30 Doggie Info

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  • Last Post 28 April 2009
Crooked Creek posted this 12 April 2008

I tried this topic in the Bench Rest forum with no reaction, and now I really think this is the right place for the question anyway.....I'll eventually learn.

In the mid 1980's I aquired an early Shilen DGA bench rifle that had a 28” barrel chambered for the 30 Doggie, with an 11” twist. I made up 30 cases (which I still have, and some have not yet been fired) but did not play with it enough to see what it would do. As I recall, I heard back then that the cartridge was developed as a cast bullet cartridge. At the time, I was getting involved in making 7MM and 30 cal. jacketed bullets, so I kinda laid the cast bullet activities to the side. I shot a few cast bullets and some 150 grain jacketed bullets through it. Any records I may have had are hiding somewhere, and the only thing I found was a piece of paper (from a range session ?) in the box with the cases that indicates 41 grains of W748 (obviously a jacketed bullet load) as being “the best", whatever that meant. Since I was working with a 30x47 HBR hunter class rifle as my testing platform for the 30 cal. jacketed bullets, I pulled the 30 Doggie barrel from the DGA and replaced it with a Shilen 12” twist 7MM barrel, chambered for a shortened 7MM IMHSA, for testing light (90 to 118 grain) 7MM bullets I was also making.

A long explanation for why I'm asking the question I posted elswhere, but here goes again. I'm now thinking about putting that 30 Doggie barrel back on the DGA and, while I'm not opposed to experimenting from scratch by myself (quite rewarding, actually), I thought I would see if anyone had any info, load data, archival data, or direct experience with the cartridge. Also, to try to validate that it was, in fact, developed as a specific cast bullet cartridge or was it an early attempt at a 30 cal. bench rest cartridge and, perhaps even, who developed it. I don't recall any reference to it (FS articles, match reports, questions/letters in FS) back in the 80's when I was first a CBA member, and Ardito was doing his thing with short 30's.

I've been “tickling” every internet site (all kinds of word combinations!) I can think of, with the only success being that C&H does have it in their die listing. No load data, no reamer listing, no chamber dimension drawings, no forum discussion (yet!).

It is an interesting looking cartridge with a .435” long neck and overall length of 1.875", so it's 3/8” longer than the 1 1/2” Barnes overall, but I'm not sure of neck length differences as I sit here typing, I'll have to check later.

So, anyone out there, old timers (?) know anything about this little guy ? 

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EdS posted this 25 April 2009

I own and shoot two rifles chambered in 30 Doggie.  The version I have is nothing more or less than a tight-neck (0.331") .308 match chamber reamer run in 0.2” shorter than standard.  No changes to shoulder angle, taper, etc.  I make brass using a shortened .308 FL size die.  One pass to form, trim to length, turn neck, start using. 

It is my understanding that it was intended from the beginning to meet Hunter Benchrest class requirements - case must hold at least as much powder as the standard 30-30, generally accepted to be 45 grains of WATER absolutely full.

I use jacketed bullets from 115 to 125 grains, primarily hand made benchrest bullets from Euber, BIB, etc. in my Hunter benchrest rifles.  For me, the best powder with these bullet weights has been V-135.  Primers are Federal or CCI match.  I seat the bullets to a “light jam” in the rifling.

I'll be happy to share more info with you if you are interested.

Ed

Gettysburg, PA

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Crooked Creek posted this 25 April 2009

Yes Ed, I would like to get more info. Since my original post above I have found a little more info on the 30 Doggie. While my barrel still has a light marking (on the bottom, which should have been a clue) indicating a 30 Doggie chambering, the chamber cast I made does not match the 30 Doggie print I have. It appears it was rechambered using a reamer having a sharper than 308 Win. shoulder angle, more like a 300 Savage or the 30x47 HBR (30 degree). If I take my 30x47 HBR full length forming/sizing die and run a 300 Savage case all the way in until the base is flush with the bottom of the die, it is just about a perfect fit for the chamber without trimming. So, it basically looks like an untrimmed 30x47 HBR case with the shoulder pushed back maybe 1/8” or so. When I get a little free time over the next few days I'll get some photos comparing it to the 30x47 and 308 Win. It should be a nice cast bullet case, but does have more capacity than the 308 x 1 1/2” or 30 BR. I also swage some 30 cal. bullets (135 and 150 gr.) that I might give another try in it. More later. Roger Allen

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EdS posted this 25 April 2009

Your chamber sounds like an improvement on the basic .300 Savage, giving better neck length for wider bullet selection/seating depths.  This could well have been done to create a Hunter BR case.  One “issue” I've always had with my two 30 Doggies, is the reamer was designed for (I believe) 168 gr. Sierra Match Kings.  The much shorter 115-125 gr. flat-base, benchrest bullets are barely in the neck when lightly jammed in the rifling.

