What the heck is in it?

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  • Last Post 07 July 2015
CB posted this 27 December 2007

Hi all,

    With no disrespect to all of the great lubes available, I have in my possesion the best ever bullet/bore lube. It is not my formula, I have never made any lube. How can one find out what is in a lube and how to duplicate the recipe? The inventor took the formula to his grave. Any and all help is appreciated.

                                                                                Roy

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CB posted this 27 December 2007

Well Roy What lube is it, the formula may be floating around here in cyberspace. As for finding out what is in it. A mass spectrometer might be able to tell you this. It is reverse engineering. However it could be very costly.

I have experimented for about 2 years with making lubes, looking for the coup de gras of bullet lube.

Most bullet lube has a base wax, such as paraffin or bees wax.

Then there is some type of lubricant oil or grease.

Some add caranuba, some add stp or some other type of ingredients to achive a desired effect.

Then you need a binding agent. In days of old and even still used today is Ivory soap. The ingredient in the ivory that is needed as the binder is sodium stearate.

The real trick is to figure out how much of each to use. Then you have to figure out in what order to add the ingredients, how hot to cook it, how long to cook it, etc...

For instance, contrary to how some folks do it, if I were to put caranuba wax in my lube, I would melt that first because it is a hard wax and it would leave small globs of unmelted wax in your mix if you add it last.

One thing to be very mindful of is this, when you make lube, you have to usually heat it to the ragged edge of combustion. This means it is gonna smoke. You have to do this in order to get all of the ingredient to blend together so they do not separate when it cools down. The sodium stearate helps with this.

Some recipes call for you to allow the lube to cool in the cook pot to check if it separates.

One other thing to mention... This is not an activity you want to try in the house, especially if you are married! Trust me here.

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CB posted this 27 December 2007

Here is a link to an old discussion on Felix's Lube that may help you.

http://www.castpics.net/RandD/felixlube/felixlube.htm

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454PB posted this 27 December 2007

I made my own lube for many years, used a lot of different recipes, and finally settled on 50/50 Alox/beeswax. I was running low, and after researching the cost and hassle of buying Alox and beeswax, I decided it was easier to buy it premade from Lars45 of the castboolits forum. For $30, I received 18 sticks of his BAC (beeswax, Alox, and Carnuba) lube. I haven't used any of it yet, but it gets rave reviews from those that have.

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CB posted this 27 December 2007

The name of the product is BEST LUBE. It was made by George Forest in Shandaken, New York until the mid sixties. On many occasions I have seen him bite, chew and swallow his lube, a testament to its non toxic nature. Mr Forest lived 99 years. The base ingredient is vegtable oil. The lube will remove lead deposits from a fouled bore simply by firing rounds with this lube on them. My intention is to save the formula from disappearence, I have many hundred sticks still and am a senior citizen. There may be plenty to last my lifetime. BEST LUBE is what I have used for over forty years exclusevly. Some of the sticks are over sixty years old and good as new, except for the paper wrappers. Rather than having to disclose his recipe, he chose to have no part of the patent process. To my knowledge, no one has been able to duplicate this lube. I would welcome expertise in examining and testing of this product, pm me. Thanks for your interest.

                                                             Roy

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CB posted this 17 January 2008

Roy,

I was thinking of Olive Oil as a part of the formula. Any thoughts of using olive oil?

Thanks,

Jerry

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CB posted this 18 January 2008

Hey Jerry; I don't know, I myself have never made lube. The price of the lube was always very inexpensive. When I first began buying it, the cost was 35 cents a stick. The last sticks I bought were in the late eighties for 65 cents a stick. After smelling both the oil and the lube, I don't think so. Good thought, thanks. Roy

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Molly posted this 18 January 2008

Umm.  Never tried it for bullet lube, but I'd recommend you be careful with it.  Not only could it weep out of your lube on hot days, but it's the stuff I put on iron skillets to season them with a hard coating.  You just might get the worst case of adherent fouling you ever saw.  Mebby not, but be on the lookout for problems.  Good luck.

