I am really curious...

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Last Post 02 December 2007

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 24 November 2007

I have belonged to the CBA since the early eighties, and have competed in matches. During that same time frame, I shot Schuetzen, Hunter Benchrest, and did a lot of live varmint shooting.

Since joining this forum I have asked some questions with the idea that I might skip some of the mistakes others have made and learn from some things posted here. Apparently, that is not a realistic view of the CBA shooters/posters.

Is everyone that paranoid that Joe Brennan is going to take that information and do another book? If he's the reason nobody posts anything here more informative than the fact that they do most of their shooting during daylight hours...then just ban him.

I asked several months ago about the rifle that some might build to shoot Production Class, like “...what would you do to a Savage..."? Check the responses...

Are the payouts where you guys shoot so much $$$ that you can't share anything for fear of it costing you thousands of dollars?

I thought the reason for the CBA was to share what we as individuals have learned, and promote cast bullet accuracy. I have been to HBR matches and had fellow competitors give me a handful of bullets and say “...try these with XX.Xgr of XYZ powder and see what you think. I designed the 32 Miller Short, which owns Schuetzen these days. I didn't copyright or patent it, I gave it to the community to advance accuracy.

When you bring up accuracy here, the silence is deafening and the screens look like a Montana Bliizard...a whiteout.

This is pathetic.

Rich

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CB posted this 24 November 2007

Rich,

I think you might be suffering from Forumticulitis? :) Joe B has suffered the same thing in discuss not hearing from all the CBA members and all the CBA past champions to fill his book. :)

Us handful of active forum moderators suffer the same thing also, wanting to see more responses and activity from the rest of the forum members. A huge percentage of the successful CBA National Tournament competitors are not members of the forum, I guess because they are not into the databit world? If Jeff hadn't asked for help from me to be a moderator, I doubt that I'd be here because I'm not active in forums, only this.

You have to remember that this forum does not necessarially represent the CBA or its membership. It is an invitation to anyone in data-world wanting to join to view and an invitation to ask and learn about CBs and CB shooting. I don't mean to make fun with the 'ticulitis' stuff or shrug your concern, but this is the way forums are, I'd guess. I usually only look at the lastest post and others may do the same, so to keep your 'production gun' post up and current, you could reply to it and ask similar questions or more detailed questions to put it back under the 'Benchrest Cast Bullet Shooting' title to view as the last post. Hope you understand and hope this helps.....................Dan

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CB posted this 24 November 2007

I think Dan's got a lot of it right. Without more participation it's hard to keep the fire burning. There's been times I posted stuff that I thought was half way decent information or a way to get a good discussion going and the silince was deafening. Maybe it wasn't as interesting or helpful as I thought but after a while you just give up.

The lack of participation by CBA officers and national champs is also a problem because no matter what you know or are willing to share it falls on deaf ears unless you have a “name” in the cast bullet world. You said in another post that we act like a bunch of 8 year olds which I agree with but if more people got involved to break the cycle of the same guys disagreeing all the time the problem would stop.

If people want discussions that interest them they have to be willing to discuss and that isn't happening. My thing is heavy rifles and I readily admit I don't know much about production, plain base, pistols, or black powder so keep quiet when the topics are brought up. Now if you want to talk heavy rifles that's another story. I might not know as much as I think I do but I'll discuss as long as you want.

Pat

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 24 November 2007

My thanks to the two of you. I have just finished reading Joe's book, and it IS a very good primer, but...but, I had thought there might be, somewhere, a detailed description and photos of someone's bullet swaging set up, and how they went about fitting a bullet like 311284 or 311332 to a (for instance)Savage's factory throat and making fat neck cases to fill that oversized throat. Things like that, you know? I read a lot on the www.6mmbr.com forum, and it is full of data for that case, and about forty or fifty posts on the 30BR, forming brass, tips on loading, etc. I guess I had this naive impression that coming here and searching the threads might give me an idea of how to go about modifying and tweaking my 12BV-SS in 308.

Ah me, it just get curiouser and curiouser, with apologies to Alice.