What would you like to know about my Doggies?

Ed

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Crooked Creek posted this 25 April 2009

Ed, here are some case capacity comparisons I made using AA2460 powder. I didn't use water because I wanted to check both to the base of the neck and case full, and I could see the powder better at the base of the neck. I know there is no correlation to water or other powders, or even a different lot of AA2460, but for my purposes, it gave me a direct comparison. Using a 308 Win case as my 100 % starting point and a 22 BR case (should be pretty close to a 30 BR on the base of the neck number) as the lower end, I looked at the comparisons in both directions as plus and minus %. I'll see if this makes sense:

1) 308: base of neck 49.7 gr. ; full 55.95 gr. ; 100% and 100%

2) My 30 Whatever: b.o.n. 39.7 gr. ; f. 48.9 gr. ; 79% and 86.5% of 308

3) 22 BR: b.o.n. 34.3 gr. ; f. 36.5 gr. ; 69% and 65.2% of 308, and 87.5% and 75.4% of my 30 Whatever.

I think this paints the picture, so I won't bore anyone with the plus %. Here are a couple of comparison pictures.

I guess I started the thread looking for loading data and experience with the 30 Doggie, but it seems what I have is going to be somewhat larger than the Doggie, so that is most likely a bust. Do you have any capacity numbers (water, even?) on your cases?

Mine is on a Shilen single shot action, 2 oz. trigger, with a 3” forearm BR stock and a 28” lg. x 11” twist barrel that would put it in a hvy. varmint class. It seems to me that it was perhaps build as a cast bullet specific gun rather than an attempt to optimize the case capacity for Hunter Class. Although, based on the above capacity, it should make a fine Hunter Class cartridge in the correct rifle. I may give it a try with both cast and my jacketed bullets to see what it will do. Thanks for your input Ed.

 Roger Allen

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CB posted this 25 April 2009

By the looks of it it looks like a 30x44 formed from 300 Savage that hasn't been trimmed. I shoot a 30x47 in cast bullet matches with a 17 twist Shilen barrel and I think what you're going to find is that the 11 twist is going to limit your velocity. I shoot 40 grs of 135 with a 158 gr bullet at around 2600 fps give or take since it's a work in progress but if what I believe will happen happens you're going to be limited to between 1900 and 2000 fps with the 11 twist. If it were my gun with that case I'd probably start at around 30 grs of 135 with cast bullets and work up looking for best accuracy in the mid 1900 fps.

I'm interested in what you find out so if you do decide to shoot cast please keep me informed if it's not too much trouble.

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Crooked Creek posted this 26 April 2009

Hi Pat, I could have sworn I replied to this this morning, but it must have gotten lost in the sending (??). I too thought it looked like a 30 X 44 with a long (untrimmed 300 Savage) neck. If you look closely at the chamber cast photo, you'll see it has a pretty long throat. I'm thinking the neck and throat length and 11” twist all together point toward the intention of shooting heavy cast bullets at moderate velocities. I have quite a few 30 cal. molds and definitely plan to shoot cast bullets in it, so yes, I will keep you informed as to the results. I have a lot on my plate right now, so it my be a while, so keep checking back. I may try some of the jacketed bullets I make to see what they and it will do. I too have a 30 X 47 HBR Hunter Class rifle that I may give cast bullets a try in. Being a neighbor from Illinois, have you ever shot at the St. Louis Bench Rest Club facility north of Wright City, MO ? Roger

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CB posted this 26 April 2009

Hi Roger I've only shot cast bullet BR so have never been to the St. Louis club. I do have a 6PPC barrel for this gun but after breaking it in I put it aside and never used it again. You might try miking the ball seat on one of your chamber casts. If it's .310 or so the gun was probably set up for cast if it's .3085 it was probably for jacketed. If it mikes .3085 with the 11 twist maybe whoever had it chambered had one of the heavier Sierra Matchkings in mind with that long neck and throat. Wildcatting's a lot of fun and people come up with all kinds of ideas.

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Paul Pollard posted this 28 April 2009

Pat,

Do you think that twist rate limits how much velocity a bullet of a certain hardness will withstand? Is RPM the limiting factor? Has anyone figured out the RPM limit vs BHN?

