Best Bullet for 50' Indoor Competition ?

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Last Post 12 June 2012

Standard Member

ConRich posted this 28 December 2007

I would like to participate in the 50' indoor pistol matches that my club runs during the winter months. The problem is that I have been reloading with jacketed bullets for many years but have very little experience with cast lead bullets. We can not use jacketed bullets at our indoor range.

I will be shooting a S&W Model 15, .38 Special with a 4” barrel.

My questions are, what type and weight bullet should I choose for this type of competition ?

If I buy a mold to cast my own, what are the pro's and con's of the “Tumble Lube” vs the “Size & Lube” type of bullets ?

TIA,

Rich

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Standard Member

CB posted this 28 December 2007

Hi Rich For what you are shooting I would go with a wadcutter 148 to 158 gr. Run with a charge of bullseye of 1.9gr and you should be in the ball park. Nice load, mild recoil.

Myself personally, I prefer a size and lubed bullet.

It is my opinion that tumble lubed bullets are messy to deal with. JMHO If you go this route you will possibly need to get a Lee push through sizing die also.

Have you measured the cylinder throats on your revolver to see what diameter bullet you will need to use?

You may find that Lee doesn't offer a standard tuble lube mould in the size you will need.

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 29 December 2007

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for your reply to my questions. I do have a RCBS Lube-A-Matic so all I would need is the propper sizer and top punch for the bullet that I choose to go with.

You mentioned “Cylinder Throat Size", is that the measurment that is used to determine the bullet size? I always thought that it was the bore groove diameter that determined bullet diameter. As I said, my knowledge of cast bullet reloading is limited.

So, after I measure the cylinders, I'm sure that they won't all be the same, should I use the largest or smallest, or an average for my “Cylinder Throat” measurment ? Then how much larger than that should the sized bullet be?

Thanks again for your help,

Rich

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 29 December 2007

IMHO, there are two ways to do this:

Cast any wadcutter from any lead alloy, hardness isn't important. Lube with a .358 sizer and only fill the bottom lube groove with NRA formula lube. Seat the bullet at least below the case mouth. Don't crimp, just flatten out the belling. Load with 2.7 grains of Bullseye.

Do the same thing, but use Remington 148 HB wadcutters.

I shot NRA 50 foot gallery bullseye for about 10 years in the 1970's. Your Mod.15 will hold the X-ring with no problem. Brass condition is much more important than anything else, same lot, no cracks, same length, etc. This is a game about shooting skills, not gun accuracy, as any high quality revolver with hold the X-ring at 50'.

Ric

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 29 December 2007

Thanks Ric, I'll pick up some 148gr wad cutters and see what I can do with them. I have been using some 158gr cast round noze with 3grs to 3.5grs of Bullseye but can't get them to group well. They are all in the black, but not grouping as tight as I would like. BTW, I do my testing from a bag on a bench to eliminate the human error part of the equation

Rich

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CB posted this 29 December 2007

Well I have been taught that you measure the size if the cylinder throat for a couple of reasons.

1) to ensure you have consistency in the diameter of the throats which will affect accuracy

2) to ensure you are using the correct diameter bullet to achieve the best accuracy

You can also find out if you have a mis-machined cylinder, which would be a detriment to accuracy.

I have a Ruger BH in 30 carb that has cylinder throats of .313, but the bore is .308. I could not get any decent accuracy until I started using a 32-20 bullet sized to .312. Now I treat it like a 32 mag, and it seems to like that.

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CBA Member

RicinYakima posted this 29 December 2007

Rich,

Jeff is correct in that you want the bullets to be as large as the cylinder throats. Avoid cast commercial wad-cutters if you can. They are too small, too hard and the lube is wrong for light loads. On the phone this morning I was talking to one of the old guys I shot Bullseye with. He said that both the Speer and Hornaday swagged wad-cutters seem to work well.

Shooting 50' gallery is different that what you read for general revolver reloading. Big fat soft and slow bullets work well at 50' for paper punching. It also helps to seat the bullet as deep in the case as you can without deforming the base of the bullet. This allows you to use really small loads of Bullseye powder, 1.5 to 2.0 grains, for minimum recoil and helps on the rapid fire strings.

Barrel time is so long that hand held point of impact will be measurably different from shooting over a bag. Once you get the best load, you will have to center the groups hand held.

HTH, Ric

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 29 December 2007

Thanks Fellas,

I measured my cylinders, they are all 0.357". If I cast my own bullets, what size sizer die should I order ?

What would be the best lead alloy and lube to use ?

