PLAINBASE 30-06 LOADS

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  • Last Post 06 November 2009
linoww posted this 21 January 2008

I have always used 2400 in the 11-14 grain range.Looking for anybody who is doing PB shooting in the '06.I have four bullets i am working with now. 

The line-up-- LBT 190 Spitzer , Lyman 308241RN 140g , Eagan MX330KBR (sans GC) 165g and SAECO#630FP 140g. 

I have shot TrailBoss one time and it did fair with the SAECO #630. I have shot 700x and it also did OK,but 2400 seemed the best.

Not using fillers(dacron etc..) or “P” checks at this time.

I am getting 1.5 to 2.25” at 100 for 5 shot groups with the good loads with a 1903 Springfield with a Lyman 48 rear sight.I have shot some 1” groups,but not many.

The point of it is to get a competitive load for 100 yd CBA Military Match shooting without a GC. At $25 per 1000 for little copper cups its worth the effort!!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 22 January 2008

I would use the Eagan bullet without the GC and the minimum load of #2400 which burns well and gives uniform velocities. Your 11 grain starting load sounds about right. That's what I am using in mine with WLR primers.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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linoww posted this 22 January 2008

Ed Harris wrote: I would use the Eagan bullet without the GC and the minimum load of #2400 which burns well and gives uniform velocities. Your 11 grain starting load sounds about right. That's what I am using in mine with WLR primers.

What kind of accuracy do you get?? Do you use fillers or “soft” checks??

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 23 January 2008

I get about 1.5 m.o.a. from my Sako silhouette rifle and 2.5 m.o.a. from my Mauser sporter with 4X scope. No fillers or soft checks.  Spead sheet attached shows results for Ball M2 jacketed pulls using Bullseye powder, “generic” cast load with “bought” #311291 and 4198 powder, and two Bullseye powder cast bullet gallery loads in several rifles.   These are recreational loads for practice, not serious competiition, but I expect that with more care in bullet selection this could be improved upon.  The #2400 loads when I was using them did at least this well. The table is a “preview” from an upcoming Fouling Shot article edited from the .30-'06 Bullseye Loads thread. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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linoww posted this 23 January 2008

Your accuracy is similar to what I think is good enough for my 100-200 yd plinkfests.

I also shoot the 7.62 x 39 with the 308241 Lyman and 8.5 of the old AL-8 and that is wonderful load for my bolt Ruger 77.I have never tried AL-8 in the '06 have you?

I had been keeping data on my plainbase loads in the '06 military rifles for a piece i was going to put together for the Fouling Shot.Looks like you will beat me to the punch!!

Do you think the soft checks are a big factor for the ultimate accuracy in PB loads?

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 23 January 2008

Never tried AL8, but AL5 and 7 worked OK with Unique and PB data. Never thought the soft checks helped much.

You should so ahead and do your article on plainbased loads.

I am using only Bullseye powder in the .30-'06 for my piece. Yours would add more to the body of knowledge.  As the cost of gaschecks goes higher and higher many people would be interested in plainbased loads for military rifles of any caliber.

Please finish your article and submit it.  Anything you can add to what is already posted is certainly welcome and needed.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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linoww posted this 23 January 2008

Thanks for the advice.I may continue with it.

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Mark Wakefield posted this 25 February 2008

                           I have shot thousands and thousands of 9.2 grains of Unique with Lyman 311410 130 gr. plain based pointed bullet in my 30 06 chambering in a mil sighted 1940's made O3 A3 made by Remington. I think was using a Lyman 311410 130 gr. plain-based pointed bullet. I think this bullet was at first for use in 30 carbines.

                           I vaguely remember clicking up the rear sight to 200 or 300 yards to flatten out the point of impact. My group in a 100 yards shooting on sandbags would be 1 inch to 1-½ inches.

                            This was 25 years ago but I remember standing up and whacking the 200 yard plate of steel with all five. String after string leaving brass scattered all around me, and a big grin on my face. The plate was 18 inches wide by 24 long.

                         This was 25 years ago but I remember. When the wind hit coming across full right left to right I would have put in maybe 2 or 3 clicks just to shoot in to the wind flow. Note on a slower bullet I would use a heavy amount of clicks just to get the slower moving bullet to move over and slide thru the on coming wind sooooooo nicely.

Mark M W

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linoww posted this 26 February 2008

I have shot thousands and thousands of 9.2 grains of Unique with Lyman 311410 130 gr. plain based pointed bullet in my 30 06. I vaguely remember clicking up the rear sight to 200 or 300 yards to flatten out the point of impact. My group in a 100 yards shooting on sandbags would be 1 inch to 1-½ inches.

I have shot the 311410 quite a bit.its not to bad of a bullet .Although i never have gotten the accuracy you were getting in iron sighted guns! It's been about a 2-2.5MOA bullet at best in my 30 caliber mil guns and thats good enough for awful-hand practice or can plinking.I'll have to try your Unique load.I now use 700X for my lower velocity stuff or 2400 for a bit more.

 This was 25 years ago but I remember standing up and whacking the 200 yard plate of steel with all five. String after string leaving brass scattered all around me, and a big grin on my face. The plate was 18 inches wide by 24 long.

We have a full sized deer sil-o-et at 200 meters that i bang away at with my PB 30 loads in my 1903.Thats as fun as it gets.

You should try the SAECO #630 (140g Flat point plain base).Its a real gem and i find it shoots well enough in many 30 caliber guns.A plus is you can get it in a 4 cavity!!

