Hardening Homemade Bullet Lube

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  • Last Post 29 February 2008
CB posted this 24 January 2008

My lube came out today very firm, but I have seen some that is down right hard. How is this achieved?

BTW Just bought a CBA Patch for my jacket, a belt buckle and a sticker to put on my range clip board, so lets support the organization.

 

Jerry

 

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CB posted this 24 January 2008

What did you put in it?? There are a couple of things that will make it very firm.. Too much wax Too much stearate.....

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CB posted this 24 January 2008

Jeff,

 

I used the following:

1 pound Beeswax

1 pounf Parraffin

8 to 10 ounces of STP

1/4 cup of Steric Acid

I am open to suggestions and help. Tomorrow I will try a new idea with the split PVC molds. Always a solution to any problems, it all in knowing when to ask for help. B)

Many Thanks,

 

Jerry

 

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CB posted this 25 January 2008

Ah I see the problem!

Way too much wax to the amount of stp. Also way too much stearate...

The thing is once you have mafe it too hard it is just about scrap..

If you make it too soft, you can always add a bit more to it to firm it up.

Too  much stearate makes it kind of chaulky, I would ease up big time on the stearate.

If you make smaller batches until you get the formula you want figured out, you can save a ton of money in material. I spent about 6 months donating to the trash can before I got something that worked.

First, leave the parrafin wax out of your mix.. Trust me here.

I always measure out everything in grains but I can give you a basic formula in percentages.

40% beeswax 40% ATF 10% STP 10% Sodium Stearate

If you want the lube more sticky, decrease the ATF to 30% and the STP to 20%.

Now even though this seems to be a little light on the beeswax, it may end up needing some heat to go through a lubersizer.

Another tip, always melt your wax first, then add the ATF and STP to it, then add the stearate last. You will need to stir a lot, especially if you use Ivory soap as the source of the stearate.

You will need to heat it to almost smoking to get the ingredients to blend together. Using the ATF minimizes how hot you need to get it.

If you let the mixture cool in the pot you will be able to see if it separates, if it does, you will need to either cook it longer or add just a touch more stearate.

The stearate binds all of the ingredients together and raises the remelt temperature.

Hope this helps you get going in the right direction

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CB posted this 25 January 2008

Jeff,

 

Thanks, I may not be able to do lube today. I do this in abasement garage and it is 11 degrees out.

 

But you have set me in the right direct, Many thanks,

 

Again Thanks,

Jerry

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CB posted this 29 January 2008

Jeff,

 

Your recipe worked well. The split mold tubes had to have duct tape (what else??:D put over the split and then clamped, then the lube pushed out easily.

 

Thanks,

 

Jerry

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CB posted this 30 January 2008

Glad to hear it.

I use a similar mixture for pistol lube. Haven't had it lead yet, up to 1400fps. Easy to make, cheap and it works. I shoot a lot of keith style bullets and with the large lube groove they can really go through the lube.

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Lloyd Smale posted this 16 February 2008

eliminate the paraphin and just use beeswax. Paraphin is really only good for handening lube in my opinion and i dont even use it for that anymore. When i want to harden my home made lube ill buy a couple sticks of hard lube to mix in it. I figure if i have to use something to harden lube it might as well be something that is at least somewhat of a lube.

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CB posted this 16 February 2008

Lloyd Parafin wax is a petroleum by-product.. Leaves nasty sludge in your barrel and it burns easily. I have been told by several of the fellows that it is undesireable to have in your lube, including Tom Gray...

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Lloyd Smale posted this 18 February 2008

I beleive it jeff. My lube has just not turned out as well or did as good of a job with paraphin added.  I just recently made up a few batches of felix lube for testing. What i did with them is use some of that alox you sold me. I subtitued about a 1/3 of the beeswax with alox. It firmed it up quite a bit too. Figured again that if you are going to add something to lube it might as well be a lubricatnt. I also made a batch up using 5050 beeswax and alox and the rest of the felix ingrediants. I havent been able to shoot it but gave felix a sample of each and hes suppose to test them. I guess in the big picuture its going to be a waste as it raises the price of making you lube up above what you can buy it for but its fun to play and you never know when you will work into a majic combination.Jeff Bowles wrote: Lloyd Parafin wax is a petroleum by-product.. Leaves nasty sludge in your barrel and it burns easily. I have been told by several of the fellows that it is undesireable to have in your lube, including Tom Gray...

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CB posted this 18 February 2008

A lot of what you want to accomplish as far as accuracy goes can be inserted into what type of lube you use.