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CB posted this 28 April 2009

Paul,

 Now you're going to get me in all kinds of trouble but here's my theory on velocity and twist in 30 caliber rifles using an alloy up to the job. I think that starting at around 1850 fps with a 10 twist you can up the velocity about 100fps for every inch reduction in twist and still get the best accuracy. The reason for me believing this is not only because of my own experiences with 10, 11, 13, 14, and 17 twist 30 caliber barrels but by studying what the hot shooters in CBA competition are using for twist and the velocity they're running. I don't consider BNH into the equation because I assume that if you're pushing the velocity up there your using something hard enough to get the job done. I see absolutely no reason to try to push a 12 BNH bullet at 1900 fps or to try to use obturation as your friend, except maybe in BP cartridge which I don't know much about. To my way of thinking obturation, if it happens, isn't a good thing since it's taking a bullet that you spend time trying to get perfect and changing it and trhere's no way to know if it's changing it the same every time.  Don't spin it any faster than necessary and use a bullet hard enough to stop or minimize obturation and I think you'll get the best accuracy. If you do the math on RPM you'll find that all of the better shooters using 30 caliber are running at or under 130,000 RPM no matter what twist they're using. I'm starting to think, and one of these days will put it to the test, that you could find the best load right off the bat by picking a suitable powder and going for a certain velocity.

 I also think that as the caliber goes down the limit goes up and visa versa.

 Tom Gray wrote up an article years ago about barrels being twist limited and I for one agree with him 100%.

Pat

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Paul Pollard posted this 28 April 2009

Pat,

So the formula for velocity would be: Twist x 130,000 divided by 720.

So for a 17 twist, you should be shooting at 3069 fps. Maybe you should add some more powder to your 30x47. Don't be a wimp!

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CB posted this 28 April 2009

For a little useless knowledge to find the RPM you're shooting at the formula is 720 divided by twist x velocity.

 Notice I said at or below 130,000 for the 30 calibers, mostly below. This thing beats me up bad enough as it is without trying to go faster so you're absolutely right there is a wimp factor involved. Don't forget to factor in that I'm a wimp.

Notice though that most of the good 10 twist shooters are in the 1850 range, the 11 twist in the mid 19s, the 12s 2050, the 14s 2250, my 17 seems best around 2650, the 18s at 2750. I'm not including myself in with the best shooters by any means but just using my barrel as an example. Could all just be a coincidence but there does seem to be a trend there.

My 6.5 shot its best at 157,000 rpm with an 8 twist so with your 14 twist 222 you should keep using the monotyope or HTWWs, a P-Wad, fill it up with about 23 grs of 335 and  Rem 7 1/2s, and pour the coals to that thing. Run her up to about 3100 and see what happens. Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead!!

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Crooked Creek posted this 28 April 2009

Pat and Paul,

 Shouldn't the discussion include the length of the bullet as a significant component in the twist/RPM/velocity = stability equation, or am I missing something ?

 Roger

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CB posted this 28 April 2009

I pretty much stick to Greenhill when choosing a bullet and haven't had any problems. What I'm talking about doesn't seem to have anything to do with stability, or at least doesn't seem to since by the way people are shooting the bullets must be stable. I think it's more about spinning a bullet past a point where the imperfections cause a decrease in accuracy. Is there some actual rpm number you can apply to this? I don't know but from researching the match reports for a number of years and my own personal experience I have to believe there is and for the 30 cal I think it's around 130,000 rpm. Go under and you won't have a problem, go much over and you seem to.

This is all just my theory on the subject and maybe someone will be able to shoot it out of the water. None of this is ground breaking because both Berger and Lilja talk about overspinning a bullet on their websites and Hornady used to have a little about it in one of their loading manuals. I'd really like to hear Fred Sinclairs thoughts on the subject.

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Paul Pollard posted this 28 April 2009

The rpm theory sounds as good as any. Just for the record, my one “internet group” with the .222 at 3012 fps was .856". The rpm was way past your maximum, about 155000 rpm. The next group at the same load was 1.5". I'm not going to hot rod it that much because I don't have a berm that big. It seems that past a point, with too much velocity, I can't even hit the paper. Of course, in matches I've been known to miss the paper quite often.

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CB posted this 28 April 2009

Paul,

I wrote that I thought 130,000 rpm was the range for 30 cal bullets and that I thought smaller calibers would giveth and larger calibers would taketh away. My 6.5 was spinning 157,000 with the 8 twist barrel and didn't shoot too bad. What powder did you use to get 3000 fps? I think when you get up in the high velocity range you have to start loading a powder that traditionally works good with jacketed bullets. Odd thing though is that with my 6.5 with a 170 gr bullet at 1750 in a PPC case H4350 was the powder it liked, go figure. I've never had a .222 but have always found the best accuracy with a .223 and jacketed using H335.

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runfiverun posted this 28 April 2009

you can push the 10 twist up some with some trial. i seem to be able to hit about 1950 with some tricks. pat the pick a velocity and work with it does certainly work. all i had to do was try a couple of different powders till i found it for each rifle. the same boolit in the 308 the 30-40 krag and the 7.5x55. one likes i4895 one h4895 and h322 in the other. all right near 1950. wifes 0-6 hates this boolit though,and i can smoke that boolit from the 12 twist 30-30 at 2250 and have excellent accuracy. the longest i-net discussion i have ever seen was in several parts over about 7-8 months and centered about the rpm thing.

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