Thanks again for your help,

Rich

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CB posted this 29 December 2007

I would get a .357 sizer and use either wheel weights or comparable alloy. It doesnt need to be hard lead. Lube is a matter of personal preference. 50/50 beeswax/alox will workfine or what ever you use most of. If you wouldnt be shooting over 900 fps, anything would work.

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 05 January 2008

Thanks Guys for all the advice. I have sent for some 148gr Remington HBWC bullets, and someHornady 148gr HBWC bullets to try out, I will seat them deep on top of a light load of Bullseye and play with that for a while. I also have some Tightgroup that I would like to experiment with.

I noticed that most of you suggested that the bullet should be seated DEEP. This makes a lot of sence, 2.8grs to 3grs of bullseye in a 38 Special case leaves a LOT of air space between the bullet and the powder. Seating the bullet deeper should help.

When the new bullets arrive I'll put this theory to the test.

Thanks for the help,

Rich

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 07 January 2008

Rich,

In S&W revolvers their 18-3/4” twist won't give target accuracy with 148 wadcutters using light loads, due to inadequate stability. You also have to drive cast solid-based or double-end wadcutters a bit harder than soft swaged factory type HBWCs to get best grouping.

As for measuring the cylinder throat diameter, the best way to do this is to disassemble the cylinder from the yoke assembly, and using a beveled, flat-faced nylon or brass punch, holding the cylinder firmly on a non-marring bench block, drop pure lead roundballs or soft lead bullets into the chambers from the rear, and gently tap them out through the front of all six chambers and check them with a micrometer. This gives a more accurate measurement than trying to use a vernier or dial caliper. Most S&W revolvers I've slugged have cylinder throats of .3585-.3590 and require at least soft .358 bullets. I've never had bullets as small as .357 shoot very well in any .38 target revolver I've tried them in. And while factory type HBWC bullets seem to group best when flush-seated, like the factory rounds, I've had best results with DEWCs seating them out slightly and lightly taper crimping in the normal crimp groove provided. Look up my articles in the FS on reloading .38 wadcutter ammo for more info.

I've gotten best accuracy using the Saeco #348 double-end, bevel based wadcutter cast about 10 BHN, using 1-1/2 pounds of linotype to 5 pounds of pure lead. I load these as-cast, unsized, at their full .360 diameter. Only minimal lube is needed. Too much lube enlarges groups. I use either Lee Liquid Alox diluted 50-50 with mineral spirits or Rooster Jacket diluted 50-50 with water. Use one “coffee scoop” of diluted lube to a coffee can of bullets. Agitate gently inserting the end of a metal coffeee can into the tapered end of an empty plastic Folgers coffee container, tip the shaker end-to-end 25 times and pour onto a cookie sheet covered with waxed paper to dry overnight.

I do not resize fired cases, because typical dies are dimensioned for jacketed bullets and forcing soft bullets into cases which are too tight wrecks the bases and opens groups. Instead cases are decapped, inside deburred if once-fired factory brass, tumble cleaned, and flared only. For DA revolver use use a “soft” primer such as Remington or Federal and 3.5 grs. of Alliant Bullseye. Seat and crimp bullets in separate steps to avoid bullet deformation. Seat bullets with the sprue cut-off forward and with the bevel base exposed and case mouth to the crimp groove. Last step use the Lee Factory crimp die to full-length profile the loaded round, using only enough taper crimp to remove all mouth flare. In my Colt OM or friend's S&W K-38 these will shoot an inch at 25 yards, and from my BSA Martini rifle with 6X Unertl consistently under 2” at 50 yards.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ConRich posted this 10 January 2008

Hi Ed,

I had already ordered some of the 148gr bullets before your post. They came Monday afternoon and I played with them on Tuesday. They are the hollow base wad cutter type from Hornady.

I seated them deep,(flush with the case mouth) and tried different amounts of Bullseye, then Tightgroup.

I got the best groups using 2.2grs of Bullseye. The Tightgroup isn't working as well, I have reduced the Tightgroup loads down to 3grs but it still seems to be a lot hotter than the Bullseye loads.

How low can I go with these powders, (Bullseye and Tightgroup) ? I will be shooting at 50' indoors so accuracy and reduced recoil is my goal.

Thanks for the help,

Rich

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 10 January 2008

I didn't get as good grouping with Hornady or Speer wadcutters as with Remington. Remington wadcutters still gave good accuracy down to 2.4 grains of Bullseye, about 670 fps.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 10 January 2008

ED,

I did order and receive some of the Remington 148gr HBWC bullets from Midway. They were packaged with the Midway lable (not Remington) but they have the telltail black lube that Remington is famous for.