Rich

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CB posted this 24 November 2007

Rich,

I don't have a Savage so can't help you there but might be able to offer some opinions and information on the BR if you have any questions.

I've been thinking more about your post and it seems where some of the forums might have an upper hand is that they have places for guys to post articles where as we don't, we have the FS. It's gotten to the point here where if you post something you're immediately bombarded with the idea that you have to have 600 groups shot by 600 people over the course of 600 years before what you say might hold water. Of course after that you have to run the results back and forth through a super computer to statiscally analyze it and finish up with an approval stamp from the Pentagon. It was a lot easier when you could just write something and leave it up to the individual to decide if they wanted to try it or not without having to show absolute proof that it worked.

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CB posted this 24 November 2007

Hi Rich I have a Savage, what do you what to know? I ain't afraid to tell all... I shoot in competition, I shoot fairly well, won some, placed in some, messed some up... You tell me where you what to start and that is where we will start...

Jeff

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 24 November 2007

Basically what you did to get it to its present accuracy level. I have this goal for 2008 to go to some Hunter Bench Rest Matches and compete with cast bullets. The rifle/load needs to be in the 5/8ths range for five five-shot groups at 100 and an inch and a half at 200. The HBR 10-ring is 3/4 moa at both yardages and they score on centerline of the bullet hole. The only CBA matches in this part of the country I can make are in Eugene, Oregon, and that is a seven hour drive...each way. Tough to get hooked up with a good Savage shooter over there and go over for the weekend and get some mentoring.

Thank you for your offer.

Rich

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CB posted this 24 November 2007

Okay I will try to do this in steps... When I get one step written out, you post a response.. If it takes a long time to post your response, just hit the page reload or refresh button on your browser, dont hit the post button in the forum, it will double post or in the case of the above post, 20 or so... I will try to include some pic's of the equipment as we go along.. Sound fair?

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Paul Pollard posted this 24 November 2007

Since I shoot a .222 quite a bit, I'm sure the interest is about zero. I do think the procedures are the same. Why don't I post much? My stuff is a work in progress without enough perfection to satisfy me, let alone anybody who is really serious about shooting well. Just for this rifle, I have a list of 13 projects to work on for it. Most of them would hold no interest for anyone else, just as I have no interest in testing spotting scopes to read Word documents.

Just when I'm ready for a big announcement, a day like Tuesday comes along. Shot all day and came home puzzled. Which one thing caused the accuracy to go to 4” groups? Bullet fit, the sizing die, lube, wind, gas check lot #, BHN? Something usually causes one shot to jump out of the group, but not all five. If I have nothing useful to offer, I will be silent.

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CB posted this 24 November 2007

Paul.

I think there might be more interest in the 22 calibers than you think. Another thing to consider is people learn from their own and other peoples mistakes and trials so posting the bad as well as the good has a lot of benefits.

Personally I don't have much of an ego when it comes to shooting so will gladly admit I was wrong about something or let people know when I screwed up because there's not a one among us who hasn't.

Pat

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CB posted this 24 November 2007

Rich This is what I have done to get to where I am. Keep in mind this may not be the norm, it may not be scientifically correct or approved of by the masses, it is only what I have done and I aint no cast bullet god or am I right on everything I say.

That being said the first couple of things you need to know are 1) total chamber length 2) dimensions of the chamber.

You need the total chamber length to determine what length of case to use. i.e: mine measured out at 2.040.. SAAMI spec is 2.015 for cases. Therefore I make my cases of out 30-06 cases for my 308. I trim them to 2.0395 to take up as much room as possible in the generous SAAMI spec chamber. I would not turn necks, if you use Lapua brass they are very consistant. I do only neck size when reloading.

You need to slug the throat to see what diameter bullet you need to use. If you make your bullet the same diameter as the free bore of the throat. mine is .3094 so I make my bullets .3095 so there is a .0001 interference fit between the bullet base near the driving band and the free bore. I seat my bullets by the gas check only - more on that later...

