Bullets: Casting the Jackets In Place

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swampdoc posted this 22 February 2008

:fireSeveral months ago I modified a LEE mold so that I could cast home-made jackets into place. I de-rim 44 mag cases by inverting my trim die in the press and pushing  the annealed case through the die. I clean up the jacket with an outside de-burring tool. Am I the only one that has done this? I'd enjoy hearing anyones ideas on this topic. I'm also experimenting with 40 s&w and 9mm cases. panthertracks @ hotmail.com

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JimmyDee posted this 24 February 2008

I've read of putting rings of soft-drawn tubing in the bands on either side of grease grooves...  From that, and what you posted, it sound like you're making jackets for 45s from 44 cases.  Is that it?  Did you bore out the part of the die that creates grease grooves and are you fitting lengths of 44 cases in there?

Are you using the head of the case, too?  I can't imagine how you get alloy in the mould, if you are...

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CB posted this 24 February 2008

swampdoc,

Could you post a pic of one of your CBs, to help us see what you mean?

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Molly posted this 28 February 2008

swampdoc wrote: Several months ago I modified a LEE mold so that I could cast home-made jackets into place. This is a very old trick, that has been written up in the Am. Rifleman a time or two in (I think) the 1940 and the 1960's (or so).  As I recall, the rifleman articles emphasized 30 cal (esp. 30-06), because it was so easy to form jackets by cutting lengths of 0.3125 copper tubing.  To use, bore out an appropriate mold (ie, usually one with a spitzer nose) to hold the tubing.  Copper heats quickly, so by the time you drop a length in the mold, close the blocks and the sprue cutter, it was up to casting temperature.  Pour the lead, cut the sprue, and open the blocks. Didn't even have to bang on the handles to get the bullet out.  The new bullet could be loaded with jacketed data of the same weights, and reportedly shot quite well.

I played with an offset of this, where I cut short rings from the tubing, and dropped them in the mold.  The bearing surfaces were still copper, and they shot fine, but dealing with the tiny rings was more than my ham sized fingers wanted to do.  Even with tweezers, there was a lot of ouchy-burny.  I decided to stick with ordinary cast bullets, and if I needed jacketed bullets, I'd buy them.

But it does bring to mind another similar trick I read in a magazine (I think Guns & Ammo) back in the sixties (or so).  Someone noticed that the diameter of the pistol case for one caliber was generally a close match for the bore diameter for the next caliber up - or at least one of the larger calibers.  For example, the base of the .38 Spl, the 357 Mag, .357 Max and a .222 / .223 is 0.375, just right for the bore of a .375 Win.  The base of a .25 ACP fits the bore of a .270 nicely, and offers a bore riding nose to boot.  The 30-40 and the 303 Brit have a base dia of 0.458, jest right for a lot of 45 cal rifles, and so on.  There are other examples if you want to dig them out.  You can even swage a larger base down to a smaller caliber.

Point is, that with the right mind warpage, these are heavy duty bullet jackets if you put the right combination together.  To convert into jacketed bullets, trim to a length suitable for the weight you want, and clean and polish the cases, inside and out.  BE BLOODY SURE IT DOES NOT HAVE A LIVE PRIMER!!!! Wipe the inside with a little flux on a Q-tip, and heat up a dipper of lead with a propane torch.  Keep the torch lit, because it could come handy if you pour too slowly.  If you're not way ahead of me, all you do is pour the case full of lead and set it aside to cool.

When cool, dig through your dies and find some combination that will swage the nose into an acceptable ogive.  Drill a weep hole in it so you will have reasonably uniform weights.  Or have  a machinist buddy turn something out.  When you're this far out in left field, anything goes.  Suggested starting data is based on 80 - 90 % of published data for this weight.  Remember, these are ungodly thick jackets, and will probably give excessive pressures with full loads.

This is one heck of a lot of work, but it is something to do with those split neck cases, and can be considerable entertainment for the guy who thinks he's seen and done it all.

Enjoy!

Molly

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RicinYakima posted this 28 February 2008

This is a “hearsay” story, but I trust the man who told me.

When Ian Smith was the President of Rhodesia, and cut off from the rest of the world for mistreating their natives, some of the “contract security specialists” were having a problem with big game animals during their work. Ammunition was scarce except for 7.62 NATO, that was not effective for the game problem. So, they took old 303 cases and filed the rims off and cut the cases off at 1 1/2 inches. They filled the cases with wheelweights and loaded them in 458 Win Mag cases base forward. They were reported to be fairly good solids for dealing with big animals at close range.

FWIW, Ric

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Molly posted this 29 February 2008

RicinYakima wrote: So, they took old 303 cases and filed the rims off and cut the cases off at 1 1/2 inches. They filled the cases with wheelweights and loaded them in 458 Win Mag cases base forward. They were reported to be fairly good solids for dealing with big animals at close range.

