.22 Annealed /Exploding GC's!!

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  • Last Post 26 December 2007
linoww posted this 18 December 2007

I annealed some 22 checks to give it a whirl. I seated few by pushing them through a Lee .225 sizer and noticed the edges were almost being cut by the ram. I looked at the unused ones n the jar and about ½ were bent in some way. I picked one up and squashed it into taco with little effort! I couldn't do this with an un-annealed check.

 

 I annealed some more in the same manner as such-

 

 Put them on the electric burner until they turn red, let the thing cool down, when they are cool enough to handle I put them in a baby food jar(with white vinegar) and give them a little agitation to remove scale. Then I put them on a towel to dry. When I agitated them is when they were getting bent! My 30/35/8mm calibers I have done in the same manner are not so delicate .WOW.I threw the 20 or so bullets with the cut check on top of the pot while it was heating up, and got another surprise. They “cooked offâ€? and sounded like popcorn. Every one flung in the air, with report.

 

Any ideas???

 

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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fa38 posted this 18 December 2007

Probably trapped air or a bit of lube turning into a gas  very rapidly.

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RicinYakima posted this 18 December 2007

I'm not positive on the chemistry of this but here is my speculation:

Vinegar is dilute acetic acid (CH3COOH) and will clean the scale off of tarnished brass (copper and zinc) by pulling the oxidized metals from the base pieces. However, some of acetic acid will form metal acetates and adhere to the base metal. When heated to thermal decomposition in the pot, the products are CO2 and H2O and the solid metals. Hence the violent gas release. You can stop this by rinsing in a mild baking soda rinse to remove residual vinegar, but they will tend to re-oxidize.

A solution is to not anneal to the “dead soft” level but only stress relieve them. Put them on a stainless steel cookie sheet on the burner. Put a small metal cup of water in the middle. When the water boils, time it for five minutes at that temperature. Turn off the heat and then let them set until cool. Annealing is a function of temperature and time, so 225 degrees for five minutes is as effective 550 degrees is for five seconds.

HTH, Ric

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linoww posted this 18 December 2007

I do my “bulk” annealing in a short section of threaded pipe in the woodstove during the winter.It works good and you can do 1000 at a time.I am not sure if the vinigar had anythig to do with the “popping"or not,but it was entertaining.It has a flash point of about 110f and is about the temp. they let off.I was amazed how soft I was able to get the thin 22 checks nevertheless.They shot fine and i am going to try them against non annealed checks.In theory I would think they could have the ability to seal the bore better.

 

george

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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CB posted this 18 December 2007

When I anneal checks I do the same as Ric, but we fill the pipe with checks and sawdust. Our theory is if you put something in the pipe to use up the availbale oxygen, then the copper will oxidize less. Then we put them in the tumbler to shine em up a bit..

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linoww posted this 19 December 2007

Jeff Bowles wrote: When I anneal checks I do the same as Ric, but we fill the pipe with checks and sawdust. Our theory is if you put something in the pipe to use up the availbale oxygen, then the copper will oxidize less. Then we put them in the tumbler to shine em up a bit..  "I do the same as Ric,"

You mean the same thing as George?

Ric uses some Rube Goldberg setup on the stove with cookie tins and water ,but he included a bonus science lesson in his response<G>

"we fill the pipe with checks and sawdust"

I put a few slivers of wood to do the same thing.

I still am curios if anybody gets the same supersoft small caliber annealed checks.I have annealed checks for the last 12+ years and never have seen them get that soft.

 

George

 

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Paul Pollard posted this 19 December 2007

Some batches of gas checks seem softer than others, especially .22 cal. If your Lee push thru die is rough, it offers some resistance which causes the finning on the gas check. One batch unannealed, I had to reject about 50, then the rest of the box was okay.

The Lee die which is rough is a good thing. The resistance pushes the gas check on tighter and flatter. If you lube the bullet, the bullet tends to “run away” from the gas check and the gas check becomes cupped.

My home made .225 push thru die offers a little less resistance and does not fin the gas checks most of the time. As I said, some boxes of gas checks seem softer than others. (.22 cal). I would like to see a spring-loaded plunger on top of the die to put resistance on the bullet and seat the gas check more firmly. I think I tried it on the .25 caliber, but can't find it right now. (And no, you're not getting a picture of my bench!) The .30 caliber guys don't have a clue what we're talking about. Those gas checks are really well-made and you can usually put them on with one hand tied behind your back and blindfolded.

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CB posted this 19 December 2007

Sure pick on the 30 cal guys...

No pic of the bench, well that don't seem fair at all..

I wanna see a pic of your pneumatic bump press!

