Cleaning a rifle

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Last Post 22 August 2008

CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 13 December 2007

I have never owned or shot a blackpowder gun. After watching “Quigley Down UnderÃ¢â‚¬? too many times, I'm thinking about getting a Quigley replica. One thing that holds me back is the cleaning methods I have heard must be used with blackpowder. The replica sellers say the guns are not rated for smokeless powder. So if I did have to use blackpowder I want no part of throwing a new rifle into a bathtub full of hot water.

Is there a “realÃ¢â‚¬? cleaning method for blackpowder arms and if so I'd be interested in learning more. I'm looking at either 45-70 or 45-110. Also, as a first time user, which mould should I be looking at?

Thanks!

Tom

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16 Comments

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Standard Member

JeffinNZ posted this 13 December 2007

Hi Tom.

The best thing about black powder residue is it is very soluble in water so that's what to clean with. Water. Much like the forefathers.

I use cold water with a 'slug' of Murphy Oil Soap in it; regular dish wash it fine. I stopped using hot water years ago as I found I got 'flash rusting' as the water evaporated.

Run quite wet patches down the barrel from the breech end; about 4 snug patches should clean up. Follow up with dry patches and a water dispersant. Done. Can seriously be a 5 minute job.

I shot my .38/303 yesterday. Only five rounds and it was a moist day but the barrel came clean with 4 wet patches.

In my experience it is best to clean the barrel just enough to remove the powder fouling and prevent anything nasty happening on the surface of the metal. If I was to put the electro bore cleaner down the .38/303 and clean it out SPOTLESS it would take 6-10 rounds settle the barrel down again. Sort of like leaving a 'conditioning' in the tube.

Hope this helps.

Cheers from New Zealand

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CBA Member

R. Dupraz posted this 13 December 2007

Tom:

First of all, don't believe all the wild tales about the clean up of black powder rifles. You sure don't have to soak them in the bathtub. As a matter of fact, the cleaning of the rifle is easy but the thing is it can't be put off like in a smokeless gun. Not cleaning and lubing the bore in a black powder arm in a timely fashion will insure it being rusted or worse.

I have two BPCR's that are used regularly . A Shiloh .45x2.4 sharps and a CPA Stevens in 38-55. The Shiloh has 3-4000 rounds through it and the CPA about 1000. Both of them have gotten the same treatment for the past four or five years and the bores are bright as new.

When done shooting for the day, all I do is push patches soaked with a 50/50 Ballistol and water through the bore untill they come out clean. Usually it takes only about two or three. Then push a bore brush with a soaked patch around it up and back. Followed by one dry patch. Then a pure Ballistol patch up and down and that's it. The pure Ballistol is left in the bore. And, I then check it for three days with a Ballistol patch. Never have I found any rust or corrosion. Just make sure that the cleaner is a natural product and not a petroleum derivative. Takes about five minutes

Now there are many Black powder cleaners out there that will probably do the same thing, including ED's Red, I think. Plain old soapy water works fine but then one has to make sure that the bore is absolutely dry followed by some kind of preservative. For me, using Ballistol just keeps it simple and it works.

I don't think you can go wrong with the 45-70. It's easy to find a good black powder load for and the cases, loading dies are relatively inexpensive and readily available as compared to the 110. Also, all the black powder 45-70's that I have seen shoot really well and it would be much easier to sell or trade if that ever became an issue.

As to a bullet mould, short of having a custom one made, the Lyman 540 grain Postell is one of the best. I used one initially for about a year untill I had a custom mould made for my 45x2.4. And the Lyman Postell is well known in the BPCR world for it's accuracy.

Just curious, what replicas are you talking about that are not rated for smokeless?

Regards

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 14 December 2007

RD and Jeff,

First, thanks for the insights on cleaning. Now I'll feel better about buying one of these after I win the lottery.

In my initial search for the Quigley replicas, I found that Buffalo Arms offers an Armi Sport for about $1,00 and a Pedrosoli for about $1,800. Shiloh Arms has one for about $3,100. On the phone with the Bufflao Rams guy I was told that the rifles are designed to be used with balckpowder and they recommend against smokelss but if you “do things rightÃ¢â‚¬? it would probably be ok to smokelss.