If you just want to do some causual plinking and dont care if each round touches the other on paper or at what end of the tin can you hit with each shot, then you can shoot just about anything as far as lube goes.

If you want the best accuracy you can squeeze out of each round, then you want to use the best lube you can get. The desireable qualities are lube that spins off the bullet completely upon muzzle exit, one that does not burn, has high pressure and friction reducing properties and one that will not leave excessive deposits in the bore.

When you stop and think about it, it all comes down to the above qualities. The old standard of 50/50 beeswax and alox for instance... Alox was orginally developed as a metal protectant, used widely in the automotive industry as undercoating.. It burns, it smokes and smells bad. If you were to take a small quanity of alox, that black/brown tar like goo, set it on a piece of metal and take a propane torch to it, it will burn, smoke and smell bad.. That is exactly what is happening inside your barrel..

I will let you think on the rest on your own, but you can get what I am saying.

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Molly posted this 19 February 2008

Jeff,

You are mistaken about Alox compounds being originally developed for metal protectants.  While they have been so used for quite a while, I learned from conversations with Fred Cumo, their technical director, that the Alox compounds were actually developed as ingredients of skin care products.  They still work quite well for that, but they aren't stripped of odors any more, and some folks (my wife) find their scent somewhat offensive.  No biggie, but it's an interesting bit of trivia.

Molly

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CB posted this 19 February 2008

Really?? Skin care?? Whoa, can you imagine smearing some of that stuff on your face at night?? I know that some of the different formulas were the base for undercoating and rust prevention when I work in research and development at Fords..

Aint no way you would catch me smearing that junk on my body, it would attract too much lead!

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utk posted this 19 February 2008

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CB posted this 19 February 2008

Most bullet lubes, including the one I make, has stearine in it as a binder. It also raises the remelt temperature. If you use too much however, it will make the lube chaulky and too hard to stick to the bullet. I find that amounts in excess of 10% of the total lube volume will cause the described condition.

When used in the correct proportions it is an asset to the lube formula.

Miestro_Jerry knows what happens with too much Stearine in the lube and we have discussed  eaeiler in this  post.

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CB posted this 21 February 2008

To harden bullet lube use a small anount of Carnauba wax, don't go over board with it.

This is what I have learned from Jeff.   :dude:

 

Jerry

 

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CB posted this 21 February 2008

That disproves the old addage that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

All I am trying to do is keep folks from making as many mistakes as I have made in the 2 plus years I worked on my formula and the expense of making those mistakes.

I have an opinion that there is no one size fits all lube, especially from a financial standpoint.

I happen to like shooting keith style semi wadcutter bullets in my pistols, it is not cost effective to use the same lube I make for competition. The lube formula I have suggested to Jerry in the above post will work well as a general all around pistol and rifle under 2000fps lube and doesnt cost an arm and a leg to make.

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Lloyd Smale posted this 29 February 2008

jeff when you make this do you mix by weight or by volume and where do you gt sodium sterateJeff Bowles wrote: Ah I see the problem!

Way too much wax to the amount of stp. Also way too much stearate...

The thing is once you have mafe it too hard it is just about scrap..

If you make it too soft, you can always add a bit more to it to firm it up.

Too  much stearate makes it kind of chaulky, I would ease up big time on the stearate.

If you make smaller batches until you get the formula you want figured out, you can save a ton of money in material. I spent about 6 months donating to the trash can before I got something that worked.

First, leave the parrafin wax out of your mix.. Trust me here.

I always measure out everything in grains but I can give you a basic formula in percentages.

40% beeswax 40% ATF 10% STP 10% Sodium Stearate

If you want the lube more sticky, decrease the ATF to 30% and the STP to 20%.

Now even though this seems to be a little light on the beeswax, it may end up needing some heat to go through a lubersizer.

Another tip, always melt your wax first, then add the ATF and STP to it, then add the stearate last. You will need to stir a lot, especially if you use Ivory soap as the source of the stearate.

You will need to heat it to almost smoking to get the ingredients to blend together. Using the ATF minimizes how hot you need to get it.

If you let the mixture cool in the pot you will be able to see if it separates, if it does, you will need to either cook it longer or add just a touch more stearate.

The stearate binds all of the ingredients together and raises the remelt temperature.

Hope this helps you get going in the right direction

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CB posted this 29 February 2008

Lloyd,

 

I get mine at Candle making places, you may want to try a cheese grater and Ivory soap.