MY 308241 8 cavity lyman Armory mold i just purchased is doing about 2.5"@ 100(10 shot groups) out of a scoped accurate 30-30.I just cast another 400 and segregated them into groups of 8 from each pour. I want to shoot one from each hole and see how they group as a “team"I then plan to shoot one cavity singly and see what happens.Alot of work,but I want to use the data in an article I am trying to write.Nobody would publish or read it,but its still fun to try<G>

 

 

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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RicinYakima posted this 26 February 2008

Geo.,

You'd be surprised at what we will read! There is so little cast bullet stuff written than can be backed up with real shooting experience, not keyboard dreams, that it is all valuable!

Ric

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Gene posted this 28 February 2008

George,

I don't see a saeco #630 listed on their website.  Please advise.

 

Thanks,

 

Gene Perryman

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Ed Harris posted this 28 February 2008

Gene wrote: I don't see a saeco #630 listed on their website.  Please advise. It's not on the regular bullet list, check the “traditional” bullet list with the blackpowder and cowboy slugs.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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linoww posted this 29 February 2008

Ed is correct.I should have mentioned that.It's a goody.

I was sorting through a bunch of targets last night and i found a few groups i shot with that one.On load was 10.0 of Trailboss and the other was 7.0 of 700X.Both had a few groups in the 1"-1.5” range at 100 with a 1903 Springfiled with issue sights.The bad groups were a bit over 2". I hadnt remembered Trailboss doing that well.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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charlie nz posted this 01 March 2008

I am planning to shoot the 185 grain MX .30 ARD Eagan bullet in my 30 BR bench rifles without a gas check and trials have shown that the bullet base will not intrude into the powder space. I have long believed that plain base bullets represent the purest form of cast bullet shooting,after all the copper cup is a kind of jacket albeit a very short one.I have had so far pleasing success using the 180 grain RCBS bullet minus GC in a target weight Martini in 30 30 plus 15 grains of 4198, the only thing that has me stumped is what alloy should I be using?What do you folk use?

Thank you

Chalie Ford 

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castshooter-too posted this 25 August 2008

 

          linoww: I use the saeco 630 140 fp cast of 50/50 ww lead in a savage 110 with 11.2gr. reddot and get good accuracy to 200yds.:cool:

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Mark Wackerfeld posted this 25 August 2008

   Hi All;

              

            I'm working with my new 1940's stile  03 A3 in 30 06 with Redfield long slide rear sight and hooded front sight. I have never shot this gun before. But I have shot many other 03 A3's just like it.

           I'm shooting a Lyman 311241 Bullet Mold 150g Plane Base same mold as the earlier production number >>308241 it will cast DIA .314 to .315. The load I have tried for 30 06 is 11.3g Red Dot. I want to make the move to 13.5 Red Dot real soon. I'm a thinking I need a little more pop for the bang. So as to get some more feet per sec. in this load then it will tighten the group up. My shooting was from the 100 yard mark. I was suffering form a gusty 15 mile per hour wind right to left. But I got off 10 shots in side of 3 1/4 inches.

            With my new 1940's stile  03 A3. My load for Lyman bullet 311291 @ 170gr RN- gas checked bullet cast at DIA .314 in 30 06 is 13.5g Red Dot.  This load returned 5 shots in side of 2 3/4 inches at 100 yards all in the same windy day. Sorry about the gas checked bullet yack yack. But we are still talking Red Dot cast bullet shooting. 

More later Mark

 

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Mark Wackerfeld posted this 25 August 2008

Chalie Ford; 

I have a BSA Martini I chambered in 30 30 Winchester.

I do like shooting a Lyman 311241 bullet as a 150g plane base bullet with 9.2g of Red Dot or 10 grains of Unique.

 

Lyman bullet alloy number 2 is the bullet hardness I think you should I be using. The Lyman bullet alloy number 2 recipe you can find. “On page 57 of Lyman cast bullet handbook.â€?

9p wheel weights + 1 p 50/0 bar solder = 10 p #2 alloy

4p lino + 1p 50/50 bar solder + 5p pure lead = 10 p #2 alloy

 

 If you can't get close to lino type metal from the printing industry. The there is a water quench method out there for those who like to heat treat bullet metal. Some casters like to size their bullets first! Then run the bullets to the oven heat to 440 degs for 30 min. then quench the bullets in water. Some like me! Me just knock the bullet from the mold strait into the bucket of water. I was knock'n out 400 g 45 70 bullets like this way one day. Till the splash back from the heavy bullets soaked the crotch of my blue jeans. The very heavy splash back got me so cold..... I had to go back in and change clothing. That's a tender deal there boys, I want you to know!

 

Mark

 

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linoww posted this 26 August 2008

castshooter-too wrote:  

          linoww: I use the saeco 630 140 fp cast of 50/50 ww lead in a savage 110 with 11.2gr. reddot and get good accuracy to 200yds.:cool:

Nice Little bullet “innit"

I have shot it at 200 a few times but it sure strays alot in the wind.I would imagine 11.2 of Red Dot is moving out pretty fair velocity wise.How fast do you figure its going?

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Mark Wackerfeld posted this 28 August 2008

Geo;

          I'm not one to have tools to gather bullet speed as of yet. So I don't know how fast that bullet is moving down gange.

          I have that shortened 308241 Lyman mold. It's a plane bace bullet RN that must be 130g to 140g. I can't weight to cast some up. Then give the shortened 308241 a 135'ish g Lyman mold a try in my 30 30. This is a setup for winter work for the shooting of my 30 30 Rook BSA in the 50 yard indoor range.

Mark

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linoww posted this 28 August 2008

  I have that shortened 308241 Lyman mold. It's a plane bace bullet RN that must be 130g

I have that one too,but have never shot it.Keep me posted.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Wally Enga posted this 28 August 2008

A couple of years ago, I had NEI make a 4 cavity 168gn plainbase that drops at about .316. I have shot it quite a bit in the Finn M39's and even sized it down to 310 for the Swiss K-31's.