Molly

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CB posted this 18 January 2008

Molly,

Thanks, I have been thinking of Safflower oil and use steric acide or ivory soap as a thickener or hardener.

Jerry

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Molly posted this 18 January 2008

miestro_jerry wrote: I have been thinking of Safflower oil and use steric acide or ivory soap as a thickener or hardener.

Jerry Jerry,

I have the same concerns about Safflower oil, as well as canola, etc:  Most natural vegetable oils will form a hard varnish with sufficient heat - and it takes far less heat than is developed in firing a gun!  Granted, the time in shooting a round is very brief, but still ... Not in MY guns.

Stearic acid is another matter entirely.  Despite the concerns of some because of its name, it is NOT significantly corrosive to barrel metals.  When not melted, it is a dry, hard solid that could contribute to proper consistency.  When melted, it makes a good wetting agent and dispersant, so it COULD be effective in holding other ingredients in solution.  It is inexpensive, and it is used industrially as a good lubricant.  Ivory Soap is reportedly 'mostly' stearic acid, so it may work well also.  However, I'd be concerned about what's in Ivory besides stearic acid, and Ivory is MUCH more expensive than commercial Stearic acid.

That said, let me toss in another caveat:  Because bullet 'lubricants' have traditionally used the same types of ingredients as machinery lubricants, it is traditional to think of them as performing the same function (ie, lubrication).  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Lead will not wear off on steel, and needs no lubrication.  Period.  In fact, lead alloys (babbit) are used as lubricants for steel.  If you doubt this, I invite you to try to get lead to adhere to steel by any method that doesn't involve melting the lead and soldering it to the steel.  Think about how many times air rifles are fired at velocities between 700 and 1000 fps without lubricants - and without leading too!

So-called 'lubricants' are really contaminants for the surface of the steel, that prevent lead from adhering.  That's why plumbers sand the ends of copper plumbing that they are joining:  To remove any surface contamination, and allow the solder to wet the copper... or steel.  Most soldering fluxes either etch the metal to provide a fresh surface, or they dissolve any traces of oils and keep oxygen from the surface while it is being wet by the solder.  Lubricants melt from the gunpowder flames and spread out on the surface of the bore, making it difficult for the lead to stick.  That's all they do.  Better lubes spread (wet) better, and don't harden up from the heat.  the best lubes do this while being soft enought to apply easily, without melting in the summer sun.  But they are NOT lubricants.

HTH, Molly

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CB posted this 18 January 2008

Molly,

I do accept your points. I have seen where lead has been soldered to steel, but that is when you are trying to do that. I am starting lean in to synthetic lubes. I own a small farm and grease the tractor and implements with Vavoline SynPower all the time have seen longer life out of many joints and bearings.

I get a really good prices on greases and fluids for the farm, so maybe they may work for bullet lubes mixed with ALOX or Beeswax or both.

The Safflower oil and the Olive Oil is around the house because I like to cook.

Any thoughts on the synthetics?

Jerry

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Molly posted this 18 January 2008

miestro_jerry wrote: Molly,

I do accept your points. I have seen where lead has been soldered to steel, but that is when you are trying to do that. I am starting lean in to synthetic lubes. I own a small farm and grease the tractor and implements with Vavoline SynPower all the time have seen longer life out of many joints and bearings.

I get a really good prices on greases and fluids for the farm, so maybe they may work for bullet lubes mixed with ALOX or Beeswax or both.

The Safflower oil and the Olive Oil is around the house because I like to cook.

Any thoughts on the synthetics?

Jerry

Frankly, I suspect that the 'ultimate' bullet lube may take the form of - or at least contain - a synthetic oil, grease or low MW polyester:  As a class, they are far less subject to thermal or oxidative degradation, and are - in all probability - far better choices for mixing with hardners like stearic acid than vegetable oils.  I have not revisited bullet lubes in something like 20 years or so, and a lot of advances have taken place since then.  If I were to get back into it, I think I would start with some commonly available solid synthetic surfactants- and there are enough of them to keep your grandchildren busy! 

