write this, I am also loading some Krag cartridges with Ideal's 308329 sized .311.  Bullets are cast of a 24BHN alloy and I'm going to try to get around 2000fps out of the 180gr spitzers, using 4227.  The length to the crimping groove matches the neck length of the Krag, perhaps this bullet too came about with the Krag in mind.

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Maggie Drawers posted this 20 January 2009

You make a good point. I did slug the bore....but, now can't remember what it was; and my notes aren't where I thought they ought to be. Hmmmmm..... Need to look into that. Please let us know how your load works out.

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madsenshooter posted this 20 January 2009

I'll do that. In following some of the links above, I've found that I've been nearly repeating some of Dr. Hudson's alloying experiments. The alloy I'm using has a composition of 10%Sn, 14.75%Sb 1/2%As, 1/4%Cu, 74.5% Pb. It casts at 23-24 and with its formulation, should also respond to further heat treating. Always, when I think I'm at the forefront, someone done did it, 100 or more years ago!

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madsenshooter posted this 20 January 2009

Well, one of us, the load or I, weren't up to par today. Since a couple of the bullets hit within an inch of each other at 50yds, I'll take the blame for the rest of the shots that were nowhere near being a group. I know I pulled my head off the stock twice. Good news is, there's no sign of leading in the bore, at 10 degrees the Rooster Red should be nice and stiff! Charge was 26.5gr of 4227 which should yield 2080 or so. Someday I'm going to get around to putting a Miller Kodiak Mount that I have on my Krag for load testing. I just can't see very well through the peep on a 1901 sight. I think the load will do better than what I did today in my haste. Practice, practice, practice....

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Ed Harris posted this 22 January 2009

I think 26.5 of 4227 in the Krag may be a wee bit warm for best accuracy, although it should be safe. I think you may get better groups with a slower powder like 4198 or RL-7. The Krag loads I shoot in my Bannerman sporter are:

154-gr. plainbase - small game and gallery, 7 grs. of Bullseye

154-gr. plainbase - 100 yard target 9 grs. of #2400 or 14 grs. IMR4198

180-205gr. GC - 200 yard target and hunting 14 grs. #2400, or 21 grs. IMR-4198 or 23 grs. RL-7

205-gr. GC - heavy hunting 30 grs. RL-7 or 34 grs. RL-15

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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AMMOe posted this 22 January 2009

I have a 1898 action and sporter stock that I was going to rebarrel into another 25 Krag using a cast off.257 Roberts barrel but I may build a standard 30-40 so I can play around with a wide variety of (smaller diameter) bullets. The Krag is certainly one of my favorite cast bullet cartridges.~AMMOe

PS: I think the 25 Krag is tied with the 25-20 as my favorite 25 cal lead cartridge!

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madsenshooter posted this 24 January 2009

I have a 6mm/30-40AI reamer that some day is going to get together with a heavy Obermeyer barrel I bought for $10 off gunbroker. (Seller was a refuge from ebay, couldn't understand why his barrels weren't bring as much as on ebay).   I just hated stealing the barrel from him!  Can't decide on the action.  Siamese mauser, Krag, P14, 6.5 Arisaka.  At the moment, I'm leaning toward the P14.  I've got the cherrie for the Eagan 24W to use to have a mold made.  Don't you just love those someday things?  I only hope I have enough days to get them all done.

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AMMOe posted this 24 January 2009

I'd skip the Krag due to pressure limitations and the Arisaka is a pain in the keister to rebarrel..and when you're done you've got a clumsy action! (I got hired to rebarrel a pair of 6.5 Arisaka's into 7.62x39. Never again!) The P-i4 is a good choice provided you can lay hands on just the action. Carving up a good milsurp would be a crime at current prices. Another idea: a NEF .243 might work.~Andy

PS: I have a 25 Krag IMP on a P-14. HOT!

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madsenshooter posted this 25 January 2009

Thanks for the input Andy. I think the P-14 would be the way to go. I knew the Arisaka wouldn't be easy to machine, and I'd have to turn the 30-40 rim down. Folks tell me I'd have to modify the Siamese mauser extractor. Though I like the NEF rifles, I want a magazine rifle for this project. The Obermeyer barrel is a monster, weighs nearly 6.5lbs and is 1.22” at the chamber end. Stainless steel, 27 3/8” long, 5R rifling with a lot of use left in it once rechambered. To get back to Krag loads though, I've got some Lee TL bullets that were designed for the 7.62x39 sitting on top of 15grs of Blue Dot that I'm going to give a go sometime soon, hoping for better results than what I got from the 308329. The nose fits in the rifling of the Krag very well, I think it will do better. Don't know if I can get enough lube to hang onto the Lee bullets for a trip down a 30” barrel,m but I'm going to try!