 With about 9.5gns of Unique (aprox 1200 fps) it will usually hold pretty close to the 10 ring on the MR-31 target at 100 yds. But and this is a big but --- out of about every 10 shot string it will throw a flyer that will go way out in the 7 or 8 ring.

 Works good for practice, wind doping, etc. but not consistent enough to use in a match. Correct that --- it is plenty accurate enough fo me to use in an Offhand Match :(

For a plainbase bullet in the 1200 fps range , I don't think I  would use an alloy harder then WW's because the pressures are so low.  I've had the best results with an alloy of about ½  WW's & ½ lead or just straight medical lab (nuclear medicine casings) --- BHN of only a little over 10.

 Wally

 

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linoww posted this 28 August 2008

Works good for practice, wind doping, etc. but not consistent enough to use in a match. Correct that --- it is plenty accurate enough fo me to use in an Offhand Match :(

 

Thats exactly where i have gotten with my PB loads in  the '06.it will at times shoot very well at 100,but not often enough for total confidence..The LBT i had made shoots best so far and also I have a PB Barnett 200g .30  and Hoch PB SAECO RG4 copy that show promise.The funny thing is the old Ideal 308241 I have in a 7 cavity Armory mold shoots almost as well as the nice customs i have.I may shoot one of  them at the100yd stage at my match this fall.I would like to shoot a respectable score with PB is the '06 in a match just to see if i could do it.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 11 January 2009

I shot some targets today with my 1903 Springfield and plain base bullets.  It was a lot of fun after being tormented by .22s for the past year.

I shot three five shot groups with the RCBS 150 grain “Cowboy” bullet and three with the Saeco 140 grain.  Used the same powder charges for both.  The RCBS bullet is the three targets in the first picture and the Saeco the second.  From left to right on both pictures; 10.4 grains Unique, 10.3 grains Blue Dot, 11.2 grains 2400. 

I cleaned the barrel between each group and did not fire any fouling shots.  A couple of targets have the first shot marked.

I think the RCBS/Blue Dot load needs to be shot again, The Unique/Saeco load was just too fast, I had a lot of leading after that target.

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Mark Wakefield posted this 12 January 2009

Tormented by .22s or;

Plane base bullets shoot accurate enough.

Look at the healed 22 cal. long rifle cartridge.

 

                  I was shooting a 45x70 cast bullet round one day and some one was appalled by the thinking that some one could shoot a cast bullet, with light load of flake shape shot gun powder. Why it's half full!

I reach over and ripped off the top of a 22 long rifle cartridge. I said my 45x70 load is a rimed cartridge right. “Yesâ€? this 22 long rifle cartridge is rimmed right “yesâ€? Here look inside this 22 long rifle cartridge do you see the same flake shape shot gun powder in this cartridge and the same flake shape shot gun powder has the brass case now about OH 50 percent full “OKâ€? I see that. Well let me tell you about this 45 70 load. The case is about 50% full of the same flake shape shot gun powder you may see in that 22 long rifle cartridge. RIGHT. The its got a lead bullet out in front of all of that. If I was to build a 45 70 load according to ratio and proportion “would or could” it look like a 22 long rifle cartridge.

“All right I got it I can see what you telling me here.â€? I now see there is nothing is wrong with a 22 long rifle cartridge loads for accuracy loads.

 

Reloading 30x 06 with a Lyman #311410 plane base cast bullet.

I had fine accuracy in my 1940'sh  Remington 03 A3 in 30x06 with the 311410 as a plane base cast 130 grain bullet and 9.2 grains of unique. This plane base cast 130-grain bullet number Lyman #311410 was in some thing like #2 alloy.

I remember looking at the load and the scoops offered by my Lee power measuring kit. I settled on that 9.2-grain load of Unique power. I sure didn't want to push the bullet to fast. Not being a chronograph man I don't know what kind of speed my best load was moving at but I had no leading. The best I can estimate the speed of my load would be 130g cast bullet: 9.2g unique: at about 1250 F.P.S. In fact we would say the cast bullet was moving not slower than same speed as a 22-caliber long rifle bullet.

The 130-grain bullet plane base cast bullet number #311410 is shown in the 30 Carbine loads of almost any Lyman reloading handbook. Most certainly these plane base 30 Carbine loads will not be removed any time in the near future. This slick sided plane base bullet was made to allow for the 30 carbines magazine feeding requirements. The shape looks good in 30x06 loadings as well.

As I look over Lyman reloading handbook cast bullet-loading information I'm over whelmed by some transferable information that all plane base bullet-shooting fans should read and understand. 3 powers were used in the accuracy loads with Lyman cast bullet number #311410 for 30 carbine bullet loads. Just were in terms of F.P.S. leading will start! I will not know!

The fastest load for Lyman cast bullet number #311410 for 30 carbine they tried with this 30-carbine plane base bullet was a startling 1733 F.P.S. This amount of powder was not used in their accuracy load! Because of its sequent speed this load was brought down to >>>1564 F.P.S. just to be found in the accuracy loads listings. The plane base bullet in these accuracy loads for Lyman cast bullet number #311410 for 30 carbine were not driven faster than 1564 F.P.S. to 1675 F.P.S.

Look we ran all the way down here to see that 1600 F.P.S. was found right here in the in the mid field of best performance.

Remember when you were a child at story time you would wait holding your breath down the end of you favorite story. Then you would amaze your self-laughing at the same old ending every time.

 

BY By till the next Go round Cowboys.

Mark Wackerfeld

 

 

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KenK posted this 13 January 2009

Anybody tried  reduced XMP-5744 loads under Lyman's start load?  Maybe about 18 grains with a 150 grain bullet.

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KenK posted this 18 January 2009

Well, the wheels have come off the bus.  I was real pleased with my first try; 4 of 6 loads shot under 2".  Since then I haven't been able to get squat to work.