One little trick I developed to sidestep any slow deposit formation in the bore was to simply see if a surfactant or polyester would leave a hard deposit when it was heated enough.  You'd be amazed how many products are just a solution of something hard in a slow evaporating solvent or light oil.  I just took a hotplate and covered it with foil.  When it was hotter than blazes, I'd drop a pinch of material on the surface and watch it.  Almost everything would bubble up and boil to one extent or another.  Most would end up leaving a hard brown char to one extent or another.  A few would evaporate away entirely, but not many.  Those - and the ones which left almost no char, I kept for further development.  And a VERY few would remain liquid, even at the highest temperature the hotplate could reach, which was well above the melting point of lead.   The most stable materials were then judged by how well they spread out on the aluminum.  The best of these were then tested by polishing a bit of steel to bright white metal, and placing a bit beside a lead chip.  If the lube material could prevent the lead from soldering to the steel, then I'd try it out in my rifles.  No magic, nothing fancy, no expensive lab equipment, just pragmatic common sense.

(FYI: Most of the various Alox compounds are what you might call 'pre-oxidized' (ie, pre-burnt) greases and oils.  They are made by oxidizing selected compounds under highly controlled conditions.)

As far as soldering only 'when you want to', if you're a successful farmer, you are far too realistic to think that things happen only when you want them to.  A single broken axle on a bailer that has hit a groundhog hole will convince anyone of that.  Things will happen when the conditions are right, whether we want them to or not! And I speak from sad and bitter experience! (VBG).  Soldering (leading) will happen when the hot gas blow-by etches molten droplets off the edges and sides of a cast bullet and drives them hard against the bore.  Or more precicely, it will happen when the load is hot enough to lower the surface tension of the lead droplets enough to overcome the wetting of the bullet lube.

BTW, I see you are located in Ohio.  Anywhere remotely near Cincinnati?

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CB posted this 19 January 2008

Molly,

I used to live in the Columbus area, Westerville to exact. Now I live in Somerton, nears Barnesville, in Eastern Ohio. I am 30 minutes away from Wheeling WV.

But I wil be gone all day with the kids I teach.

Have a great one,

Jerry

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CB posted this 19 January 2008

Hi Molly; This lube I am chasing will leave deposits from use and it does take on a black color but it does not become as soot. The deposits are still similar in consistancy to the host source. The color appears mostly from burnt powder residue. Five firearms of mine are original new acquisitions of between eight and forty years old. Of these, none have ever had a metal brush through them. The forty year old flattop won back to back state in 2003 and 2004, a testament to Ruger and this lube. Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a salesman, I really am not trying to sell this stuff, just figure out how to avoid loosing it. Any and all help is appreciated. Thanks. Roy

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Molly posted this 20 January 2008

Hi Roy,

I replied yesterday, but somehow it didn't get through. I'll try to summarize.

I tried to google the data about your lube, but all I got was our current discussion.

I have only one suggestion for you. Get an appropriate phone book (maybe whitepages.com) and look up his name. It may stil be listed simply because his widow didn't want to go to the trouble of changing the entry, or because it would be the final curtain (emotionally) for her husband. (I've repeatedly seen both of these reactions among my family and friends.) At the very least, you may find children or other relatives.

Call and explain how much you liked his lube, and ask if he had the formula written down somewhere, and if it would be possible to get a copy of it.

If that doesn't work, I think you're outta luck.

