Testing Bullet Lubes at 3000 fps

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  • Last Post 04 January 2017
mtngun posted this 24 October 2016

I'm down to my last few globs of the discontinued Rooster HVR lube so I have no choice but to find a new favorite lube.    Previous tests have given me a pretty good idea what will work and what won't, but nonetheless I'm going to conduct even more tests and let the results guide my final choice.

The plan is to shoot ten 10-shot groups with each lube at 3000 fps, without cleaning in between the 100 shots.  Why?   Because "cast bullets at 3000 fps” has a nice ring to it, don't you agree?  

Even 100 shots each may not be enough to prove a statistically significant difference between some lubes, nonetheless "100 shots each" has a nice ring to it. :cool:

The tentative list of lubes to include in the test:

-- HVR as the previous “gold standard" -- LBT Blue (the so-called hard version) -- White Label Carnuba Red -- White Label Commercial 190 degrees -- White Label 2500 (preferred by Larry Gibson for hi-vel use, last I heard)

I may add one or two more lubes to the list, but it's not feasible to test every lube out there unless I win the lottery and retire. :D    Once a new “gold standard” lube is chosen, I can always use it to do a one-on-one comparison with other lubes.

I thought about giving homebrew lubes another whirl.   I've learned a few things since my last attempt at homebrew lube, and I suspect now I could equal HVR without too much difficulty.   However, that could take some time and I never seem to have enough time.   Also, I don't mind paying a few bucks for storebought lube because it's a minor cost compared to what I spend on powder, primers, barrels, etc..   I can always revisit homebrew lube later if the spirit moves me.

It takes the better part of a day to load and shoot 100 shots, allowing the barrel to cool for a minute between each shot and for 10 minutes or so between groups.   At any rate after 100 full throttle shots at the bench I've had enough, so this comparison test may take several weeks or even months, depending on how often Mr. Murphy visits my range.

For today I shot HVR.   This will be the control load, the “gold standard” against which the other lubes will be compared.  I'm hoping one of the other lubes will prove to be at least as good as HVR.  

The test rig and its control load:

-- Remington M700 switchbarrel bench rifle -- Pacnor 6-groove 14” twist 7BR  which I have discussed in another thread -- 34.0 gr. WC845.   It's not my favorite powder but it was sitting on the shelf, and that counts for something. :D -- CCI #450 primers -- 100 gr. GC spitzer -- J.R. brand reclaimed shot oven treated @470F -- nose sized to match the taper of the throat -- final sized 0.284” (the barrel's groove is 0.283") -- seated for 0.015” jam

Today's target.   Group #0 was a warm-up group using wheelweight alloy, while groups #1 - 10 are the “official” groups using reclaimed shot.   This will be the standard that other lubes are expected to at least equal.

I repeat for emphasis -- the barrel was not cleaned between groups!   At the end of the day I pushed one patch through with Ed's Red, and the only reason I did that was to deter corrosion, not because the barrel was dirty.   There was nothing on the patch other than some black carbon.    If the barrel had been fouling we would expect groups to open up as more shots were fired, but that didn't happen.   If anything groups became smaller and more consistent as more shots were fired, indicating a stable barrel condition.   Pacnor makes a good barrel, and HVR is a good lube.

My chrono has no printer so this is as close as I can come to providing tangible proof of the velocities.

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shastaboat posted this 04 January 2017

I'm impressed.  A poster on reloadersnest.com referred readers to review your results.  I haven't been logging in to castbulletassoc.org for sometime.  I think I'll come over and start watching and commenting on some of the threads.  I like the new format forum too.  Accurate 3000 fps cast WW is really something. 

Because I said so!

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 26 November 2016

... could it be that

BAC .... IS.... the future ??

sorry it is the weekend ...

ken

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mtngun posted this 26 November 2016

Minor Update:    I've been using BAC in my lubrisizer for a while now and have settled on a heater setting of 35C (95F).    The maker claims BAC does not require a heater but then again the maker is located in Arkansas where the ambient temperature is often 95F.  :D    

My reloading shack is often less than warm in the winter so I can't imagine not using a heater with BAC.

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mtngun posted this 19 November 2016

harleyrock wrote: It sure looks to me like this piece of work should be a STICKY. Thanks for reading my adventures, harleyrock. :)

I did submit a condensed version of this lube test to TFS.

As I mentioned in the TFS article, I make no claims that my 3000 fps lube test is pertinent to low-velocity cast, or to hunting applications where you need the first shot from a cold barrel to hit the point of aim.     It may be that different applications require different lubes.    I suspect my results will generalize to other high velocity rifle applications, though.

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harleyrock posted this 14 November 2016

It sure looks to me like this piece of work should be a STICKY.

Lifetime NRA since 1956, NRA Benefactor, USN Member, CBA Member

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gpidaho posted this 14 November 2016

The BAC lube is available from NOE Bullet Moulds. I was rubbing it on one at a time at first as mtngun does until I tried it pan lubing. I use a pellet tin or such and warm the bullets and lube on my mould warming hot plate. Just let the lube set and wiggle the bullets out. 95% come out grooves full. Gp

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mtngun posted this 14 November 2016

John Alexander wrote: On the principle that no good deed goes unpunished, please submit this lube comparison as a Fouling Shot Article. For whatever reason, most of our members don't participate in the forum.

By the way the study had to involve changing lube in a lubrisizer multiple times, a job I try to avoid. How do you do it?

JohnThanks for reminding me to submit an article to TFS, John.  I'll try to get started on it tonight.