Three theories;

  1. The first targets were just flukes.

2. I used the very last of my CCI primers with those first loads and had to switch to Federal.

  1. The weather has turned substantially cooler here.

The first targets were with brand new brass also, I had high hopes it would shoot better with once fired and then neck sized brass.

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linoww posted this 18 January 2009

KenK wrote:

Three theories;

  1. The first targets were just flukes.

2. I used the very last of my CCI primers with those first loads and had to switch to Federal.

  1. The weather has turned substantially cooler here.

The first targets were with brand new brass also, I had high hopes it would shoot better with once fired and then neck sized brass.

My PB loads shot better with WLR pimers compared to CCI when using 7-8g of Bullseye.I too seem to have trouble getting good shooting lower velocity loads in sub freezing weather.Even my 16.0 of 2400 in my 30-06 doesnt do as well.I have been using an Alox350 beeswax NRA so maybe its lube related.Or i just dont do well myself in frigid stuff? George Damron

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 19 January 2009

Whatever lube does or does not do; it makes sense that it is the most effected by cold.

My lovely wife got me a thousand CCI primers and another pound of 2400 when she went to “town” today.  I shall keep shooting.

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JetMech posted this 19 January 2009

When I was in Colorado, my “pet” rifle loads didn't seem to perform as well as they did in Florida. A gentleman there suggested a switch in lubes from Alox/Beeswax to Lithium/Beeswax. It did the trick. It was a home-made lube. Don't know if it's available commercially but it's easy to make. My notes indicate the ratio was 1:1.

Another thing is that in cold weather, less lube is normally required, so you might try leaving the top groove dry.

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linoww posted this 19 January 2009

I wonder if i should go back to 50/50 parafin/vaseline+STP(Darr #2) I made up about 4# of it and it was all i used for awhile in pistols and rifle loads on the mild side.Until 6 years ago i didn't live in an area that had so many winter days below freezing! i am going to load up the Pope Lyman 308403 finger seated in the '06 so i think i'll mix up another batch of Darr for this one. George V

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Mark Wakefield posted this 20 January 2009

KenK wrote: Whatever lube does or does not do; it makes sense that it is the most effected by cold.

My lovely wife got me a thousand CCI primers and another pound of 2400 when she went to “town” today.  I shall keep shooting.

Mark wrote;               

                          Go right now!

                                     Then and buy her a brand new spiraled bound note pad!

Just to keep her little list of “Honey Do's On!â€? :D

                                     

"Discursion is indeed the better part of valor."

 

I have a “winter lube” and the “summer lube” When its late spring the “winter lube” is just about druleing down my elboes!

 

                         

Oh has any one ever viewed a 1891 Argy bullet loaded with milty hard ball? No wonder there is such a gap to jump to seat on the Ogive.

  Mark END

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chboats posted this 21 January 2009

I have learned a lot and enjoyed this this sting. I have been shooting CBs in rifles for about 3 years now. Mostly 308 and a Rem 03A3 2 grove with issue sights.

A couple of weeks ago I tried PB bullets for the first time in the 03A3. What a disaster that was. The load I normally shoot is a 314299 with 18Gr 5744 at a measured 1280 FPS . If I do my part I generally have good results with this load. So to cut cost I left off the gas check . I have had tighter patterns with a shot gun and to add insult to injury it left a lot of lead in the barrel. From what I have read this should have been a light enough load.       What happened?

May they always go through the same hole

Carl

 

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KenK posted this 21 January 2009

I have read from those that know much more than I do that you need a softer bullet for plain base shooting.

My little bit of experience supports this.  Plain old air cooled wheel weights shoot the best for me.

 

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linoww posted this 21 January 2009

KenK wrote: I have read from those that know much more than I do that you need a softer bullet for plain base shooting.

My little bit of experience supports this.  Plain old air cooled wheel weights shoot the best for me.

 

I have never owned a “real” plainbase shooting machine Schutzen type rifle.My friend cant his .32 Miller to shoot as well with harder w/w bullets.(it only shoots 3/4"-1” at 100 for 10 shots !)Part of this is they wont breech seat easily enough.I have shot Linotype plainbase in 30-06,308,30-30 and 7.62 x 39 and have had good results at least down to a bit under MOA.Plain old WW with tin do pretty well,but i have shot a friends 25 Hornet with a 100g PB bullet from lino @ near1700 fps.  it shot "just” MOA and don't think WW or softer could do this.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 21 January 2009

A couple of weeks ago I tried PB bullets for the first time in the 03A3. What a disaster that was. The load I normally shoot is a 314299 with 18Gr 5744 at a measured 1280 FPS .

 

Try 7-8 of Bullseye with a Winchester primer.It  shoots well in all my 4 groove Springfields.Alloy is any scrap that will cast.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 25 January 2009

linoww wrote:

I have never owned a “real” plainbase shooting machine Schutzen type rifle.My friend cant his .32 Miller to shoot as well with harder w/w bullets.(it only shoots 3/4"-1” at 100 for 10 shots !)Part of this is they wont breech seat easily enough.I have shot Linotype plainbase in 30-06,308,30-30 and 7.62 x 39 and have had good results at least down to a bit under MOA.Plain old WW with tin do pretty well,but i have shot a friends 25 Hornet with a 100g PB bullet from lino @ near1700 fps.  it shot "just” MOA and don't think WW or softer could do this.

George

Maybe I haven't given the harder alloys a fair chance.  I mixed up a sixty pound batch of Lyman # 2 this week and cast some .22 and .30 caliber to try.  It sure does cast a pretty bullet.

I say it's Lyman # 2, that is assuming my linotype actually is linotype.