HTH, Molly

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CB posted this 20 January 2008

Hey Molly; The family line does have a trail, but I had let it lie for just a bit too long. George Forest was a friend of my family and we know the decendents but the disposal of his estate happened many years back. Another CBA member has pitched in with a spectrometer report, my hope is to unravel the formula in reverse. I'm going to give it a good effort. Wish me luck, I'll need it. Roy

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Molly posted this 21 January 2008

gunarea wrote: ... Another CBA member has pitched in with a spectrometer report, my hope is to unravel the formula in reverse. I'm going to give it a good effort. Wish me luck, I'll need it. Roy

Yes, you sure will.  I have some experience at back-formulating from GC, IR and spectrometer data.  They'll identify general classes of material pretty reliably, but ID of specific ingredients is shaky - at best.  Then you have to come up with 'How Much' data.  And the guy who tells you he can calculate it from analytical data may have been taught some theory, but he sure hasn't spent much time in the real world.

Nonetheless, if it CAN be done, that's the only approach that will get you there at all.  Who knows, you may even come up with something even better!  I've seen it happen.  Good luck.

Molly

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CB posted this 22 January 2008

Hey Molly; We got the report yesterday and have begun to piece together the elemental compounds. BEST-LUBE has some devoted users with a very diverse educational background. This thing is coming together nicely. Several of the compounds are easy to recgonize for our chemical engineer. That along with some clever history detective work, have already brought much of the formula to light. The more we learn, the easier it seems to get. My excitement at our progress is very high and I am semi paitently waiting for an opportunity to attempt to brew some. Empirical trials will be our only true method of reproducing the formula and we intend to do just that. When we are successful, the formula will be released to the public in George Forests behalf. Thanks for your interest. Roy

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Molly posted this 23 January 2008

Glad to hear it, Roy.  I doubt if you will ever reproduce the formula EXACTLY, but you may come close enough for practical purposes.  And who knows?  Maybe any slight differences will be for the good, and make your version even better.

Good Luck!

Molly

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CB posted this 24 January 2008

Let me know and I will donate to the Georgia Forests.

Jerry

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CB posted this 24 January 2008

Hey Jerry; We will sure let you know if we can get this thing sorted out. Say, weren't you sposed to be out back making sure your barn cats didn't turn into somethings dinner? Roy

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Lloyd Smale posted this 23 April 2008

arent you going to let us know what you found out?

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CB posted this 23 April 2008

I got 13 of them so far. Many with lever guns in various calibers. Mostly CBs, in 30-30, 35 Remington, 45-70 . I did use my 300 RUM on one and it looked like an artillery shell had hit it, that was with a polymer tip 150 grain bullet at 2,900 fps. I did use my Spanish FR-8 in 308 with a 150gr FN bullet on a couple.

Now I am clearing out the thicket where the yotes were nesting and they seem to have moved on. Since then I seem to have gained a couple more barn cats.

My lube is all synthetics, non-petrol based materials, except the beeswax.

Jerry

 

 

 

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gunarea posted this 19 June 2015

Hello folks

     This thread has been dormant for many years. The people working with me to discover secrets lost have given me an opportunity to revisit my mentor and fathers spirit. Two of the team members have since passed with only one of them realizing our success. 

     “Best Lube” has been resurrected! Just over five years of continuous effort has yielded the formula and the recipe. Brewing “Best Lube” is just as critical as the correct amounts of each element. Simply knowing what and how much did not solve the mystery. Right down to individual composition values, ingredients can possess variants rendering batches useless. Equipment used is very similar to what I observed being used fifty years ago. Originally formulated by a shooting expert and his Phd chemist son. It became clear to me, this was a laboratory created product and as such demanded precision in all aspects of duplication. 

     Slightly over three years now of extensive testing by myself and several others loading and shooting cloned "Best Lube” has shown our efforts were not in vain. My personal thanks go out to those who were instrumental in overcoming the hurdles of this project. I have since taught two state level shooting competitors exactly how to brew cloned “Best Lube". They both have their supply secure and the experience to replicate the process.

     Again, I have no desire for profit on Mr. Forrest's brainchild nor do I wish to produce and or sell the product. While this thread may wither away once again, I will never loose the memory of my pursuit. This stuff is simply amazing and I feel blessed to possess the knowledge and now unlimited use of it. Thanks for your attention.

