Tempered soft points

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Last Post 10 January 2008

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Mnshooter posted this 10 September 2007

Awhile back I remember someone writing in about annealing the nose of WW tempered bullets in a pan of water. Tried it but haven't been able to test them. Did not seem like they would stay hot enough long enough to anneal. Upon giving it thought (which admittedly, is hazardous) I wondered if it wouldn't be better to size the bullets, stick the noses in water and heat the bases with a torch and tip into the water. A fairly soft mixture can be tempered pretty hard with a WW mix. While I admit hardness would not be as consistant, and it is extra messing around, one does not need a lot of hunting bullets. Should make a load that is better at longer ranges and permit slightly higher velocities for smaller bores. The contributer did mention that his method made softpoints that would expand and penetrate similar to custom jacketed bullets.

Mnshooter

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AMMOe posted this 10 January 2008

Ed Harris wrote: Andy said

"In truth, I prefer a flat nosed bullet like the old style RCBS 30-180-FN and I am very picky about my shot.~"

I fully agree! Most of the deer I have killed with CBs have been with this RCBS bullet. I've used it in a variety of calibers, .30-30, .30-40, .30-'06. But I use another approach to get expansion, that of heat-treated, VERY diluted WW alloys. Try only 1 pound of wheelweights blended with 4 pounds of plumber's lead, and leave them for a long soak in the oven, 6 hours at 475 degs. F, to ensure that every wee bit of Sb is in solution before water-quenching them. After the quench immediately take the wet bullets, place them in a Ziploc bag and throw them in the freezer for 14 days to accelerate the aging. Diluted WW will harden to about 16-20 BHN depending upon how effective your quench is. These are then GC'ed and lubed, and can be driven to over 2000 f.p.s. in a smooth barrel. This method makes it easy to generate several hundred to do careful load development and do some expansion testing. In the .30-30 my loads approximate the .303 Savage, the bullet weighing about 190 grs. and 30 grs. of RL-15 driving it just shy of 2000 f.p.s. In the .30-40 Krag I use 38 grs. of RL-15 for about 2100. In the '06 I use 44 grs. of RL-15 for about the same velocity.

I typically “double-lube” these by filling the lube grooves with 50-50 Alox Beeswax, then giving the entire bullet a light overcoat with either Lee Liquid Alox, which has been diluted 50-50 with mineral spirits, or Rooster Jacket.

These bullets can stand higher velocity than straight WW, but are very ductile and give classic double-caliber mushrooming above 1700 f.p.s.Ed: I was re-reading some of the posts here and decided to give your method a try as I am aiming to come up with some heavy-bullet loads for my 8x57J Jager Rifle and my 303 Brit Express rifle. Both will be 170+ grain bullets used for brush shooting whitetails. Thanks for the post! ~Andy

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Mnshooter posted this 08 January 2008

If you are talking about casting your own bullets for a muzzle loader, you can go to pure lead or nearly pure. Some casters like to add a touch of tin, say 1% or less to get the stuff to fill molds better. If you are fitting a bullet to a sabot it probably would not matter much what alloy you used. I do not believe that there is any sabot system for a 457 bullet, you would have to check. One common misconception these days is that original muzzleloaders shoot only round balls. There were English guns and American made “Picket rifles” specially made to shoot bullets. They used a smooth sided bullet like a paper patch and loaded them using crossed patches cut to fit the bullets in a manner similar to loading a round ball. These were of course heavier bullets weighing about 470 to over 500 grains in a 45 caliber rifle. The Buffalo arms co. on the internet lists bullets for this type of loading under paper patched bullets. These early slug guns were famed for accuracy. Read Ned Roberts “The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle."

I had grown disgusted with the sport these days such that I have not been shooting ML's like I once did for the reasons you stated. You cannot even talk about traditional ML's at the local sporting goods stores as they do not know anything about them. The interest has been rekindled and I am looking at starting to build rifles again.

Mnshooter

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CB posted this 29 December 2007

I was thinking of making soft nose bullets to use in my “modern” muzzleloader with a sabot.