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linoww posted this 25 January 2009

I shot the Pope design 308403 for the first time today.I shot it with 7.2 of Bullseye.I finger seated it “long” in fired unsized cases and let the bullet seat itself when the bolt was closed(like Pope designed it to do).The alloy was WW+Lino (60-40)and only rear groove lubed with NRA.I used a 1903 Spr.with cut down orig wood and Lyman target sights.First group of 5 @ 100 was 1"even.I adjusted the sights and fired 10 more and the group started like the first,but “strung-up” to about 2-3/4".I shot the last 5 and it grouped 1-1/4".I will now cast 100 or so and see what happens.I am very happy with the initial results considering it was about 25deg and pretty breezy.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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[email protected] posted this 25 January 2009

I've tried 13 grians of unique,13grains of 231 so far behind a 150 grain Seaco cast of quenched ww,without a gas check, lubed in my Lyman 450 with GAR hard lube of some kind and then tumble lubed in Lee liquid alox in my model 70, 06. They leaded so bad I'd loose accuracy in 5 shots.Had a heck of a time cleaning it out. Put a gas check on the same bullet and shoot them ahead of 30 grains of 748 and they will stay in 2-2.5 inches at 100 yards with some leading. I ran out of gas checks though and don't really have the money right now to get more. The model 70 is a pre 64 that might just need shot some more with cast to smooth things up some. So I'll try other combos. I want to shoot the thing. I've noticed in the past with some old 38 specials and 357's that I've had that it sometimes takes a good many shots and cleanings before groups improve and leading becomes acceptable. I also noticed the same thing with a 300 magnum,but nothing like that model 70. It is sitting in the safe whining to be shot.    

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linoww posted this 25 January 2009

I have never used 5744 with PB in the 06.The velocity you are getting “should” be fine.I get better accuracy with the faster pistol powders with the PB loads in the 30-30,7.62X39,308,7.65's and 30-06.But if I was asked why all i could do is shrug my shoulders as other powders at similar velocites should do as well?I did use some surplus powder called “clone 4759” that shot sub MOA with PB in a 30-30 bolt action target rifle sometimes.I wish i bought 64# of the stuff as it only cost $11.50 # delivered!

George Damron

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Ed Harris posted this 26 January 2009

In my experience the plainbased loads in '06 work best with soft alloys, no harder than air cooled wheelweights, about 12 BHN, but softer, 1:25 or 1:30 tin/lead is better, BHN 8-10. Light charges of fast powder work better. Nothing slower than #2400 or 4227 in the '06. Use 10 grs. of Unique or PB, 11-12 grs. of #2400 or 4227, 7-8 grains of the fast burners such as Bullseye, Red Dot, 700X.

In the cold weather here lately been pan lubing bullets with equal parts by liquid volume beeswax, Crisco and ATF. Nice consistency below freezing. May try without the Crisco in summer.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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35Whelen posted this 27 January 2009

  I've been shooting lots of plain base lately, but mostly in my K-31. I have however shot a little in my 03A3. The bullet is from my NEI 308145 mould. I cast with wheelweights only; water-quenched if I'm impatient and want to shoot “now", air-cooled if I'm in no hurry.

  The first load I tried was the old standard 16 grs. of 2400 with a WLR primer. The bullet, which drops from the mould at about .310", was loaded lubed only. (As a side note, I no longer size with my Lubrisizer. I keep a .314” or .315” die in it and use it to lube my bullets which are then sized in Lee dies.) I fired a few 5 shot groups at 50 yds. to get a feel for the load. The first grouped 1", but leaded the bore, which was no surprise. Next, I used the same load but added PSB buffer. This eliminated the leading and the load grouped 1 1/4". Next I tried 12.5 grs. of Red Dot and this load grouped 2” @ 50 yds., with the first three shots of the group going into 1” with no leading.

  Some time later, I used the same bullet sized .310” and loaded over 7.0 grs. of Bullseye and sparked with a CCI350 primer. This load was fired at 100 yds. and proved extremely accurate with 5 shots going into a hair under 1". This load didn't lead either.

   I'm almost finished with the load development for my K-31 at which time I'll concentrate more on the 03A3.

  35W

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KenK posted this 27 January 2009

I loaded up ten rounds last night with the RCBS 150 grain bullet cast out of Lyman #2 and shot them just now on my lunch hour.

The first five shots went into 1 3/16” (four out of five were in a 1/2” cluster) and the second five shot group was a hair under 2 1/4".  I superimposed the two targets and the first group fit neatly within the second.  Fired all ten shots in five minutes.

A problem I have with load development is poor record keeping and changing more than one variable at a time.  Except for the alloy, this was one of the loads that worked in my orginal tests.  11.2 grains of 2400 and the bullet seated all the way to the crimp groove.

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linoww posted this 27 January 2009

A problem I have with load development is poor record keeping and changing more than one variable at a time

Me too,but how else could you stumble on a magic load.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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35Whelen posted this 27 January 2009

KenK wrote: I loaded up ten rounds last night with the RCBS 150 grain bullet cast out of Lyman #2 and shot them just now on my lunch hour.

The first five shots went into 1 3/16” (four out of five were in a 1/2” cluster) and the second five shot group was a hair under 2 1/4".  I superimposed the two targets and the first group fit neatly within the second.  Fired all ten shots in five minutes.

A problem I have with load development is poor record keeping and changing more than one variable at a time.  Except for the alloy, this was one of the loads that worked in my orginal tests.  11.2 grains of 2400 and the bullet seated all the way to the crimp groove.

  Ken what range were you shooting? 50 or 100? I, like you have a problem with record keeping unless I'm really careful. I have a binder with my load data in it that I keep at my bench. I've tabbed the pages for the various cartridges, and force myself to enter write the data on the sheet before I load the shells. Even then, I often rush out to the bench and fire 3 or 4 different loads then trust myself to remember the results. Something that has helped me immensely is this sheet: http://www.surplusrifle.com/reloading/graphics/handloadinglogcast.pdf>http://www.surplusrifle.com/reloading/graphics/handloadinglogcast.pdf

  It leaves nothing to question and all one has to do is fill in the blanks!