As I keep looking and asking it sounds like there are sources besides the two I have run across. Someone suggested Cimmaron Arms and one other I can't recall the name of. Scott Merchant coached me pretty good last night about the pros and cons of the 45-70 vs. the 45-110. First off the cases are different lengths 2 1/8Ã¢â‚¬? vs. 2 7/8Ã¢â‚¬?. Lots to learn I guess until I end up with that lottery ticket.

Thanks again, guys! I'm printing your suggestions off for future use.

Tom

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Standard Member

CB posted this 14 December 2007

Tom:

Your reply prompted a couple of things.

I would stay away from Armi Sport. While I haven't had any experience with them, I do have a shootin friend that started in the BPCR game with one. Frankly, a waste of his money. Nothing but trouble. And everything else that Iv'e seen on the Black Powder forums about them has been nothing but bad.

I believe the Shiloh is rated for factory ammo ie smokeless (45-70). Not sure about the Pedersolie or the C Sharps. However there are many of them out there. Another shooting partner has shot a Pedersolie for quite a while and likes it.

One good source of info is the Shiloh Sharps forum.

Really, it's pretty much the same old thing, you get what you pay for. But I must warn you in advance. This BPCR game is highly addictive!

Regards

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CBA Member

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 14 December 2007

Hi Tom, don't entirely forget the R1 Ruger ... you should be able to land one of these new for $800 or so, and a near mint used one for $700 or less.. some of the later Rugers are coming with pretty plain wood, so watch for those to be cheaper.

If your rules allow these to be used ( some don

Hey a friend & I are playing with reduced capacity cases in 45-70 .... in smokeless powder ....... for your black powder, I am not sure that is any big deal, but if interested in such, email me offline [email protected].

Oh, I have a Ruger3, and he has a genuine HiWall; ... besides the R1, you might take a look at a Browning 78 (g) .... drool drool ...

regards, ken campbell, deltawerkes

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CBA Member

giorgio de galleani posted this 15 December 2007

While you haven't any personal experience with Armisport I have a half dozen guns made by them and am very satisfied.

I have a 44 percussion kentucky rifle with which I get good placements in matches,50 meters from offhand standing,

a 58 three bands enfield,very good shooting

a 69 1842 smooth bore Springfield and a69 rifled musket ,they have frightful recoil with full loads

a 1777 Charleville flintlock that I gave to an infantryman of the Kalbermatten Regiment,in the King of Sardinia service,they reenact the battle of Assietta 1742 when we kicked the french out of their pants in the Alps.

A 1874 sharps cavalry Sharps carbine,I fitted with a nice tang sight by Pedersoli with which I get in the top four in our old west shooter society in italy ( the other guys shoot with yard barrels from yhe various Italian replica makers)

A 92 win replica take down carbine in 357 mag a small jewell as good as the other Marlin cowboy rifles I own.(younger and more athletic competitors outshoot me in cowboy shooting)

A friend of mine loves his 12 ga Win.lever action shotgun,it is made better than the chinese replica.

I am acquainted with Mrs Chiappa the owner ,Mr Berlucchi,the production boss and their daughter ,an active cow girl shooter.

Their guns are well made,with good materials and shoot well.

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CBA Member

giorgio de galleani posted this 17 December 2007

Dear Tom,Being an Italian cowboy shooter ,with the alias Buffalo George Dega,and avid cast bullet shooter from the year1969 I have some firsthand experience with Italian made Sharps replica guns. Metallic cartridge guns are proofed at the Governement Proof House of Gardone Val Trompia at the Cipe pressure values.

Only the paper cartridge percussion models are black powder only.

As far as I know the Armisport actions are milled from a solid forging with a computer robot milling machine while Uberti refinishes by hand a casting.

I presently own a Pedersoli 30-30 rolling block ,two Uberti highwalls an an Armisport 1874 Sharps cavalry carbine.

Regards,Giorgio.

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Standard Member

CB posted this 01 January 2008

The Quigley Rifle is a really nice piece of shootin iron, except for me it's way too heavy, except for bench rest shooting.

If it was a 50 cal rifle, the best cleaning rod is an army surplus M2 HB cleaning rod. I bought one years ago in the depot pack for 50 cents. Haven't tried it on my 45 caliber stuff yet, but it is extra long.

