7.62 x 54 Magic Load Needed

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  • Last Post 22 March 2008
linoww posted this 11 February 2008

I have been getting a local guy started shooting cast in a couple of Finn.  Mosin  Nagant rifles.They have good bores but lo....ng throats.I have been using the 311284 and NEI 47B.He has them scoped and we sometimes get 1.5” groups. it seems many could be better but there is alot of verticical.There are times when he gets 4 to go into 3/4- 1/2” only to have one drop high or low to ruin it.Load is 22.0 of 4759.Bullets are linotype and .312 diameter body,nose in ,302 and barely engraves.Tried a 200g tapered bullet and no luck at all.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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RicinYakima posted this 11 February 2008

Geo.

Even the heavy barrel MN's have thin barrels that are sensitive to bedding. With that said, I have had better luck with the lighter loads. My better loads are around 14.0 grains of 2400 or 17 grains of SR4759.

Ric

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CB posted this 11 February 2008

George,

Do you tip the muzzle up each time you load?  Powder position could do that with 4759. 

Make sure the CB isn't loaded out too far. If the bullet is pushed back when loaded, it may not be pushed back to the same length every time.

Bag set-up and rest is real touchy will milsurps rifles, so both of you ought to try shooting it and see what happens. Hope this helps...........Dan

 

Ric is right, you are probably up to 1,850+ fps and that is harder to control with the light barrels and rifle. Whenever I try to go up from 1,600fps or so, things git a little crazy with wild shots..:riflebr:

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linoww posted this 11 February 2008

I have gone through all you guys have mentioned and if baffles me why it doesn't shoot as well as it should. It really seems to shoot better with the hotter load and that is strange??.He started with 16.0 and it only got better the closer to 20 grains.

This guy is a former Hunter BR shooter and a careful wind doper and bag shooter so i am doubting it to be the “loose nut behind the stock"

The guns are bedded and the barrels relieved up front. I just wondered if the bullets need to be something like 315/303 or something. I haven't slugged the throat or taken a chamber cast, but maybe that is next. Another interesting thing is the lighter loads have the neck coming out “goofy all swelled &  bulged" Due to the extractor pulling the case off to one side?

He has yet to try 2400 but I hope he will. It works well without having to tip the muzzle. of course i shoot 4759 and 5744 without tipping and have never had a noticeable improvement in accuracy. I shake the case to level the powder to get it even and let it go at that. Velocity usually is a bit higher when i tip the muzzle though.

 

George

 

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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JeffinNZ posted this 11 February 2008

Try pressure pointing the barrel at the muzzle and mid way top and bottom.  ALL my Lee Enfields (LE), with their skinny barrels, shoot best with barrels pressure pointed and held firmly in the stock.  I really lock the barrel down tight.  Though the MN is not a two piece stock like the LE you may find the same principle works.

Cheers from New Zealand

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linoww posted this 11 February 2008

JeffinNZ wrote: Try pressure pointing the barrel at the muzzle and mid way top and bottom.  ALL my Lee Enfields (LE), with their skinny barrels, shoot best with barrels pressure pointed and held firmly in the stock.  I really lock the barrel down tight.  Though the MN is not a two piece stock like the LE you may find the same principle works.

I'll give that a try.Maybe floating it was a bad idea?? I have a P-17 Enfield that has good pressure up front that shoots well.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 11 February 2008

linoww wrote: I just wondered if the bullets need to be something like 315/303 or something. I haven't slugged the throat or taken a chamber cast, but maybe that is next.   If yer not sure what the opening of the throat is, that might do it. The nose fit is good that you have now if it barely engraves. You need to match diameter to diameter so the base will not get knocked off center with say .002” play (.314"). Try shooting 10-shot groups and see what the pattern is, that is 4in, 1out, 3in, 2out or what? If you get a random 10-shot group you're not having a 'flyer' problem...............Dan

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argie1891 posted this 12 February 2008

I have a 91/30 finn capture. it likes lyman 311284 sized .314 with 12 gr. of unique. seat the bullet out as far as you can. I know my loads are boring as i use 12 gr. of unique in almost everything except the 45/70 13 gr. seems to work better in it. I have shot many 2 inch groups with it and that is as good as i can shoot with the crude sighting system on the 91/30. argie1891

if you think you have it figured out then you just dont understand

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Ed Harris posted this 12 February 2008

I have a couple of these and while they are finicky with loads, they shoot well once you find the right combination.  The skinny barrels must not contact the handguards.  Shim to provide a support under the chamber, ensure no handguard contact for the rest of the barrel except for up-pressure supports at the muzzle of the stock at 4:00 and 8:00.  Be sure receiver is firmly bedded and that guard screws when tight do not allow the receiver to tip or twist in the wood. If properly bedded you should be able to support the rifle in a vise, place a dial indicator against muzzle and with front action screw tightened firmly, loosen the rear action screw 1/2 turn and the dial indicator at the muzzle should NOT move.