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AMMOe posted this 25 January 2009

I'd be sure interested in hearing the results.~AMMOe

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AMMOe posted this 31 January 2009

Years ago I built a 30-40 Krag on a Krag action using a Douglas AG barrel. Under the duress of a failing marriage the gun was sold to help sponsor a trip for the missus and I about 12 years ago. I have often missed its .308” groove, .300” bore and narrow throat when I'm loading for my other Krags. This rifle loved bullet of .309” especially the RCBS 30-180-SP.

Well, this evening I was speaking to the fellow who bought this rifle and he confessed that he had only shot 20 rounds of factory Remington through it in all those 12 years and, to help offset the purchase of a new Pedersoli Trapdoor, he would be willing to sell it back to me for a slight profit. I paid $200 and found the rifle to look exactly as it had when I delivered it. In the butt were the plastic wrapped Redfield apertures I placed in there before the sale. This rifle isn't fancy but it surely shoots and is a deer killing machine with the right loads.

It isn't often you get a second go round with a good rifle. I am very happy tonight. ~AMMOe:dance

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AMMOe posted this 01 February 2009

I made it out with the Reunited Krag today for 10 shots, at least. It took me 4 shots to find paper and the other six went into an inch and a half. These were the old style 30-180-FN over 42 grains of IMR 4350. Unfortunately, they didn't feed as the flat nose kept hanging up, but it was reassuring to see the gun still shot.~AMMOe

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madsenshooter posted this 09 February 2009

The cold spell finally broke here in NE IN, and I got a chance to try the 15grs of Blue Dot with the Ed Harris designed TL boolit for the 7.62x39 in my Krag.  As mentioned it fits the throat of my Krag very well and I'd estimate velocity at 1500-1600fps.  I got a pretty fair group at 70 yards using the 1901 sight.  Discounting a called flier caused by my preseason flinch, left me with 4 shot group with 1.5” horizontal dispersion and only about .5"vertical dispersion.  51 year old eyes get the blame for the horizontal dispersion.  I'll be stepping the load up a bit next, I've cast some at 25bhn and dip lubed in carnauba red.  I want to get to 2000fps to stay close to the graduations on the 1901 sight.  I had to go to the .285 front blade, the .410 blade supposedly standard with the 1901 sight, has me sitting the peep on the 300 yard mark to get on paper at 70 yards.  The shorter front blade has me below the 100 yard mark where I should be.  I snagged another Kodiak mount off ebay, no excuse for not scoping one or more of my Krags now!

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AMMOe posted this 09 February 2009

That's got the signs of a seriously accurate load! I have never played with “light” bullets in the Krag. I may have to give it another try as I have an RCBS 30-165-SIL which (if I'm remembering correctly) throated up nicely in the Douglas barreled Krag. Thanks for sharing the results. ~AMMOe

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madsenshooter posted this 22 February 2009

Middleweight bout coming soon.  Krag arena, date to be set by the weather and time off work!  Introducing the contestants from left to right, the Eagan MX3-30AR, a tapered boolit design by John Ardito.  He weighs in at 170.2gr, the heavyweight of the group.  In the center is the Belding and Mull 311169 a very old design affectionately known as the “Squibb” boolit, weighing in at 164.9gr.  Finally, the new kid on the block designed by our very own Ed Harris, the Lee  CTL312-1602R.  He weighs in at 157.2gr, the lightweight in the bout. To make things as equal as possible in this 3 boolit competition, all are gas checked, cast with the same 24bhn alloy, sized to .311", lubed with the same Carnauba Red lube, and will be fired with the same charge of 20gr of Blue Dot.  All are seated to touch the rifling and will still function through the magazine.   All will be fired from the same scoped Krag, I've nearly got the old Miller Kodiak Dreamount affixed, and I'll be using a Lyman Alaskan boosted to 8 power.  Anyone care to pick the winner?

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madsenshooter posted this 19 March 2009

Krag Scout Mount.  In a previous post, I had posted about using a Miller Kodiak Mount to put a scope on my Krag. Since then I found a fellow selling a scout mount on ebay that allows you to put a red dot or LER pistol scope on your Krag rifle. 2 of the 6 he had to sell arrived today, and I've attached some pictures. All you do is remove your rear sight and replace it with the mount he is making. For those of you shy on screws, he is even having the odd threaded Krag sight screws made to go with the mounts! It works with the 1901 handguard with no modifications needed, I haven't tried it with other handguards yet. He is also loading the Hornady 150gr BTSP @2300fps and selling them @$118/100rnds. The load appears to bust the myth that short bullets are not accurate in the Krag as he has shot a .45” 50 yard group with the load. After April 1st check him out: http://www.kraghaus.com/>http://www.kraghaus.com  Fellows name is Peter and he restores sporterized Krags.  Looks to be a good aid for those of us whose eyesight isn't  what it used to be!