   35W

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KenK posted this 27 January 2009

100 yards.  I'm so bad about records that I sometimes go hunt old bulletin board posts to find out what load I was using.

This is the 1 3/16” group; it demonstrates another flaw in my thinking.  Rather than accept the “80%” group for the fluke that it is; I figure I blinked, or should have culled that bullet or something.

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linoww posted this 28 January 2009

Is this the RCBS 150 Cowboy bullet ? If so what does it cast in your soft “butter like"<G> alloy (nose dia. and body dia.) ?

I dont know if i'd call that one bullet a flyer,its still a nice PB group.What gun was it shot in ?

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 28 January 2009

It is the RCBS Cowboy bullet.  The body is about .309 and the nose is .295.

My rifle is a 1912 manufactured 1903 Springfield (time bomb ; ) it was “sporterized” in the 50's and wears a 1944 Remington two groove barrel.

The mould itself sucks.  I have to beat the heck out of it to get the bullets to drop.  The bullets always stick on the same side so I assume it was cut off center.

Not a big RCBS mould fan; I only have two others from them and they don't cast very well either. 

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linoww posted this 28 January 2009

KenK wrote: It is the RCBS Cowboy bullet.  The body is about .309 and the nose is .295.

My rifle is a 1912 manufactured 1903 Springfield (time bomb ; ) it was “sporterized” in the 50's and wears a 1944 Remington two groove barrel.

The mould itself s**ks.  I have to beat the heck out of it to get the bullets to drop.  The bullets always stick on the same side so I assume it was cut off center.

Not a big RCBS mould fan; I only have two others from them and they don't cast very well either. 

Yuk on the dimensions of that one.

I have had pretty good luck with RCBS molds,sounds like you got a lemon.I had a Lyman mold stick bullets like your RCBS does.I solved it by opening the mold slowly with the base down and pushing the back of the block with my “knocker stick".I push in a way to force the rear of the cavities together while i slowly(or quickly,whatever works) open it with one hand and they fell right out.Sometimes pusing on one of the other corners works too.Depends on the sticking situation.Has worked well with many others molds, often making me not have to rap the blocks at all as bullets just fall out.

See my crude drawing attached.Of course most people already probably do this and i'll seem like an idiot for repeating it.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 28 January 2009

linoww wrote:  i'll seem like an idiot for repeating it.

George

Or for posting it upside down or mirror image or whatever you did.  LOL.

I never heard of doing that, I'll try it next time.

Regarding the poor measurements; I make up for it by not using the proper seating depth.   I figure the bullet has bumped up to the proper size by the time it makes the considerable journey to the rifled part of the barrel. : )

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linoww posted this 28 January 2009

reposted

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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JetMech posted this 29 January 2009

"Of course most people already probably do this and i'll seem like an idiot for repeating it."

Then you'll have guys like me who are saying “Gee, I'm an idiot! Why didn't I think of that  ?:thumbsup:

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KenK posted this 08 February 2009

At 2 3/4” this is not a great group but I think this bullet shows promise.  10 shots at 100 yards out of my 1903.  Nice even group with no gross fliers. 

Regarding another thread about lube purging, those faint blue streaks were tiny specks of lube on the target that I smeared with my finger so you could see them.

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35Whelen posted this 08 February 2009

  KenK tell us about that bullet. I like it!

  35W

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cityboy posted this 08 February 2009

KenK

That looks like a Redding-Saeco # 301 bullet, am I correct? I have never gotten decent accuracy with that bullet in spite of expending considerable effort fitting the bullet to the throat of my 03A3 with a 2-groove barrel. Or, in fact,  in any  barrel.

Jim

 

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gwindisch posted this 13 February 2009

I've had great results with SAECO 315PBB as cast.Scrap lead. 11 gr. unique. Lube...Scented candle (your choice) for essense and adhesive; Terp. based paste wax (your choice)for lubricant. Shave ingredients (about 50/50) into plastic jar, dump onto paper plate, air dry (24 hrs) and shoot.If you and your rifle do your part you'll get 1 1/2 to MOA. George

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KenK posted this 06 March 2009

I'm not exactly sure what mould it is other than a pre-Redding, Saeco.  I've got another one exactly the same that was cut with the gas check shank.  It has been sent out to have the shank bored out.  I'm real curious to see if the longer driving band makes it better or worse.

I did manage to coax this real nice 100 yard group out of my 1903 with it this afternoon.  11.2 grains of 2400.

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linoww posted this 06 March 2009

Nice group!

 I picked up a pre Redding SAECO about 180g.Its a nice slightly tapered FP bullet.The only problem is thee seller didn't tape the cavities together and it got beat up on one driving band pretty bad.I got it straightened out,but it really saddened me as it was nearly new and came with handles for only $71 shipped to my door.I was surprised you didn't bid on it.I shot 10.5 2400 with the Pope 308403 and it showed promise althouhg the standard dev's were in the mid 20's as opposed to the single digits with 7.2 of Bulls Eye.I am running into weird fouling issues with the White label NRA lube and getting a buildup about 10” into the barrel and a bit in front of the throat.Maybe if i can deduce this is causing my occasional wide shots i can get 10 shot groups closer to 1” more often.I may be dreaming though! I plan on shooting plainbase class with it in Spokane this month and really hope to not get too embarrassed.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 06 March 2009

linoww wrote: Maybe if i can deduce this is causing my occasional wide shots i can get 10 shot groups closer to 1” more often. George  

I'm thinking about converting over to 3 shot groups so I can have a 1/2 moa rifle, “If I do my part". : 0

 

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linoww posted this 07 March 2009

 

I'm thinking about converting over to 3 shot groups so I can have a 1/2 moa rifle, “If I do my part". : 0

 

Funny to us, but i read a mainstream gunrag where 3 shot groups were used, with the ” best 2 shots” in each group noted.The fellows theory was the third off shot was always shooter related, not the gun or loads fault.I guess you cant be honest or the gun companies or you wont get all the perks.