I have my throat tapered at 3/4 degree, I use a 3/4 degree bump press after I size and lube. I will get a picture of it tommorrow and post it.

Back to the gun.. Make sure your barrel is free floated and I advise bedding the action to ensure the action is snug and makes 100% contact.

Check your crown, do it often and make sure there are no nicks. If you need to have it recrowned, do it at 11 degrees and buy the tool from Brownells to “touch it up” when needed.

If it is a magazine model get a BR follower.

So far we have talked about the gun and cases.. Are you with me so far?

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 25 November 2007

Yes, and thank you.

Rich

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CB posted this 25 November 2007

Jeff Bowles wrote: If it is a magazine model get a BR follower.

Jeff,

That isn't 'factory'. Are you sure BR followers are legal in Production class?

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 25 November 2007

It is a single shot.

Rich

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CB posted this 25 November 2007

Dan Per the rules and I quote - (see the bold portion)

5.2 Production Rifle - A factory produced rifle manufactured in a quantity of at least 1000 units over any 12 month period. Rifles produced by a manufacturer's custom shop are prohibited. Factory sights and ejector may be removed, but all other parts, including detachable magazines, must be present and functional when the rifle is weighed or fired. Maximum weight is 12.0 lbs. (5.45 Kg). Modifications judged to have been made specifically to allow the rifle to meet the weight limit are prohibited. The barrel may be shortened only from the muzzle end to facilitate re-crowning. The barrel's exterior may not be altered from factory specifications. The barrel must be chambered for its original cartridge and the chamber, including the neck, must conform to SAAMI specifications for the cartridge used. Non SAAMI specification throating is allowed ahead of the chamber neck. Factory stock, action, trigger, and barrel, appropriate to the model, must be used. Factory stock contour may not be altered. Factory parts may be exchanged; however, a rifle reconfigured must duplicate a factory produced model. Except for the stock, action, trigger, and barrel, substitution of custom parts is allowed. Alterations not expressly prohibited by these rules are allowed. Within the confines of these rules, Match Directors have full authority for determining eligibility of rifles used in Production Class with the sole exception of a rifle used to set a new national record, when the Board of Directors may overrule the decision of a Match Director. Rifles using an original issue military action and barrel and meeting the Production Class weight limit may be fired in Production Class with no other restrictions.

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CB posted this 25 November 2007

Rich What caliber are we talking about here?

I will be adding more after dinner tonite...

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 25 November 2007

With the travel time involved, I want to bring a couple rifles and shoot a couple different classes. Here we are talking about a stock Savage 12BV-SS Single Shot in 308W for Production Class jousting. Probably have my B&L 36X scope on it. Any thoughts here on lightening the trigger to around 4oz?

This thread is very encouraging to me, and I think to others as well. It takes the better shooters here with modified equipment to set the records, and sharing that equipment modification list can only help the CBA grow. We all know organizations are like trees; when they stop growing, they start to die. Even if you tell all your little accuracy enhancing secrets, we newbies still have to learn the hard way to dope wind and mirage, and fine tune our rifle handling skills.

Rich

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CB posted this 25 November 2007

In production class, especially in a Savage that has accutrigger, you set it as low as it will go, which is about 1 - 1 1/2 lbs and that would be all you can do to it. You can have a smith try, but the accutrigger works very well.

Okay since it is a 308 there is additional information especially in bullet selection and loads...

Model 12's have a 1-10 twist barrel, pretty high considering Rem's are mostly 1-12... This affect which bullets you will be able to shoot accurately. It is not so much weight, but length is very important. The longer the bullet is the slower you have to shoot it, is sort of a rule of thumb I follow. I have done some extensive experimentation with different length bullets from 1.4” down to .900". The best I have found is in the 1.28” to 1.33” range. This limits you to using a Eagan MX4-30-ARD or a custom mould from Veral Smith. The standard 309-200-SP will work, but I find that it throws more out than a little bit longer bullet.