I lubed the bullets by hand, smearing the lube into the grooves with my fingers.   The excess is squeegee'd off by the sizing dies.   Repeat 105 times for each lube.   Yeah, lots of work, that's one reason I had to set limits on how many lubes I could test.

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John Alexander posted this 13 November 2016

Great study.  Thanks for getting it on our forum.

On the principle that no good deed goes unpunished, please submit this lube comparison as a Fouling Shot Article. For whatever reason, most of our members don't participate in the forum.

By the way the study had to involve changing lube in a lubrisizer multiple times, a job I try to avoid. How do you do it?

John

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 13 November 2016

i wish to share my guilt and thus dilute my share of same ...

my guilt for profiting from the impressive work done by mtn. and joeb and many others here and gone before .... which allows me to skip most of the empty rabbit holes and go directly to a modicum of success with my plinking loads.... which, after all, is the object of hard serious work :: the satisfaction of above adequate performance for an hour or two on sunday afternoons with my friends and a sack of old bean cans ...

keep it up guys and be sure to let us know if you find more empty rabbit holes to avoid .....

there, i feel better already .... heck, i better get that white label bac ordered .... my shelf of other best lubes is getting lonely ...

thanks guys...and many others ....

hey !!!....it's sunday afternoon !!!!.... get out there !!!

ken

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mtngun posted this 13 November 2016

OU812 wrote: Will you test the dry White Label 45-45-10 lube. Keep an open mind and do not predict results without testing. Your high velocity tapered 7mm bullet is a much different animal than your 35 caliber.Thanks for reading my shootout, OU812. :) 

Sorry, but the main goal of this shootout was to choose a replacement for the discontinued HVR, not to test every lube under the sun.    If and when my NASA research grant is approved for “Cast Bullets To The Moon and Back" then maybe I'll be able to quit my job and do cast bullet experiments full time. :D   In the meantime I have to place limits on the projects I take on. :( 

I.e., I would have liked to have experimented with homebrew lubes, but that could take months or years and I need a reliable lube now so that I can go on to other shooting projects.

Obviously there are many more lubes out there that I did not test, but .... anyone is welcome to test those lubes and publish their data, rather than relying on me to do it for them.   

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OU812 posted this 13 November 2016

Will you test the dry White Label 45-45-10 lube. Keep an open mind and do not predict results without testing. Your high velocity tapered 7mm bullet is a much different animal than your 35 caliber.

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mtngun posted this 13 November 2016

http://www.lsstuff.com/>White Label Lube

Their website is not the best.    I found it easier to buy on ebay.

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billglaze posted this 13 November 2016

In the spirit of shameless imitation, where does one obtain White Lube BAC? In the spirit of shameless appreciation and gratitude, thanks to mtngun for all the work involved, the publishing of the information in such a readable and sensible form. Many thanks are due to him as well as the other ceaseless experimenters on this forum for their efforts and making their work known. Bill Glaze

In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. My fate is not entirely in Gods hands, if I have a weapon in mine.

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gpidaho posted this 13 November 2016

I'm on my second pack of White Label BAC Lube and I believe it to be an excellent choice. It's a very tacky lube and stays in the grooves the best of any lube I've tried when pan lubing. Will look forward to mtnguns performance tests. Gp

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delmarskid1 posted this 13 November 2016

This is great! Thanks for the work. I'm looking forward to the alloy work up.

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mtngun posted this 13 November 2016

FYI I mentioned in a previous post that I might re-test the winning lube, just to make sure it was repeatable.   Well, I'm leaning toward doing an alloy shootout and I'll be using BAC in that shootout so BAC will have ample opportunity to prove itself.

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mtngun posted this 13 November 2016

Today we tested White Label BAC, which is a blend of the NRA formula plus Carnuba Red.     The maker describes it as: This lube is a mix of my Carnauba Red and 50-50. It gives performance similar to Carnauba Red, but does not need a heater. Slightly softer than the 2500+ lube.

But .... the sample of BAC they sent me is what I would call a “medium” hard lube.  It was harder than the 2500 lube and it would require a heater.   I'm not complaining, I'm just stating the facts.

According to the meter in my back pocket, BAC is the tackiest lube that I've ever encountered, and I consider that a good thing.  

Aaaand .... it appears that BAC won the lube shootout.

Stats for White Label BAC:

Student T-Test Results for BAC, based on the mean radius for the 10 groups: -- 56% sure there is a difference between HVR and BAC (that's too close to call).

-- 44% sure there is a difference between Carnuba Red and BAC (not significant).

-- 66% sure there is a difference between White Label 2500 and BAC (probably significant).

So it's a virtual tie between Carnuba Red and BAC.

Correlation Between Velocity Variation and Accuracy ? A scatter plot of %velocity standard deviation vs. mean radius doesn't seem to show a correlation. 

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Larry Gibson posted this 07 November 2016

Concur with 45 2.1s conclusion of Mtguns results. The lube does make a difference. My own tests and use of cast bullets of ternary alloy in several rifles of different cartridges with different design of cast bullets with velocities of 1700 - 3000 fps have demonstrated the superiorty of 3 commmercial lubes......one, unfortunately, is no longer available.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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45 2.1 posted this 06 November 2016

I would say that the Average Group Size list from 8 different lubes confirms that lube does make a difference...... contrary to what has been said on this site before.

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gpidaho posted this 06 November 2016

mtngun: I'd call that overlay more than “Just for fun". That's well worth bragging about. Gp

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