                                                                                                 Roy  

         

Shoot often, Shoot well

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John Alexander posted this 19 June 2015

Roy,

Congratulations on the successful completion of your study.  It all sounds very mysterious and even magical.  

 Are you going to tell us more?

Results.  Give us shooting results. Are the folks with this product going to show at CBA matches and demonstrate its superiority?  I'm sure that there are members willing to try a new BEST LUBE. 

Thanks,

John

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DukeInFlorida posted this 19 June 2015

Those of us shooting LawnSteel have a deep appreciation for this lube!! It works like no other for this, and many other pistol shooting games.....

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gpidaho posted this 19 June 2015

Duke: First post here at the CBA. Good to have you along. See your posts often over at Boolits. Again, welcome GP

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gunarea posted this 19 June 2015

Hello John

     The ingredians in “Best Lube”;

     Dulox                                                       not Alox or Xlox(Canadian)

     Beeswax                                                  first screen, no filter

     Vegatable shortning                              Deep South or Crisco

     Sodium stearate                                     powder or crystal(Ivory soap w/adj.)

     Honey

     Anhydrous lanolin                                 Australian pharmaceutical

     Molybdenum sulphate of iron            technical grade  Mo(so4)3  

     Carnuba wax                                          virgin granulated

     Several trace elements also listed in the mass spectrum analysis were extremely difficult to discern origin. Quantity amount percentage is not part of the analysis. Knowing the ingredients was of great value.  Figuring out how much of each component was not so difficult .  Memories of my youth doing clean up detail was of enormous value. Brewing the recipe correctly using proper equipment is critical. Slightest deviations, rate of  tempature rise/ fall, order of inclusion, ratio, even batch size make profound differences. In the thread “Lube molds” there are photos of students using my equipment to make “Best Lube” for themselves and you can see batch size is rather large. Generally a batch will produce 48 hollow sticks of standard 4” length.

     Detailed notes were kept from each batch attempt. First quality test is always comparison to known standard. Color, consistency, smell, feel and yes, taste.  So many failures the first year.  A well known lube maker contacted me with some advice for my future attempts. His suggestions were well received, noted and one by one implemented. Bear in mind I had never attempted to make lube on my own. Batch after batch of not “Best Lube” came and went. Some straight into the rubbish, some made it to more levels of testing and some went into muzzle loading cuz it was better than lard. At five years I was done and gave up. Vern Washburn(God bless him) would not hear of it and pushed me to try again. Third next batch was the one.  

     It is not my desire to  enter  the lube advantage/disadvantage debates. Shooting only home cast projectiles with “Best Lube” I win state tournaments. Those are all state titles just since 2000.  Sorry about the poor photo, I shake like a dog shitting peach pitts.   Saving “Best Lube” was my primary  goal,  I am happy.   

                                                                                                                        Roy

Shoot often, Shoot well

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DukeInFlorida posted this 20 June 2015

I've been reloading for over 40 years, and casting for thirty of those.

Sometimes it takes me a while to catch on....  I'm happy to be here, and feel it's among friends (fellow casters).

Thanks for the welcome....

gpidaho wrote: Duke: First post here at the CBA. Good to have you along. See your posts often over at Boolits. Again, welcome GP

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John Alexander posted this 21 June 2015

Hi Roy, Thanks for posting the ingredients for Best Lube. That partially satisfies the curiosity but without the recipe as well as the way to mix it the list of materials is, of course, totally useless to someone who was interested in trying it .

Are you keeping this information about the details a secret? Is somebody planning to make and sell the lube? If not, what will keep the information from being lost again after you spent years reinventing it?

Is anybody using Best Lube for rifle shooting?  Is it good for that?  I don't remember seeing anybody using it in the CBA match reports.  Maybe that is just what our heavy and unlimited class shooters need to finally break through the .5 MOA barrier.