When working with linotype 22-26bhn I find shooting it at 1800-2000 fps will give good accuracy, the slower you shoot it, the less total effect in torque and recoil you will have. You may want to start a little slower and work on technique before taking it up a notch or two in speed. I have used Varget, N135 and N133 with good results.

I use hornaday gas checks, and size and lube with a Lyman 450 or an old Lachmiller. I use lube I make myself that I call Voodoo Lube. It is similar to Tom Grays #24 but a little bit firmer and not as sticky. I lube both above the gas check and the lube groove. ( All the bullets I use have a single lube groove) I size to .3095 (remember the part in posts above about slugging the throat, that is where this dimension comes from)

I bump my bullets, this does 2 things 1) insures the gas check is flat and square 2) tapers the bullet to the same taper the gun is throated with. You must size and lube prior to bumping, you need the lube on the bullet to keep from galling up your bump dies and to assist in getting the bullet out of the die.

There will be 2 posts below that show picures of the 2 bump presses I have, each is a bit different from the other, the first one was made by Tom Gray for the 30BR Heavy gun my wife now shoots. The second one I am not sure who made it, but I bought the die from a fellow I shoot with.

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CB posted this 25 November 2007

Tom Gray Made Bump Press for 30BR

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CB posted this 25 November 2007

Bump press for my production guns, maker unknown

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CB posted this 25 November 2007

As you can see from both pictures, both use a Rock Chucker as the base portion of the press.

I believe the die itself is made from an old section of work out barrel. The portion that bolts to the ram and has the rods going to the piece that spans the top is for removing the bullet. The nut set up on the die limits the amount of 'bump' by restricting how far the bullet can go into the die. There is a hollow portion on the end of the rod that is inside the die that has a hunk of soft lead it it to keep from deforming the bullet tip.

I don't know if there are any drawing of how to make on of these around, I bought both of mine second hand.

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Match Director

linoww posted this 26 November 2007

I live in Burbank Wa. and they shoot HBR our here at the Pasco Wa range.I am also thinking about building up a cast bullet gun in 300 Savage to try to shoot with those guys. I have practiced with their target, and on a good day I wouldn't win, but wouldn't be last. We should try to get some CBA matches goring out east I am holding a Military Match in April at Pasco Wa.

I used to shoot at Emerald Empire in Oregon. In the late 90's, did you shoot CBA matches back then??

George

"if it was easy we'd let women do it" don't tell my wife I said that!

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 26 November 2007

linoww,

I used to shoot my Schuetzen rifle there. I was writing for Precision Shooting from 1988-96(?). I am the one that convinced Dean Miller to cut 1/4” off his 32 Miller at the Coors ISSA Nationals in 1990 and build me a new Miller rifle. It seems to be doing very well these days.

Richard Kayser

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CB posted this 26 November 2007

linoww wrote: I am also thinking about building up a cast bullet gun in 300 Savage to try to shoot with those guys.

George I think the 300 Savage has too much case capacity for HBR.

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Idaho Sharpshooter posted this 26 November 2007

If you are going to build a dedicated cast bullet HBR rifle pat i is correct. However, the j-bullet boys are shooting 112-118gr 30 caliber bullets in a 1:17” or 1:18” barrel in those short cases. Ten pounds, two ounces and a 6X scope are the killers for something like my Savage 308 Win. If you cut the Savage barrel back to 21-22” to make that weight it is no longer legal for Production Class, is it?

I personally think HBR would be a great new class for the CBA. Imagine genuine hunting rifles in competition. The HBR target would be easy to score, one bull for sighters, one shot each on the other five. The 10-ring is 3/4” in diameter, so clean scores are within reach for a rifle that will shoot groups that size or a little smaller. It might draw more new shooters into the game.

Rich

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CB posted this 27 November 2007

Rich We currently have for the postal matches a light hunter class which is exactly what you are speaking of... Perhaps if there is enough interest, it will be added to the shoulder to shoulder matches as well. I for one think it is a grand idea!