On another note i shot the 308403 load yesterday after work in perfect conditions.Of the three 10 shot groups none were under 2.5” What does Carlie Brown say when Lucy pulls the football away just before he kickes it? Aaaauugggg i think.My reaction was similar but the word i used only had 4 letters and started with “F"

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 08 March 2009

I'd just like one alibi per ten shot group.  Ten straight under 2” is proving a hard nut to crack with what I have.  This target today, in ideal conditions, would have been 1 13/16” except for that one.  Always one.

BTW, I'm working on the recommended Winchester primers now but have not seen much difference. 

I seem to have gotten some beagling with this last batch of bullets from something.  They had been shooting ok but getting an occasional really wild flier.  The bore ride nose fits so tightly I deduced some of the bullets were pushing back into the case.  Today I used the muzzle of a .308 barrel that is slightly larger than my 30/06 to gauge the noses.  I culled just about the same percentage as fliers I was getting.

I think this is as good as it's getting with this rifle/bullet/lube/powder combo.

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35Whelen posted this 08 March 2009

Flyers...arghh...for the last month, I've been working with my as-issued 03A3 looking for a load for Military Benchrest matches. First criteria was, of course, accuracy, but the second and almost as important, was finding a load that would hit exactly where I pointed.

  The first thing I noticed was the tendency of the rifle (?) to throw wide two shots out of ten shot groups:

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linoww posted this 09 March 2009

"BTW, I'm working on the recommended Winchester primers now but have not seen much difference."

I have been using Fed LP primers with 7-8.5 of Bullseye and St-dev. is single digits every time.Accuracy not better though.

"I think this is as good as it's getting with this rifle/bullet/lube/powder combo."

I have come to the same conclusion about my sporterized P-17.I am going to break out a good shooting Ruger 77 and compare accuracy.

Shot today in horrid wind and cold with nothing worth bragging about with the PB 30's.I was surprised when my 62g GC 22-250 load @2100 was shooting a few MOA groups even at 200 in the wind.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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linoww posted this 09 March 2009

I have trouble with issue class for the reasons you have! Having to shoot small groups AND center them with course military sights is frusterating! I have a 1891 Argentine that shoots very small groups,but i can never seem to be able to get them centered day to day.I admire the guys who can hold off a bit and lob em in the 10 ring.Dick Elliot shot an issue 1909 Arg at my last match and amazed me how he was able to adjust hiswindage with little taps and also holdoff for elevation.

George

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 09 March 2009

Not having read this post before I guess I should start my comments beginning with the first post..

Those damn flyers! Welcome to the world of CB shooting! Flyers are a pretty much normal part of the sport. I wonder though, are you taking any fouling or sighting shots before you shoot your string? Are the flyers in the first couple of shots? Do the flyers occur with any regularity in the string? The reason I ask is that you may be trying to figure something out that could possibly be unsolvable.. If you are getting the flyers with a degree of regularity in the beginning or at a certain shot number in your string, why not just drop down to a sighter target and let them go where they please?

The question isnt to solve the flyer, but avoid it from affecting your score target. The way I deal with that is to use that sighter target and let the wild one go and then go back to the score target for the record shot. Pay particular attention to where what number shot goes to see if this is happening at a certain shot in your string.

Shooting small groups takes three things that need to come together at the same time.. Skill, Wisdom and Luck.. Generally 2 out of three aint bad and the luck factor seems to happen with more regularity once you master the other two..

It also doent hurt to shoot enough sighters to pick at least 2 different wind conditions that you can find that 10 ring. It also doesnt hurt to drop down to the sighter to verify in the middle of a string. Who says you have to shoot 10 rounds in succession on the record target?

I shoot Kentucky windage a very large portion of the time.. I hold off instead of adjusting the sight. This way I do not have to constantly figure out where my zero is. I know with issue sights this can be difficult, but Marines do it all of the time. Fortunately I was training in the shooting arts by such a person, Gunnery Sgt. G. David Bailey was an amazing shot and I was honored to have know him. One hell of a man and friend.

There is a marine training manual on this subject floating somewhere out in cyber space, has some nifty tricks on windage in it. When I get some time I will see if I can track it down for you.

The main trick is practice. Somewhere someone is practicing, and when you face him in head to head competition, he will beat you because he practiced more than you did.

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linoww posted this 09 March 2009

Any fouling or sighting shots before you shoot your string?  yes

Are the flyers in the first couple of shots?     no, in fact most often the two or three sigting shots would have been better shot into the group.

Do the flyers occur with any regularity in the string? Not really,but more often not at the start of the group.But not enough to really say there is a tendancy of anysort.

I have shot in near zero wind conditons and have had my similar grouping problems on those days as well. The wider shots do not appear to always be wind reading errors, in my case at least.I am leaning towards bore conditon and loose military chambers with the Pope bullet .

George

 

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 09 March 2009

I've been shooting three foulers and then shooting ten for “record".  I think the first shot probably averages 50-50 going in the group or not. 

I can't pin down when the flier is going to come, it seems just as often to come in the first five as the second five.

In the last target I posted the flier came on shot 7 or 8 and the overall group would have been under 2” if I had fired fired the foulers into the group and quit at ten.

Got 13 shots loaded with 8 grains of Bullseye to shoot this afternoon when I get off.

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linoww posted this 09 March 2009

KenK wrote: Got 13 shots loaded with 8 grains of Bullseye to shoot this afternoon when I get off.

