Best Bullet for 50' Indoor Competition ?

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  • Last Post 12 June 2012
ConRich posted this 28 December 2007

I would like to participate in the 50' indoor pistol matches that my club runs during the winter months. The problem is that I have been reloading with jacketed bullets for many years but have very little experience with cast lead bullets. We can not use jacketed bullets at our indoor range.

I will be shooting a S&W Model 15, .38 Special with a 4” barrel.

My questions are, what type and weight bullet should I choose for this type of competition ?

If I buy a mold to cast my own, what are the pro's and con's of the “Tumble Lube” vs the “Size & Lube” type of bullets ?

TIA,

Rich

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Ed Harris posted this 12 June 2012

The M die or RCBS Cowboy expander is fine if you chambers are loose enough that you must size cases in order to prevent bullets falling too deeply into the case before crimping.  Using either to flare unsized cases does no harm if bullets are still a snug fit in the neck until you can separately crimp them.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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CB posted this 12 June 2012

Since this thread has been reincarnated... has anyone tried using a Lyman M die to uniform the seating area of a case for wadcutters? Is this worth doing, or would it still be better to use unsized cases. Wadcutters are starting to fascinate me for some reason.

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tturner53 posted this 12 June 2012

The quest goes on. I found a really nice old K38 and have been playing with that. To my surprise it is not magic and shoots about the same as the Model 19, which may say something about my shooting. I'm about to give up on wadcutters as they don't group as well as the surprise bullet, the Lee 358-125 RF. I load it as cast using Ed's method on the brass over 3.6 gr. of Bullseye and Federal 100 SP primers. Best so far off the bench is 1 13/16” 9 shot group with a *&%$# flyer out to 2 1/2” for the 10th shot. The Lee 148 WC conventional groove bullet hovers around 2 1/2” and is tipping. That's also over 3.6 gr. Bullseye since the measure is throwing so well I hate to mess with it but may try speeding up the wcs to see if that helps. Unfortunately when I compete with this gun I have to stand up like a man and those little clusters open right up! Still, I want the best ammo I can make and so continue the search. Tried several factory wcs, the black gooey ones and Hornadys waxy stipled job. No better than my home made so far. May try a heavyweight like a 200 gr. LBT or 190 gr. Ranch Dog. You never know.

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tturner53 posted this 10 November 2010

I'm digging up old stuff here, but I don't see much info available for target loads in a .357 Mag. revolver. Like a fool I sold my K38 long ago. Now I have a nice older Model 19 .357 6” and a Ruger 3 screw Blackhawk 4 5/8 .357 to work with. I've accumulated a lot of .357/.38 molds over the years, but what I think may be the best match candidates are an old Lyman 358432 158 wc, an old Lee 358-140 WC pb, and a Lee TL 358-150 SWC. Anybody shooting a .357 for bullseye work?

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Ed Harris posted this 24 January 2008

Rich,

If you have older Hercules Bullseye load 2.7-2.8 grs. of Bullseye.

If you have current Alliant Bullseye best accuracy will be with 3.0-3.1 grs. of Bullseye, which approximates the velocity of factory wadcutter ammunition. If you want to reduce recoil, you may safely reduce the charge with current Alliant Bullseye down to 2.4 grs. and accuracy will be OK, but possibly not as good as with the full load. With older Hercules Bullseye velocities are uniform and accuracy satisfactory down to 2 grains.

I have found that the Remington HBWCs shoot best when loaded in unsized cases which have been decapped, lightly inside deburred to remove the sharp wire edge, flared enough to hand start the bullet to the first band, charged with 3 to 3.1 grs. of Bullseye and flush seated to the same length as factory wadcutter ammo. Last step is to full length size and profile the loaded round in the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die, applying no more taper crimp than necessary to remove all mouth flare and permit easy chambering.

I have found that “wadcutter” brass having a cannelure under the base of the HBWC bullet is thinner walled and works better than other cases from service loads having a cannelure closer to the mouth.

If you have only sized brass and not fired wadcutter brass, use an RCBS .38 S&W “Cowboy” expander plug to expand and flare your cases, so that you don't damage the base of the soft HBWC bullets trying top mash them into case mouths which are too tight. See: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=188113&t=11082005>http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=188113&t=11082005

Product #: 188113 Manufacturer #: 20357 Our Price: $26.49

RCBS Cowboy Expander Die 38 S&W

Built to slightly different dimensions than the regular RCBS dies to allow optimum expanding needed to load great lead bullet ammo. Heat treated for a more authentic appearance. Handsome brass lock rings and period style packaging complement these premium dies. Shellholder sold separately.

Attention! Please note the estimated delivery days indicated by the “Status". Since MidwayUSA does not stock these products, we order from our vendors upon receiving your order. Therefore, “Special Orders” cannot be cancelled and the product may not be returned.