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linoww posted this 20 December 2007

Paul Pollard wrote: Some batches of gas checks seem softer than others, especially .22 cal. The Lee die which is rough is a good thing. The resistance pushes the gas check on tighter and flatter. If you lube the bullet, the bullet tends to “run away” from the gas check and the gas check becomes cupped.

My home made .225 push thru die offers a little less resistance and does not fin the gas checks most of the time. As I said, some boxes of gas checks seem softer than others. (.22 cal). I think I tried it on the .25 caliber, but can't find it right now. (And no, you're not getting a picture of my bench!) I would like to see a spring-loaded plunger on top of the die to put resistance on the bullet and seat the gas check more firmly.  

 The Lee die which is rough is a good thing. The resistance pushes the gas check on tighter and flatter.

 

 I also like your idea on the plunger. I am having a 1.5 deg bump die made in 22 calibers to help with this “issueâ€?. I never lube any bullet before pushing in the Lee die for the reasons you mentioned. 

 

The .30 caliber guys don't have a clue what we're talking about. Those gas checks are really well-made and you can usually put them on with one hand tied behind your back and blindfolded.

 

You and I agree on the 22 stuff, we are both wrong or both right. We need to win a few more matches with them now<G>I am shooting a Varmint For Score match with the jacketed BR guys next month with my 22 cast in a Savage 12.All I want to do is not embarass myself.I did that last month with a Savage 99 in 30-30 with cast. My magic 22 load went “unmagic” once the weather got below 40,so I have to play with lube.I had been getting almost all groups sub MOA with much clustering.(Eagan MX3 -62g w/ 14.5 4759)Now loose 1-1-1/4” groups are happening.Same lot of bullets,powder and primers.It must be lube?? I even checked velocity and adjusted to the summer numbers.Just when I say how great 22's are I have these problems.

Geo.

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Paul Pollard posted this 20 December 2007

The pneumatic bump press would only work on .22 caliber. The cylinders were not big enough to upset the .30 caliber. For .30 caliber sizing, it would start to size, pause, then literally shoot the bullet out onto the floor. Safety glasses were madatory. It would size pretty fast and since it was upside down, you just dropped the bullet into the die nose first and hit the buttons.

It is now configured for PVC wad making, which is very fast. As fast as I can feed the strip into the die and hit the palm button, a new wad is made. Even have to stop now and then to let the compressor build up pressure.

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CB posted this 20 December 2007

Boy talk about a time saver! A wad press that uses air.. Who would have thought.. Beats the way I do it with a rockchucker.

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Paul Pollard posted this 21 December 2007

Jeff!

While setting up my industrial hardness tester, I figured all the math involved with the help of Richard Lee's Modern Reloading 2d Edition. This allowed me to confirm the readings. The tester has a nice dial indicator on it, but it is really a steel tester. The dial indicator is in Rockwell units. By doing the math and the calculations and measuring the indentation, it compared within about 2 bhn of the LBT tester. Kind of crazy, lugging a 200 lb tester to the basement when a 6 oz one does just as well!

My last outing with the .222 was disappointing; now I know why. Some of the bullets were 20 BHN in the last batch. Tested some blocks of the monotype with both testers and some of it is as low as 15, some is as high as 25. Please check your batches as you cast. Don't get into the season with a bunch of less-than-expected hardness on your bullets.

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j35nut posted this 23 December 2007

RicinYakima wrote:  Annealing is a function of temperature and time, so 225 degrees for five minutes is as effective 550 degrees is for five seconds.

HTH, Ric  

Felix over on the Cast Boolit forum said pretty much the same thing a couple years back.   I think it fell on deaf ears for the most part.   I anneal checks to get rid of the spring back after sizing.   I am always looking for a better mouse trap, so I put some checks in a small pan in a toaster oven at 400* for fifteen minutes turned it off and let cool in the oven over night.   They took just as good of anneal for my purpose as getting them red hot and the best part is no scale(oxidation) afterwards to deal with.   good shooting

 

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RicinYakima posted this 24 December 2007

Well, I don't know Felix and don't watch the board that can't spell bullets. But with that said, anybody that agrees with me must be a genius!:D Ric

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j35nut posted this 25 December 2007

He is !!!!

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linoww posted this 26 December 2007

Tested some blocks of the monotype with both testers and some of it is as low as 15, some is as high as 25. Please check your batches as you cast. Don't get into the season with a bunch of less-than-expected hardness on your bullets.

 

My dad was a pressman that worked with the old Linotype eqiupment way back.I found out from him why the alloy could vary.He said they used to add “toning” metal when it would start to cast badly.A company rep would test the alloy and tell them how much to add.He doest remember doing that with Monoype though as it was not remelted as much.It was used for the larger font headlines and the such.I have never gotten soft bullets to shoot in the 22's have you??

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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