Got to love the clock change and the extra shooting time after work.I'm lucky as my range is 5 minutes from my work.I even slip in shooting break lunch once a week.

I have a Hoch PB that looks very much like your SAECO.it goes .300-.309 and is too small for my military guns.it casts beautiful and i need to find a gun to shoot it in.

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 09 March 2009

I like the long days too.  Work is ten minutes from home and then another 15 seconds from home to the “range".

The 13 shots with BE went 2 1/4” wide and 7” tall. 

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linoww posted this 09 March 2009

"The 13 shots with BE went 2 1/4” wide and 7” tall”

ouch!!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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j35nut posted this 09 March 2009

Just a thought   Some of you might find it interesting reading.   Ideal put out a little book/ pamphlet 32 pages.   "Instructions on how to load and reload shells for the 30-40 KRAG and other high power rifles, 1904."   Deal's entirely with plain base bullets, alloys, etc. of the time.   Dr. Hudson's trial's and successes, along with different top shooter's of the time.   You can get your copy here.   http://www.cornellpubs.com/Templates/Historic-A-IDEAL.htm>http://www.cornellpubs.com/Templates/Historic-A-IDEAL.htm   http://www.cornellpubs.com/Templates/Historic-A-IDEAL.htm>Links to Ideal Catalog Reprints by Cornell Publications   Have fun

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linoww posted this 14 March 2009

Thanks for the link to the old manuals.Looks like a good place to cost me alot of money!

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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KenK posted this 29 March 2009

George, I know you don't like the measurements of the RCBS Cowboy bullet but I keep coming back to it and it continues to shoot better in my 1903 than anything else.  Also defying conventional wisdom, it shoots better seating the crimp groove down to the mouth of the case.

I still can't quite crack that 2” barrier for 10 shots.  This one measures 2 1/16".  Although, according to local weather the wind was gusting to 22 mph while I was shooting. 

I'm really liking this Vihtavuori powder.  This is 8.2 grains of N330. 

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linoww posted this 29 March 2009

KenK wrote: George, I know you don't like the measurements of the RCBS Cowboy bullet but I keep coming back to it and it continues to shoot better in my 1903 than anything else.  Also defying conventional wisdom, it shoots better seating the crimp groove down to the mouth of the case.

I My 308241 shoots seated deeply also.I  have to give the RCBS bullet a try it looks like.I think 10 in 2” AT 100 is a hard thing to get consistently.I get many into 1.5” with hte 308403 or a bit under,but they're usually followed by 3” groups .

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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WILDCATT posted this 13 May 2009

I have the lyman 311291 and use 13 gr RED DOT.at 100yrs the bullets touch.the Lee 312-160-TL does the same.

I do know the 311291 cronys at 1680 in my 1903<14>.

I understand that was an ED Harris recomendation.but I got it from a shooter in RI.

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KenK posted this 24 May 2009

George, I finally got my 10 shot 2” group...by the skin of my teeth.  It looked to be right on 2” with my ruler so I measured with calipers and it came to 1.980.  Maybe not that high of a goal but a goal met anyway.  I tried to back it up today with another but one slipped a little to the left and one a little to the right that opened it up to 2 1/2"

This is with my Lyman 311672 that “Hollow Point Eric” bored out the gas check shank on.

You need to try some of this Viht powder.

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Wineman posted this 06 November 2009

I guess each rifle has a different personallity.

I had a pile of LEE 312-160TL that were visual culls: fins, dimples, streaks etc that I had intended to remelt in the next run. They were cast of modern WW+2% Sn and air cooled. Well I thought what a waste of time to have cast these and not use them, so after a search or two I decided to use Ed Harris “subsonic” Military Rifle load for some practice work with my M1917 Eddystone.

I sorted them +/- 1.5 grains and then lubed them with LLA with a dollop of Johnsons Paste Wax and some mineral spirits. These were left plain base and unsized then loaded over 9.2 grains of Unique and a WLR primer in some 4x fired KA-72 cases that had been neck sized. The OAL was just to kiss the lands at 3.045".

I shot a CMP “A” Course at 50 yards with a reduced target and used a sight setting of 600 yards for a 6:00 hold. After the two prone stages (25 shots) the accuracy had been fair with horizontal stringing which is probably my fault for trying to do too much at one time: new load, getting dark, not used to the M1917 for this course (usually a M1). I decided to give the barrel a patch with some Ed's Red and whoa, I almost could not push the patch through the leading.

The M1917 slugs with a V-block at 0.310 x 0.301 but it has a K31 like throat or rather a lack of throat as the lands start almost immediatly after the mouth of the case. The bore is a bit dark but the crown is good. It shoots jacketed pretty well and is good for 90's on a SR at 200 yards prone with a sling and HXP Ball. It was cleaned with Sweets after the last jacketd shoot. I have shot the same mould with a GC and 17.5 grains of A2400 and kept to 3” at 50 yards counting fliers for 10 shots. Not great I know but this was not after any real load development either.

Based on my research the 9.2 grain load of Unique did not appear to be too hot. I did however use a normal 0.306 mandral in the LEE Collet die; 312-306 is 0.006 so probably too tight a grip on the bullet. I did pull one and it did not appear to be swaged down by the tight neck. There was only one coat of LLA+JPW.

For the next time:

More lube, less powder, and expander from a 303 British or should I just remelt and stick with Gas Checks? I am not really concernded that the accuracy may not be stellar but I just want a load for practice and not have to work too hard after firing scrubbing all the lead out.

Wineman

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tturner53 posted this 06 November 2009

Hey Wineman! I'll get your mold back to you this coming week, with some bullets. I don't know how much help this is, but I've been having very good luck with Bullseye for PB loads, ala Ed Harris style.

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