John

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gunarea posted this 24 June 2015

Hello John     You are so right on. Mr. Forrest did not patent his lube because he knew the secret would be revealed by time limitation and law. Also he was confident no duplication would be possible without direction from him or his son. Without my history of being his personal slave, my effort would have failed, this I am sure of.      There is a commercial lube producer now involved with testing Best Lube. In Florida, many folks are closely watching and waiting for the opportunity to obtain Best Lube without further begging at my doorstep.     Just now I am out of touch with the world without a forty minute trip down the mountain. Internet contact is once every four or five or eight days. Phone service is not.  When I return to Florida, I'll be much more responsive. I'm not being rude, I just simply can't hear you now.     Testing by others is now much more attractive with my new wealth of Best Lube.  Home cast bullets is my passion. I never consider it a win using a trick or secret unknown to those whom I will enter into the contest with.     With awareness of what is to come, hear this. To my casting brothers and sisters, contact me with verifiable match results using home cast projectiles. At least temporarily, I can tighten your groups. Now please excuse me to go back up.                                                                                                    Roy   

Shoot often, Shoot well

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DukeInFlorida posted this 07 July 2015

Does this mean that you will sell us some of your precious stash of lube, Roy????

You have been extremely generous in sharing a lot of it with the guys already.

Keith has the materials on hand, and your recipe, and all your gear. We are going to try to make a batch in the new couple of weeks, weather permitting. Too damned hot!

We are thinking an electric hot plate, under the pot, would be better than using a turkey fryer, and the MISSING steel plate that you used to protect scorching. What do you think?

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gunarea posted this 07 July 2015

Hey All

    Back from the mountains into Florida heat and humidity. Bleeding from my face has ceased and my beloved reloading room offers air conditioned sanctuary. Although our host did a wonderful job of making us welcome and comfortable, the wife and I became homesick.

    "( Does this mean that you will sell us some of your precious stash of lube, Roy????

You have been extremely generous in sharing a lot of it with the guys already.

Keith has the materials on hand, and your recipe, and all your gear. We are going to try to make a batch in the new couple of weeks, weather permitting. Too damned hot!

We are thinking an electric hot plate, under the pot, would be better than using a turkey fryer, and the MISSING steel plate that you used to protect scorching. What do you think?)"

     No!    Yes!    Too hot??    Missing??   I think; if it is fun you should have a smile on your face, if it isn't fun don't do it. I think; getting old was the most fun ever!! Being old sux!!

     The electric hot plate will not do. Even a double boiler had mixed results. The missing steel plate was moved by myself just this morning at the request of my wife. Good news is the missing steel plate has a convenient handle now. Eddie also has the other twin of the missing steel plate needed. 

     Rob is another student with brewing experience and a stash of cloned Best Lube. When no alternative remains but to enlist my peculiar QC oversight, with restrictions and Whiskey consideration, I will submit to servitude.

     John, these fellows may be everyone's ticket to Best Lube. My original purpose in making Best Lube was to preserve the invention of my dear mentor and insure the cache of mine is lifetime. As Duke mentioned, gifted sticks of Best Lube were frequent and well received. The down side was my cache dwindling. Also I found recipients transformed into shameless beggars willing to descend into the depths of lubeaholism.

     Just now, Best Lube is being subjected to extensive testing by a well known and respected commercial lube manufacturer. The results are highly anticipated. No demands were made nor consideration requested. We will see how this plays out.

     Again I offer this product to legitimate home casting competitors in return for test results. PM me.

                                                                                                        Roy     

Shoot often, Shoot well

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RicinYakima posted this 07 July 2015

Roy,

I am so glad your project has worked to a good conclusion for you. I have saved the original lube you sent me all those years ago, but now that I am not holding them in “reserve” for you, I will use them now.

Ric in Yakima

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DukeInFlorida posted this 07 July 2015

Rick, It's a ill conceived PLOY to get you HOOKED on the best lube ever created.

You'll soon be on your knees, begging Roy for more and more and more.

He'll just smile, as he usually does, and say, “See! I told you so!"

hahahaha Enjoy. It really is the BEST LUBE....

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