I haven't tried them yet, but I will real soon.

I would still like to reduce the Tightgroup loads, but don't know how low I can SAFETLY reduce loads with this powder. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rich

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 10 January 2008

I would ask Hodgdon before reducing Titegroup below published data.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 10 January 2008

Thanks Ed, I will do that.

Rich

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 15 January 2008

Hi Ed,

Today I had a chance to try some of the Remington 148gr HBWC bullets with 2.4grs of Bullseye that you recomended. They do shoot a lot better than the Hornady bullets. I will play with the charge a bit to see if I can shrink the groups . Any recomendations ??

You mentioned that with the 18-3/4” twist of my S&W, a 148gr WC isn't the ideal choice. What is the ideal weight bullet for a target load in that barrel? Should I be looking for a lighter bullet, or a heavier one?

Thanks for the advice,

Rich

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 15 January 2008

Rich,

The 18-3/4 inch twist in the S&W stabilizes wadcutters fine at normal factory velocity of around 750 fps, but they start tipping below about 700 fps unless you shoot them in a faster twist, such as a Colt Python with 14".

For light recoil indoors before you try buying a mould you might try the 110-gr. Winchester .357 jacketed HP. This particular bullet has a hollow base and the same length bearing surface as most 125s. I have found it to be extremely accurate. Do NOT go below 3.5 grs. of Bullseye with this 110-gr. bullet in a revolver or you WILL stick a bullet in the barrel! A normal (NOT +P) load is 4.5 grs. of Bullseye for about 900 f.p.s. in a 6” barrel. The +P load is 4.8 to 5 grains of Bullseye which is about 1000 fps from a 6 inch revolver and this will exit a 24” Marlin Cowboy rifle all the time, giving 2 inch 50 yard groups with iron sights and about 1080 fps in which the bullet peforms very well on game, expanding to .54 cal. without fragmenting. I load 6 grs. of Bullseye with this bullet in the .357 Magnum for my snubby revolvers.

If you want to cast a lighter bullet for gallery try a lighter wadcutter such as the NEI #135. This is a 135-gr. bevel-base of conventional target shape, which you could load with as little as 1.5 grs. of Bullseye flush seated for indoor shooting and it will still get out the barrel OK and be relatively stable.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ConRich posted this 15 January 2008

Hi Ed,

Thanks for your reply. The 110gr Winchester bullet sounds like a winner but we are not allowed to use jacketed bullets at our indoor range.

The NEI # 135 looks interesting. Who is NEI, and where can I find their molds ?

Rich

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Standard Member

CB posted this 15 January 2008

NEI moulds can be found at this address. They make a great aluminum mould:

http://www.neihandtools.com/>http://www.neihandtools.com/

The great thing about the wad-cutter bullets is just that, they punch a hole in the target like a paper punch. A lot easier scoring!

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 16 January 2008

Dan,

They are a bit pricy compared to the Lee aluminum moulds that I have been looking at.

Thanks for sending the link,

Rich

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 16 January 2008

I have found that in bullet moulds you do get what you pay for. If you plan to cast alot, the money spent for quality LBT or NEI moulds is very well worth it in terms of increased production, quality and lack of frustration.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Standard Member

CB posted this 16 January 2008

Ed is right, like most products you get what you pay for. But Lee remains viable so their product's aren't junk or you'd hear about it on the web and they'd be out of business. I think John Lee runs a good company.

If you decide to try the Lee 38 wadcutters, the fine groove 148gr is for the tumble lube. Get a 6 cavity mould, tumble lube the bullets and shoot all day and night. The other 148gr WC is for a conventional sizer/lubricator of any manufacturer. I have this design in an old H&G mould which is accurate. I don't have any experience with the tumble lube design.

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 16 January 2008

Ed,

Where can I find LBT molds ? Would you send me a link please.

TIA

Rich

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 17 January 2008

Veral Smith is one of the co-moderators of this Board, his web page is

http://www.lbtmoulds.com/

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 18 January 2008

Ed,

Veral Smith's web site is loaded with information, thanks for sending the link.

Rich

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Standard Member

ConRich posted this 23 January 2008

Hi Ed,

I have some of the Remington 148gr HBWC bullets and want to use Bullseye powder. I will be shooting in a match this Sunday and need to get a load worked up for that match. The match is 50ft indoors. The gun is a S&W model 15 with a 4” barrel. What would you recomend for a powder charge, and what would you recomend for COAL? Would you size the brass or not? Would you crimp, or not ?