Jeff

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 28 November 2007

Jeff,

I recently made my first attempt at “bore sluggingÃ¢â‚¬?. In the somewhat muddy photo, the LH slug is a 1903 A3 Springfield (note the lack of rifling marks) and the RH slug is a Savage 308W. Focusing on the 308W slug, the length from the base of the case to the end of the “small lead ringÃ¢â‚¬? above the case mouth is 2.047Ã¢â‚¬?. I suspect that you are using reformed 06 cases in your 308W Savage so that the end of the case mouth, when chambered, is just short of the rifle's chamber in this area?

Measuring the slug, as close as I can measure with a micrometer, just at the point where the slug meets the “lead ringÃ¢â‚¬?, the diameter varies between .3085Ã¢â‚¬? and .309Ã¢â‚¬?. You then select as sizing diameter that slightly exceeds the largest dimension here.

Am I using the correct locations on the slug to collect the needed dimensions?

Thanks!

Tom

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CB posted this 28 November 2007

Tom So how did you do this, beat the slug into a chambered case through the muzzle?

I did mine differently, I used a chamber length gauge from Sinclair, but your measurement seems to be close to what mine is which is 2.040.. 2.047 seems a bit long.. I think you would be better off to check it with a chamber gauge like the one from Sinclair before you started making cases.

Tom Gray slugged my throat on my gun, he did it with a 38 wadcutter slug and tamped it in through the breech into the throat. My free bore ( I will mark up the photo of your 308 case and post later) is .3094.. 309 seems a bit small to me, you dont want your bullet too small, gas cutting will cause a lot of leading.

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CB posted this 28 November 2007

After I looked at this image blown up, it sure looks like a lot of room between the end of the case and the lead ring.. I suggust measuring this again with a chamber length gauge..

Below is the case of the 308 with some mark up on it for the bullet diameter.

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CB posted this 29 November 2007

Tom & guys,

The SAMMI specs for the 308 chamber length is 2.025” at 3.442” diameter. It tapers down abruptly to .310” in .023", so it is hard to get the chamber length correct with a slug, like Jeff says. Factory brass I've measured is 2.010” and recommended trim-to length according to Lyman is 2.005". That is why I never trim case length according to trim-to recommendations. I trim to chamber length, -.002” or so, especially in pistol cartridges though it makes uniform crimping more difficult.

Here is a picture of my chamber length plug, measuring 2.045" along side of a loaded round as I shoot it in length. This brass is 2.015” in length. I use 308Win brass and none of it reaches 2.045", but I don't worry about .020” to .030". I made up 308Win cases from five 30-06 cases 2 years ago and didn't get any better performance. Just my input....not the gospel :cool:.............Dan

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CBA Regional Director

Tom Acheson posted this 29 November 2007

Jeff,

Yes, Veral explains what to do when you buy the slugs from him. Get a close fitting long piece of round stock and some teflon based lube. Chamber a fired case filled with lead up to about 1/4” short of the case mouth exit. Drop the lubed-up slug down the bore and using the lubed-up round stock tap the end of the rod to deform the slug. Extract the case with the now embedded slug in it and you are done. Sounds gruesome but isn't too bad.

Tom

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CB posted this 29 November 2007

I thought that looked like Veral's method.. This is great for making bullets, but not so great for making cases.. I would make up a chamber length plug like Dan has illustrated to get the exact chamber length.. The reason I make my cases is two fold.. 1) to fill as much of the chamber as possible 2) I seat my bullets by the gas check only, believe it or not that seems to help ith accuracy, so I want a nice long case so the bullet isnt loose or falls out of the case. It also helps when your throat starts to wear and you need to seat a bit longer to engage the throat.

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CB posted this 02 December 2007

Jeff Bowles wrote: Hi Rich I have a Savage, what do you what to know? I ain't afraid to tell all... I shoot in competition, I shoot fairly well, won some, placed in some, messed some up... You tell me where you what to start and that is where we will start...

Jeff

Jeff;

Will you take what you've written here and make it into an article or chapter for the book? Something like “How I got a Production Class CBA Rifle Going and Found Happiness". We need this from a good shooter, to give the newcomers a look at how to.

Will you, huh, huh;

joe brennan