Either 405 gr 457 cal bullet or 310 gr 44 cal bullet.

Here in the Buckeye state we don't have modern rifle hunting for deer, only shotgun, bow, handgun or muzzleloader. I use a 44mag Contender during the regular season and switching from my Grey Hawk to a 209 magnum type muzzleloader during the primitive season. It is getting hard to find the right stuff for my cap lock. Everybody has pellets and Sabot Slugs these days, not caps and round ball in any decent assortment. I have cast my own round ball and mini balls in the past, but sometimes it's easy for me to run down the road 10 minutes to my local country side gun dealer and buy something off the shelf when I am low on materials.

I have used CBs in both hunting weapons and gotten my fill.

Jerry

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Mnshooter posted this 28 December 2007

for the record, the handle of the individual that started me on this thread was BABORE. I found the printout I made of his suggestions. His findings were that WW had a tendency to be too brittle and broke off on expansion when done this way. He claimed 1/2 WW and 1/2 pure lead to work and with a tempered Bn of over 20 and permitting velocities of up to 2500 fps when tempered with the nose softened. While most seem to have some luck with untempered WW at lower velocities, its possible that at higher speeds the higher antimony content would make it brittle enough to break away. Just reporting to possibly save reivention of the wheel.

Mnshooter

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AMMOe posted this 14 November 2007

Ed, I used to carry a 16.5” barreled Winchester Model 94, 30-30, with me in bear country. I loaded that old RCBS FN bullet cast of diluted WW (3:1 WW/ PB) and loaded to about 1800 ft/sec. Not an optimal bear load but better than a handgun. It will shoot darned near lengthwise through a whitetail at 60 yards, I know that.

I recently picked up a ballard rilfled Marlin 36C with the half magazine and the thoughts of late deer season have that rifle and bullet combo drifting through my mind. Don't know if I'll make it due to some hip surgery but I may go out and work up some loads, anyhow. I have always regretted that my particular mold casts a tad too small for my Krag... ~Andy

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CBA Member

Ed Harris posted this 14 November 2007

Andy said

"In truth, I prefer a flat nosed bullet like the old style RCBS 30-180-FN and I am very picky about my shot.~"

These bullets can stand higher velocity than straight WW, but are very ductile and give classic double-caliber mushrooming above 1700 f.p.s.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Mnshooter posted this 14 November 2007

Deer season is winding down now, and I tried my softpoints made by heating the noses with a torch while heat sinking the bases in water. One smaller deer up close very nice hole, good trail, one larger deer at about 150 yards, smaller hole, good trail not needed as the deer did not go far. Both shot through the lungs with a 30-30, 187 gr flatnose at 1870fps. My alloy was no.6 chilled birdshot with 1% tin added which should have about 1% antimony. Bases seem to harden about like #2 alloy and the noses are quite soft. Since I am somewhat cheap, I make the bullets out of a round nose mold and flatten them with a flat nose punch. (you have to size them first with a proper punch) I had to be careful not to flatten the annealed noses too much or they would distort and not fit in the chamber. The bullets after hardening but before annealing would not flatten with any reasonable pressure. Were I to use a mold with the correct profile this method mould not require much monkeying around. One can just take out a few bullets for hunting and anneal the tips. I only loaded a dozen rounds for hunting. The best reaults occured by only covering about half of the base of the bullets as they do not anneal up to the water line. I think that the hardness likey increases from the nose to the base. The individual that mentioned this claimed performance similar to premium jacketed bullets. Based on the two deer I shot hith them, which is only a start, I would agree. Mnshooter

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AMMOe posted this 12 October 2007

This method was developed by past (now deceased) CBA member Tom Cost, of Los Lunas, NM. The guy did more work with CB's than I can recount. He used to shoot 4.5” groups at 550 yards with his 03 Springfield and his Home-bumped bullets. I always wondered if after the initial quench, an inverted hot plate would work to keep that aluminum plate hot. I may get back to that this winter.