In a 6” K-38 or Colt Officer's Model Match the Remington HBWC bullets, loaded in this manner will shoot 3/4” groups at 25 yards and should be close to one-hole accurate at 50 ft. if your gun is clean to start with, ranges and indexes correctly.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ConRich posted this 23 January 2008

Hi Ed,

I have some of the Remington 148gr HBWC bullets and want to use Bullseye powder. I will be shooting in a match this Sunday and need to get a load worked up for that match. The match is 50ft indoors. The gun is a S&W model 15 with a 4” barrel. What would you recomend for a powder charge, and what would you recomend for COAL? Would you size the brass or not? Would you crimp, or not ?

Thanks for your help,

Rich

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ConRich posted this 18 January 2008

Ed,

Veral Smith's web site is loaded with information, thanks for sending the link.

Rich

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Ed Harris posted this 17 January 2008

Veral Smith is one of the co-moderators of this Board, his web page is

http://www.lbtmoulds.com/

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ConRich posted this 16 January 2008

Ed,

Where can I find LBT molds ?  Would you send me a link please.

TIA

Rich

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CB posted this 16 January 2008

Ed is right, like most products you get what you pay for. But Lee remains viable so their product's aren't junk or you'd hear about it on the web and they'd be out of business. I think John Lee runs a good company.

If you decide to try the Lee 38 wadcutters, the fine groove 148gr is for the tumble lube. Get a 6 cavity mould, tumble lube the bullets and shoot all day and night. The other 148gr WC is for a conventional sizer/lubricator of any manufacturer. I have this design in an old H&G mould which is accurate. I don't have any experience with the tumble lube design.

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Ed Harris posted this 16 January 2008

I have found that in bullet moulds you do get what you pay for. If you plan to cast alot, the money spent for quality LBT or NEI moulds is very well worth it in terms of increased production, quality and lack of frustration.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ConRich posted this 16 January 2008

 Dan, 

They are a bit pricy compared to the Lee aluminum moulds that I have been looking at.

Thanks for sending the link,

Rich

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CB posted this 15 January 2008

NEI moulds can be found at this address. They make a great aluminum mould:

http://www.neihandtools.com/>http://www.neihandtools.com/

The great thing about the wad-cutter bullets is just that, they punch a hole in the target like a paper punch. A lot easier scoring!

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ConRich posted this 15 January 2008

Hi Ed,

Thanks for your reply. The 110gr Winchester bullet sounds like a winner but we are not allowed to use jacketed bullets at our indoor range.

The NEI # 135 looks interesting. Who is NEI, and where can I find their molds ?

Rich

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Ed Harris posted this 15 January 2008

Rich,

The 18-3/4 inch twist in the S&W stabilizes wadcutters fine at normal factory velocity of around 750 fps, but they start tipping below about 700 fps unless you shoot them in a faster twist, such as a Colt Python with 14".

For light recoil indoors before you try buying a mould you might try the 110-gr. Winchester .357 jacketed HP. This particular bullet has a hollow base and the same length bearing surface as most 125s. I have found it to be extremely accurate. Do NOT go below 3.5 grs. of Bullseye with this 110-gr. bullet in a revolver or you WILL stick a bullet in the barrel! A normal (NOT +P) load is 4.5 grs. of Bullseye for about 900 f.p.s. in a 6” barrel. The +P load is 4.8 to 5 grains of Bullseye which is about 1000 fps from a 6 inch revolver and this will exit a 24” Marlin Cowboy rifle all the time, giving 2 inch 50 yard groups with iron sights and about 1080 fps in which the bullet peforms very well on game, expanding to .54 cal. without fragmenting. I load 6 grs. of Bullseye with this bullet in the .357 Magnum for my snubby revolvers.

If you want to cast a lighter bullet for gallery try a lighter wadcutter such as the NEI #135. This is a 135-gr. bevel-base of conventional target shape, which you could load with as little as 1.5 grs. of Bullseye flush seated for indoor shooting and it will still get out the barrel OK and be relatively stable.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ConRich posted this 15 January 2008

Hi Ed,

Today I had a chance to try some of the Remington 148gr HBWC bullets with 2.4grs of Bullseye that you recomended. They do shoot a lot better than the Hornady bullets. I will play with the charge a bit to see if I can shrink the groups . Any recomendations ??

You mentioned that with the 18-3/4” twist of my S&W, a 148gr WC isn't the ideal choice. What is the ideal weight bullet for a target load in that barrel? Should I be looking for a lighter bullet, or a heavier one?

Thanks for the advice,

Rich

 

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ConRich posted this 10 January 2008

Thanks Ed, I will do that.

Rich

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Ed Harris posted this 10 January 2008

I would ask Hodgdon before reducing Titegroup below published data.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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ConRich posted this 10 January 2008

ED,

I did order and receive some of the Remington 148gr HBWC bullets from Midway. They were packaged with the Midway lable (not Remington) but they have the telltail black lube that Remington is famous for.

I haven't tried them yet, but I will real soon.

I would still like to reduce the Tightgroup loads, but don't know how low I can SAFETLY reduce loads with this powder. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rich

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Ed Harris posted this 10 January 2008

I didn't get as good grouping with Hornady or Speer wadcutters as with Remington. Remington wadcutters still gave good accuracy down to 2.4 grains of Bullseye, about 670 fps.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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