FWIW, Ric

Hi Ric,

You know, I believe every word of it.  It oughta work like gangbusters.  There are a lot of ingenious solutions that shooters have come up with over the years.

When I was a paint chemist, I had lots of access to various grades of commercial nitrocellulose fibers normally used for lacquers.  It has less nitrogen than guncotton, but it has a MUCH finer configuration.  More like a wad of cotton than a gunpowder pellet.  I got curious, and took a pocketful home.  I dried it out (it comes wet with alcohol for reasons not pertinent here) and loaded it like Bullseye in one round.  Went bang, but didn't seem to have any real enthusiasm, so I added more for the next shot.  More bang, still not a whole lot.  I had to take a trip, so I left the rest of it with my dad, who carried on.  Later, he said that he thought it might be possible to get enough of it in a 45 Colt case to generate high pressure, but it was so darn fluffy, he couldn't push it down well enough to seat the slug. 

Sort of a modern day version of the early shooters who ran out of gunpowder for reloading their shells, and ended up cutting movie film (it was NC in those days - isn't now) into tiny strips that they could stuff into their big cases - possibly a forerunner of Cordite.  Worked anyhow. 

I've been in similar situations and used everything from coal mine blasting powder to match heads.  I didn't exactly get magnum ballistics, but you wouldn't want to stand in front of the muzzle!  For that matter, you wouldn't want to take one at 100 yards either! 

I haven't personnally tried it, but I've heard of fertilizer being used to eke out FFg.  Report was that it worked fairly well, and left the bore uncommonly clean, but I'd urge considerable caution with this one.  Fertilizer is more of an explosive than a propellent - as any farm kid can tell you.

Molly

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CB posted this 29 February 2008

Molly wrote: You know, I believe every word of it.  It oughta work like gangbusters.  There are a lot of ingenious solutions that shooters have come up with over the years. Ingenious solutions? Some are more like ridiculous improvabilities. There are those out there with their attention focus on capitalizing on the frugalogistics of shooting, rather than the actual aspects of shooting. (I knew a guy who saved all his cleaning patches and washed them to use again. Said they worked better the more times they were washed!)

On the line of Molly's enhanced cotton for a gunpowder substitution, I wonder if a frugalist has ever suggested capturing (in science terms) the homosapiuos flatulence gases to charge firearm cartridges? From what I understand, the homosapien flatus could contain from 20-90% Nitrogen, 0-50% Hydrogen, 0-20% Methane. Where is Joe, he could keep this in scientific details better than I?  Like: How to capture the gas? How to test and rate the gas? What diet provides the highest content of Nitrogen?

Hey, this isn't meant to be a slam against you guys or anybody, just my idea of twisted humor.  :D   .................Dan

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CB posted this 29 February 2008

Gheezh Dan... That borders on twisted... I can see the long winter is really getting to you.

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RicinYakima posted this 29 February 2008

Dan,

First, you have to stand on your head and put a graduated cylinder in the gas source. We could seal the source with melted beeswax and Felix lube. After a while we will have an idea of the volumns we are dealing with. Then we can capture the fuel in the cylinder and maybe take off the lightest 25%, as that would be the natural gas and Hydrogen.

We will have to add some oxygen to burn it, maybe from an oxygen acetelene welder. I haven't figured out how to keep it in the case while seating bullets, but we could seal the primers with nail polish and bullets with tar.

For a fuel source, I would nominate catfish, southern backed beans with a side of grits.

What do you think?

Ric

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CB posted this 29 February 2008

Gheezh Jeff....Lighting farts in the locker room was a favorite pastime when I was a kid! Didn't everybody do that?

Ric, I'm not sure? I figure something like beer with sauerkraut covered balut?  

Anyway, I didn't mention this just out of sick humor. I was having fun with my nephew's potato cannon a few years ago, shooting plastic bottles half full a water about 300yds. He was charging the chamber with a butane gas cylinder. I figure that ought to work for firearm cartridges also for gallery loads, but never tried it.  Propane, butane and the such are heavier than its surrounding atmosphere, so it oughta stay down in the cartridge?  Better yet would probably be to run a stem in through the primer pocket of a cartridge with a bullet already seated and try to purge the gas into it. Then hurry and seat the primer?  Ric, is this a “hearsay” story too. .>  ...........Dan

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CB posted this 01 March 2008

Cant say I ever did that... Must have lead a very sheltered life. Have made a potato cannon or two in my day, tennis ball cannon, but the best was the citrus cannon! The organges would obturate and really seal well in the pvc tubing. A 4 in diameter orange would take out a garage door using liter fluid for fuel. We were known to blown the neighbor hood bullies off their bikes if ya timed it just right. Made a nice splat when they hit.. Ah the days of youth! Fond memories indeed!