As to hunting. I tell you Glen, I rarely shoot farther than I care to walk these days! I have killed mule deer to 130 yards with heat treated bullets from my 308 and 30-06 loaded to highway speeds. The last muley I took had his lungs shredded at 115 yards, There was a one inch exit wound on the far side and he was breathing his last breath when I made it to him. This was with a 30-180-SP. I have found that shoulder shots work great but I hate the meat damage.

In truth, I prefer a flat nosed bullet like the old style RCBS 30-180-FN and I am very picky about my shot.~Andy

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 12 October 2007

AMMOe wrote: I make soft nose bullets by using a 2” thick, aluminum plate with holes drilled in the same pattern as my heat treating pan. I heat the bullets in the pan with the plate on top and then quench in only enough water to cover the driving bands. After a few minutes (to let steam/vapor diminish) I place newspapers on top of the plate and let it rest. When cooled the noses are noticeably softer than the bases.

After using this on and off for years I went to just shooting heat treated bullets at high velocities. They kill just as well. ~Andy

Hi Andy,

That's a slick way to make soft points. I have also used hard bullets at high velocity, but don't as a rule because it limits your effective range. If you know you won't need to take a shot past the point where the bullet won't expand, or you have the time to wait for a close enough shot, they work just as well as softpoints.

Glenn

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AMMOe posted this 12 October 2007

I make soft nose bullets by using a 2” thick, aluminum plate with holes drilled in the same pattern as my heat treating pan. I heat the bullets in the pan with the plate on top and then quench in only enough water to cover the driving bands. After a few minutes (to let steam/vapor diminish) I place newspapers on top of the plate and let it rest. When cooled the noses are noticeably softer than the bases.

After using this on and off for years I went to just shooting heat treated bullets at high velocities. They kill just as well. ~Andy

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Mnshooter posted this 20 September 2007

I have tried the method you suggest in handguns and found that they do work, and are not all bad. I have been playing with the annealing method and find thatheating the noses with a torch does seem to soften the noses and leave the bases harder. Its a matter of how deep the bases are placed in the water. Unfortunately I tested this method on bullets of a harder alloy than needed and am still currently playing. By the way, one of the problems using a propane torch is that of melting the noses until you get the feel of things. You can get the metal to melting points quite quickly.

Mnshooter

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CB posted this 18 September 2007

I have been using this method for cast hunting bullets ever since I read Verals book.

It works great, and is relatively easy. After everything is up to temp cast one of the softnoses every 4 to 5 times you fill the mould.

I've taken quite a few deer with .35, .375, and .458 using this method. You can use round nose and spitzer shapes and not have to restrict to flat nose bullets.

LeeG

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Glenn R. Latham posted this 13 September 2007

Mnshooter,

I have not done the nose anneal method, but the base heat treat won't work! You have to get the bullet temperature up to just under the melting point to get a good heat treat, so trying that with a torch is asking for frustration.

Another way to make soft nose CBs is to cast some round balls or small CBs from pure lead or tin-lead (5% tin is plenty). Cast these equal to the weight you want the soft nose to be. To determine this, snip off the nose of your bullet where you want the soft nose to stop and weigh the snip. If you don't have a mould this weight, use one fairly close of a small caliber bullet and snip them to the desired weight.

Put a piece of the tin-lead in your casting ladle, and float it on the pot. Get your mould good and hot by casting bullets from the bottom pour spout. When the mould is hot, pour the tin-lead from the ladle into the mould and IMMEDIATELY top it off from the bottom pour. The two will fuse together, although you will see a seam (wrinkle) where they come together. This does not seem to hurt accuracy. The bullet can be heat treated in the oven in the normal manner, and the tin-lead or pure lead nose will not harden. Yes, it's a bit of a hassle, but like you say, you don't need many.

This isn't my idea - I got it from Veral Smith of LBT. Get his book - lots of good info like this!

Glenn

P.S. Use WWs for the body of the bullet - not linotype! At high velocity lino will explode!