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LWesthoff posted this 19 March 2009

In 1945, while I was home on shore leave, I bought a “sporterized” Krag. That was my first high powered rifle. (During the war it was impossible to find a commercial center fire rifle for sale anyplace.) That was my hunting rifle until sometime in the '60's, when I bought a new Herter U9 (BSA action)'06. I kept the Krag for old time's sake, and when the NRA Cast Bullet Handbook came out I decided to see what the Krag would do with a cast bullet. I still have one of the targets, shot 5/1/88 at 100 yards off an improvised bench rest with a 3X scope, 28.5 gr. 4064, Lyman 311291 cast of lino, with a dacron filler. 10 rounds in 3.3 inches; 8 of 'em in 1.4 inches with one out high right and one out low left. Not good enough for a “screamer” patch, but plenty good for minute of coyote and/or California blacktail and/or Montana muley. (After reading about chamber ringing, I gave up on the dacron filler.)

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madsenshooter posted this 22 April 2009

Here's another load for my Krag.  Belding and Mull 311169, which was giving me fits until I slowed down and switched to magnum primers (all I have).  Charge is 12.5gr of Blue Dot, Rem 9 1/2M primer.  Boolit is sized to .311 for my .310 bore.  Range is 85 yards.  This will be my load for embarrassing some of black rifle guys! 5 shot group, 3 in a cloverleaf, the other 2 touching less than an inch away.

:}

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AMMOe posted this 22 April 2009

You done us Krag shooters Proud, son! Keep it up!~AMMOe

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Ed Harris posted this 23 April 2009

Madsenshooter.... I sure hope that you were NOT shooting FIFTEEN grains of Red Dot, and that you mistyped.

"The Load” of 13 grs. of Red Dot is intended for modern strong actions like the Springfield and 98 Mausers, and is too much for a weaker action like a Krag. In the .303 Lee Enfields I would use the full 13 grs. only in the later Long Branch and Savage No. 4 rifles and not in other wartime No. 4s or in any No.1s.

In a Krag I'd cut back to no more than 8 grs. of Red Dot. In mine I like 13 grs. of #2400 with GC bullets or 7 grs. of Bullseye with plainbases.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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madsenshooter posted this 23 April 2009

I appreciate the concern Ed, I'm using Blue Dot, which isn't far from 2400 in the scheme of things. Guess it's a little harder to light though. Only thing Red was the lube. My Krag has been set up, apparently by an armorer, with the safety lug touching the receiver for a little added safety. When I got it, I knew someone had once had their hands on it that knew what they were doing. The bolt body is an old 92 with the uncut safety lug. Still I take it easy on her.

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Ed Harris posted this 24 April 2009

My Krag, a Bannerman Sporter, is set up the same as yours. Texas Flyboy has another. Have seen others featured in Gun Digest articles, there are alot of them around. Would sure be nice to see how many we could gather in one place for a match one day. How many people on this forum have vintage Krag sporters?

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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madsenshooter posted this 24 April 2009

The bolt in mine must've been specially made, or selected. Even if I use it in another rifle, the safety lug bears without leaving excess headspace. I'm a little leery of swapping it though, I read a post on Culver's old forum about a rifle that was cracked where the safety lug bears on the receiver. Someone had taken too much off the locking lug and the safety lug was taking all the force. I have ran across one brittle receiver too, in the 13,000 range. Shame, it had the only .308 groove diameter barrel of my 6 Krags.

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AMMOe posted this 24 April 2009

I don't know how “vintage” my original barreled Krag Sporter is, but it appears to have been done in the 50's. Very 30's styling but the sights are definitely 50's.

All this Krag talk makes me wish I had my original, Neidner-built .25 Neidner-Krag rifle back! Had a Sedgley Sporter Krag once upon a time. It was an elegant rifle. I sold it to help put my daughter through school. A good investment, I guess!~AMMOe

PS: My Sedgley was lapped to the lug as well....

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madsenshooter posted this 25 April 2009

Among my 6 Krags I have a 92/96 that has been sporterized. Barrel is 24", the stock has been pretty heavy sanded, making it a very sleek rifle. Has a Rice bolt mounted peep and a Williams hooded front sight. With a Hornady 123gr .310 V-Max over 22.2gr of 4227 it shoots groups like the one above. I have a scout mount for it too, but I like the circle within a circle peep. It'll be my grandson's in a few years.

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