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JimmyDee posted this 01 March 2008

Ah, spud guns...  not too off-topic, I hope.

Trying to improve shot-to-shot consistency, I made one that could be charged with metered volumes of propane and oxygen.  Made a little coring tool for cutting uniform projectiles.  Tried a variety of materials for projectiles.  Punched round holes in 1/2” plywood with plastic bag-patched frozen potatoes...

Do you think, as someone said on another thread, we should “add a new class?"

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kansas posted this 14 April 2014

I have tried the cartridge case full of lead trick several times and with a lot of fine tuning. You get bullets that do not look too bad but they are not very accurate. Not sure why, I never could get enough accuracy to make them worth the effort. If in a real pinch it does work. There is a Youtube video that shows an elaborate mold for .223 bullets, they work but the guy only shoots at a 5 gallon can at short range and he never talks about a group!

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 30 December 2014

kansas wrote: I have tried the cartridge case full of lead trick several times and with a lot of fine tuning. You get bullets that do not look too bad but they are not very accurate. Not sure why, I never could get enough accuracy to make them worth the effort. If in a real pinch it does work. There is a Youtube video that shows an elaborate mold for .223 bullets, they work but the guy only shoots at a 5 gallon can at short range and he never talks about a group!
Casting into a ctg case usually traps air inside making the projo unbalanced.  Pressing a cylinder of lead in is more better.  

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onondaga posted this 30 December 2014

Still no pictures of the bullets, no description of steps to follow for trying a method and no pictures of shot targets with the bullets. Credibility  of the whole concept is waning since 2008.

Gary

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rbuck351 posted this 15 October 2015

I make jacketed bullets for my 41mag using empty 40 S$W cases. First anneal them then run them through a 410 sized die. Clean them then pick a sizing die such as 243 or 22jet depending on how much taper you want on the nose. Remove the decapper rod and make a rod with flange that will fit in your press ram. Push the case into the sizer die to form an open point then knock back out with a small rod. You need to make 2 more pieces. 1. a piece of 7/8x14 threaded rod or bolt ground or machined flat on one end. 2. A rod with flange that will fit on top of one of you shell holders with the rod going in the primer punch hole in the shell holder to keep it in place. Now heat up your lead keeping some of your prepped cases on a hot plate or the rim of your bottom pour pot. Set the rod in the shell holder in your press ram with a prepped case on the rod. Lift to the top of the press stroke and screw the flat end of the 7/8x14 rod in the press, flat end down, until it touches the case. Now grab a preheated case with pliers, quickly overfill it with melted lead, place it on the press ram and stroke it to the top flattening off the meplat of your new bullet. You can make 35cal bullets from 223, 30cal from 5.7x28. I have only tested the 41s so far and a 270gr at 1200fps from my 41 is shooting about 3” at 50 yds. Not spectacular accuracy but some of that could easily be me.

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Artful posted this 21 January 2016

375 cal - 240 grn http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/Boolit/NEI2403752cavcoppertubejacket_zps4caa1291.jpg.html>http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rowdyfisk/media/FAL/Boolit/NEI375293J2cav6_zps655f3d46.jpg.html>

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mckg posted this 22 January 2016

Thank you Artful.

What kind of fouling do you get with the tubing?

An Australian shooter once ranted on an other forum about some locally made JHP's, which had been made with copper tubing and gave him lots of cleaning to do.

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R. Dupraz posted this 22 January 2016

1

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John Alexander posted this 22 January 2016

TRK wrote:

"Casting into a ctg case usually traps air inside making the projo unbalanced.  Pressing a cylinder of lead in is more better."

True, but bullet makers have figured out some way to press it in there and bond lead to jacket or ???  That probably involves heat, pressure and a flux.  Does anybody know?

John

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John Alexander posted this 22 January 2016

mckg wrote:Thank you Artful.

What kind of fouling do you get with the tubing?

An Australian shooter once ranted on an other forum about some locally made JHP's, which had been made with copper tubing and gave him lots of cleaning to do.

The original Barnes bullets made by Fred in the 1950s used copper tubing for jackets. I never noticed excessive metal fouling.

John 

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mckg posted this 23 January 2016

Thank you John.

About metal bonding, I once pulled a 357 bullet out and could see three electric-like spots equally spaced in the case. I thought it was some form of “magic” crimp. They were very circular and not smeared when the bullet was seated.

Car makers use high voltage to bond chassis parts together; the current goes through two elements and welds them at the contact point. Now I'm wondering if you couldn't kill two birds with the process: bond a lead core and secure the bullet.

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