Jerry

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Standard Member

CB posted this 02 August 2008

People will shudder when I say this but I have had the best luck cleaning any rifle, :drillsgt:gun with gasoline. Yes, only use a little, be outside away from everything even an electric motor. It's like playing with nitro but, it is very effective. Our D.I. used to sneak us a little and we got those weapons clean and shiny. I can't say it enough, caution, caution, caution. :drillsgt:

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Standard Member

CB posted this 02 August 2008

Tom, I see your Quigley post has been resurrected. I don't know if you're still thinking about it but I have a Shiloh Long Range Express in 45/70 with a set of MVA Long Range sites on it that I'm thinking about selling. The Rifle was on the cover of the FS. If interested we can talk.

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Standard Member

snippyboy2 posted this 08 August 2008

I'd like to put on my 2 cents worth. to clean a black powder rifle all you need is a bottle of water with a little of dish soap in it, a suitable cleaning rod and a roll of shop paper towels and a little eds red. this pertains to single shot falling block rifles.

wet a piece of paper towel with the water and soap mixture and push it through and do not pull it back. you can use 2 or 3 wet patches then a couple of dry ones, wipe the muzzle to remove the fouling on the outside of the gun. dry things off then wet a patch with eds red and push it through and leave it alone. simple. a lever action repeating rifle would be a pain to do this.

the discussion on suitable black powder rifles, I have some thoughts. the best are the cpa copies of the stevens 44 1/2. the next are copies of the winchester hi wall. I have a browning 40-65. in my opinion the sharps 1874 replicas are cumberson. I won a pederoslia quigley 45-90 at the quigley a few years ago. it comes with ladder open site. I did get a set of pederoslia apature sights put on it and shot it some. I ended up giving it to my soninlaw. the thing kicked more than I wanted. and I had shot a 375 h&h for 20 years. some of my family like the quigley type of gong shoots and they have ubertia 40-65s and they shoot better than most can. they aren't as fancy as some others but they work. of course they need a set of sights.

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 19 August 2008

If you want to use Ed's Red mostly for cleaning guns shot with blackpowder and chlorate primed military ammo, substitute a “fire retardant hydraulic fluid concentrate,” or “rust inhibiting water soluble oil” suited for water hydraulics for four fluid oz. of the ATF in a gallon mix of ER. The resulting mix forms a stable emulsion when mixed in a 50-50 ratio with distilled water (NOT tap water) and is similar to “Moose Milk."

Mix the ER as usual, substituting water soluble oil for 1/8 of the ATF in the mix, (4 oz. if you adding a quart of ATF to mix a gallon of ER). Once the ER is mixed, heat the distilled water just short of boiling, steaming with bubbles just beginning to form, and pour this SLOWLY into the Ed's Red while stirring vigorously.

It should form a pink, soapy looking, frothy liquid about the consistency of Pepto Bismol. I use Arco Emulsiplex or Trimsol, Lyondell Satisol, or Tooltex cutting fluid concentrates. Other water soluble cutting oils are suitable, as long as they DO NOT contain any chlorine or sulfur, which may weep where you don't want them, into the roots of threads, etc. where they may cause stress corrision cracking of stainless alloys.

That's why you use distilled water instead of tap water.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Standard Member

DonH posted this 19 August 2008

I carry a little pump spray bottle of distilled water to the range. A few patches moistened with the water followed by a wet patch wrapped around a bore brush does the trick. I then wipe the bore dry with clean patches then wipe with oil or Ed's Red. Unless you encounter some leading it really is just that simple. Takes me far less time than cleaning a HP rifle fired with jacketed bullets which leave behind copper fouling.

The more messy part of the equation is cleaning the cases after firing with BP.

Regarding the use of smokeless in the replica rifles, guys I know who do it just load to BP pressure levels. Trapdoor data would be appropriate. A 420+ gr bullet fired at BP velocity from a .45-70 will shoot through a buffalo - why the need to hot rod one?

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Standard Member

CB posted this 19 August 2008

Ed, will Ballistol oil work for your suggestion? I know it is water soluble. Thanks again for another great cleaning modification to your ER, now for blackpowder!

You're right Don H, the bore is easy, its them nasty dirty :taz:cases!!!...........Dan