 

The last pound I bought was from this place:

http://www.ohiocandlesandsupplies.com/home1.html>http://www.ohiocandlesandsupplies.com/home1.html

A pound is a lot.

 

Jeff does things by percentages by Volume.

 

Jerry

 

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Molly posted this 29 February 2008

Fellows, 

I'd like to make a suggestion for those who are really serious about mixing different materials.  There is an industrial class of chemicals called couplers or hydrotropes.  (Look 'em up on Google.) They are outstanding for their ability to make things mix, and (depending on which you chose and how much you use) for improving clarity, lubricity, stability and anti-corrosion, among other properties.  It's easy to mix water and oil into clear, stable, water-white solutions with them.  I have done it, though it takes a pretty good slug of hydrotrope.

The only real problem is that a lot of them come as water solutions to make handling easier in plants.  You'll need to specify non-volatile materials.  It'll be easier if you explain that you won't care if it's too hard to pour (BG).  I have added contact info for these two suppliers below, but there are thousands of others.  Most of them will be happy to send you a pint to a quart of their product as free samples.  Just explain that you are trying to develop a commercial stick lubricant for metals (which is quite true!), and the prospect of future business will do the job. 

Hydrotropic surfactants encompass a very wide range of products and properties.  All provide compatibility, and some provide other properties like lubricity, anti-corrosion, and stability.  I suggest contacting manufacturers such as Stephan and Rhodia for specific recommendations.  These are among the most valuable tools for formulators of blended products. 

Regards,

Molly

STEPAN COMPANY> Technical Service> email:> [email protected] 

Rhodia Inc> Tel : (609) 860-4000>

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CB posted this 29 February 2008

Molly,

I know these have been used in industrial mixing, the one that I am aware of is: sodium xylene sulfonate. But the problem is with many chemical, is that you have to buy a barrel full of these things. Unless you want to sell some smaller quantities to us?

:dude:

Thanks,

Jerry

 

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Molly posted this 29 February 2008

miestro_jerry wrote: Molly,

I know these have been used in industrial mixing, the one that I am aware of is: sodium xylene sulfonate. But the problem is with many chemical, is that you have to buy a barrel full of these things.  Unless you want to sell some smaller quantities to us?

Hi Jerry,

Actually, I don't think Sodium Xylene Sulfate (SXS) would be a particularly good choice:  With the water dried off, it looks a lot like  chunk of concrete.  And it's only one of a whole family.  Here's a list of similar couplers from just one company:

Hydrotropes                             

Product Name                             Form       Activity

Sodium Xylene Sulfonate                        

Naxonate® 4L                             Liquid      40%

Naxonate® 4LS                           Liquid      40%

Naxonate® 4LOF                        Liquid      40%

Naxonate® SX                            Powder    96%

Ammonium Xylene Sulfonate                  

Naxonate® 4AX                          Liquid      40%

Sodium Cumene Sulfonate                      

Naxonate® 40SC                        Liquid      40%

Naxonate® 45SC                        Liquid      45%

Naxonate® SC                            Powder    96%

Sodium Toluene Sulfonate                      

Naxonate® 4ST                           Liquid      40%

Naxonate® ST                            Powder    96%

Potassium Toluene Sulfonate                  

Naxonate® 4KT                           Liquid      40%

 

On refelection, it MAY be that one (or more) of these could be soluble in the mixture of waxes someone is playing with, so the 'concrete' comment above wouldn't necessarily be valid.  But the water is still a problem!  I suppose that if you have the equipment, you could strip it out under vaccum and an azeotrope like Xylene, or evaporate it  with heat and time.  But very few will have access to the equipment needed.

Hmm.  You know, if you got a sample of the powdered material, it wouldn't be hard to find out if it is soluble in one of your ingredients.  If so, that would eliminate the water problem from the beginning and still give you all the benefits. 

But barring that, my gut feeling is that the hydrotropic surfactants would still be the way to go:  Many have no water to deal with, plus they will melt and stir in easily, if they're not liquid already.  It'd just be a matter of adding some to the batch and seeing if it cleared up after a bit of stirring.

Personally, I'm retired now.  I just have enough consultancy contacts that I can play in the labs once in a while, but I have no authority at all.  Tell you what though:  Look in your local phone book for manufacturers of industrial soaps and cleaners.  Chances are, there will be one within half an hour of you.  Drive over some afternoon, and ask a floor supervisor for a few samples.  These things are usually very inexpensive, and if you don't hit him when he has to get a shipment out right away, chances are he'll have someone give you several half pint samples to try out.  Lemme know how it works.

God Bless,

Molly

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