Thanks for your help,

Rich

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 24 January 2008

Rich,

If you have older Hercules Bullseye load 2.7-2.8 grs. of Bullseye.

If you have current Alliant Bullseye best accuracy will be with 3.0-3.1 grs. of Bullseye, which approximates the velocity of factory wadcutter ammunition. If you want to reduce recoil, you may safely reduce the charge with current Alliant Bullseye down to 2.4 grs. and accuracy will be OK, but possibly not as good as with the full load. With older Hercules Bullseye velocities are uniform and accuracy satisfactory down to 2 grains.

I have found that the Remington HBWCs shoot best when loaded in unsized cases which have been decapped, lightly inside deburred to remove the sharp wire edge, flared enough to hand start the bullet to the first band, charged with 3 to 3.1 grs. of Bullseye and flush seated to the same length as factory wadcutter ammo. Last step is to full length size and profile the loaded round in the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die, applying no more taper crimp than necessary to remove all mouth flare and permit easy chambering.

I have found that “wadcutter” brass having a cannelure under the base of the HBWC bullet is thinner walled and works better than other cases from service loads having a cannelure closer to the mouth.

If you have only sized brass and not fired wadcutter brass, use an RCBS .38 S&W “Cowboy” expander plug to expand and flare your cases, so that you don't damage the base of the soft HBWC bullets trying top mash them into case mouths which are too tight. See: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=188113&t=11082005>http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=188113&t=11082005

Product #: 188113 Manufacturer #: 20357 Our Price: $26.49

RCBS Cowboy Expander Die 38 S&W

Built to slightly different dimensions than the regular RCBS dies to allow optimum expanding needed to load great lead bullet ammo. Heat treated for a more authentic appearance. Handsome brass lock rings and period style packaging complement these premium dies. Shellholder sold separately.

Attention! Please note the estimated delivery days indicated by the “Status". Since MidwayUSA does not stock these products, we order from our vendors upon receiving your order. Therefore, “Special Orders” cannot be cancelled and the product may not be returned.

In a 6” K-38 or Colt Officer's Model Match the Remington HBWC bullets, loaded in this manner will shoot 3/4” groups at 25 yards and should be close to one-hole accurate at 50 ft. if your gun is clean to start with, ranges and indexes correctly.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 10 November 2010

I'm digging up old stuff here, but I don't see much info available for target loads in a .357 Mag. revolver. Like a fool I sold my K38 long ago. Now I have a nice older Model 19 .357 6” and a Ruger 3 screw Blackhawk 4 5/8 .357 to work with. I've accumulated a lot of .357/.38 molds over the years, but what I think may be the best match candidates are an old Lyman 358432 158 wc, an old Lee 358-140 WC pb, and a Lee TL 358-150 SWC. Anybody shooting a .357 for bullseye work?

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CBA Member

tturner53 posted this 12 June 2012

The quest goes on. I found a really nice old K38 and have been playing with that. To my surprise it is not magic and shoots about the same as the Model 19, which may say something about my shooting. I'm about to give up on wadcutters as they don't group as well as the surprise bullet, the Lee 358-125 RF. I load it as cast using Ed's method on the brass over 3.6 gr. of Bullseye and Federal 100 SP primers. Best so far off the bench is 1 13/16” 9 shot group with a *&%$# flyer out to 2 1/2” for the 10th shot. The Lee 148 WC conventional groove bullet hovers around 2 1/2” and is tipping. That's also over 3.6 gr. Bullseye since the measure is throwing so well I hate to mess with it but may try speeding up the wcs to see if that helps. Unfortunately when I compete with this gun I have to stand up like a man and those little clusters open right up! Still, I want the best ammo I can make and so continue the search. Tried several factory wcs, the black gooey ones and Hornadys waxy stipled job. No better than my home made so far. May try a heavyweight like a 200 gr. LBT or 190 gr. Ranch Dog. You never know.

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CB posted this 12 June 2012

Since this thread has been reincarnated... has anyone tried using a Lyman M die to uniform the seating area of a case for wadcutters? Is this worth doing, or would it still be better to use unsized cases. Wadcutters are starting to fascinate me for some reason.

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 12 June 2012

The M die or RCBS Cowboy expander is fine if you chambers are loose enough that you must size cases in order to prevent bullets falling too deeply into the case before crimping. Using either to flare unsized cases does no harm if bullets are still a snug fit in the neck until you can separately crimp them.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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