I do not seat bullets out, but seat a shank length equal to the bullet  diameter into the case to ensure normal bullet pull.  Load bullets as-cast, unsized, with Tamarack in the grooves and light film smeared over nose, no harder than 13 BHN. I crimp the Hornady GC on in a .312 die for tight barrels, .314 for loose barrels, sizing bullets minimally. Do not crimp.

My best loads for tight barrels are 145-gr. NEI #69, 155-gr. #72 or 176-gr. #56 with 12 grains of Unique, 13 grs. of PB or SR7625, 15 grs. of #2400, 20 grs. of 4227 or 22 grs. of 4198. 

I prefer #2400 because it is less position sensitive with the WLR primers I use.  With IMR powders either tip the muzzle up or enlarge flash holes to .099 with a No. 39 drill and use only WLR or Federal 210 primers. 

In the larger barrels over .311” use either the 165-gr. NEi #83 or the 180-gr. No. 83A with 23 grs. of 4198 or if you have any, 22 grs. of Hi Vel 2 is absolutely wonderful.  

With the heavier bullets over 180 grs. 25.5 of H4895 or IMR-4895 is very good, but you must orient either the powder or enlarge flash holes.

If you don't have the NEI moulds use #311299 or Lee .312-1552R in tight barrels of .310” or less and #314299 in larger barrels over .311".

The Finn M39s and Russian M91/30s have larger bore and groove diameters which approximate the .303 British.  My 1942 Tula has a .316 throat and I have ordered a CBE mould from Australia for it.  This mould may see double-duty in my 1896 Krag Bannerman sporter, because it has a .315 throat and I haven't gotten my usual cast bullets to shoot to my expectations.

These loads should average 2-1/2 moa or less in 5-shot groups over the long haul.  When actively shooting military matches I expected 4-5 inches at 200 yards over a long series.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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linoww posted this 12 February 2008

Thanks Ed

 Thats what I was looking for, a bunch of load info!!!

I do not seat bullets out, but seat a shank length equal to the bullet  diameter into the case.....

I havnt had him try seating bullets deeper.All of them are seated quite long into the throat.Sometimes barely held by the bottom band.It may be a bullet pull issue,I hadnt thought of that.I have a 222 with worn throat that shoots WAY better with alot of jump.

 Be sure receiver is firmly bedded into stock and that guard screws......

The rifle is bedded similar to what you reccomend.I have yet to get all buck-nutty and get out the indicator<G>

I prefer #2400 because it is less position sensitive.  With IMR powders either tip the muzzle up or enlarge flash holes to .099 with a No. 39 drill and use only WLR or Federal 210 primers. 

I am trying to steer him to 2400,but he had soemone tell him 4759 is magic.I cant argue,but 2400 is my standby in the old military cases with 4227 a close second.Does it seem like his 20-23g load of 4759 is too hot to anybody else?

 

"or if you have any 22 grs. of Hi Vel 2 is absolutely wonderful" 

I guess i will see Friend Bob for some of that.He also has some of Frank Marshalls old favorite “perfume powder” he is going to let me shoot next time out.

 

These loads should average 2-1/2 moa or less over the long haul. 

With his scoped rifle thats about where we are at.It looks like it wants to do better,so I am going to try everybodys advice.Good groups are 1.25", bad ones are 2.75". All 5 shot groups at 100 yds.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 12 February 2008

argie1891 wrote: I have a 91/30 finn capture. it likes lyman 311284 sized .314 with 12 gr. of unique. seat the bullet out as far as you can. I know my loads are boring as i use 12 gr. of unique in almost everything except the 45/70 13 gr. seems to work better in it. I have shot many 2 inch groups with it and that is as good as i can shoot with the crude sighting system on the 91/30. argie1891

I'll see if I can get him to try that load.I think 2” groups with those sights are fantastic.I can barely see the darn things anymore at the ripe old age of 41.

I agree on the 13.0 45-70 load.It kind of goes against the full case = best load theory.It shouldnt work,but it does!

 

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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kjg posted this 20 March 2008

 I too use unique in ust about every thing, used and like2400, imr 4227 ,h4227,4198 and others unique just works better for me all cals are .303, 30-06,7.62x54, 7.62x39, and pistol cals mostly use lee and lyman moulds, its always interesting to here and read others favorite loads,besides unique powder is also streching my dollars to boot.kjg

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linoww posted this 22 March 2008

The final load chosen was 22g f 4759 and a small tuft of dacron over the powder topped with a 311284 seated down with the GC flush with the bottom of the neck..He(Greg Hagen) shot our match today and was in the money against the 1903's.He did a pillar bedding job and put light pressure on the forend for the final tweek.He is very happy with his rifle and after the match is hooked.He shot the best 10 shot single target at 200 with a 96-2X.

 

George Damron

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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