Reduced Loads

  • 3.6K Views
  • Last Post 06 October 2016
WI Shooter posted this 24 September 2016

Have been loading for a number of years.  Nothing serious just good shooting ammo. I bought a Marlin 1895, 45-70 and am now shooting cast bullets.  I started with 405 g. and now have some 300 g.  I have been reading about plinking loads with Unique and other powder.  I am loading with IMR 4198 and not interested plinking loads but a reduced load.  Is the 10% reduction a good rule of thumb to start with and is IMR 4198 a powder for reduced loads.

Thanks for any info.

WI Shooter

Attached Files

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
jeff houck posted this 24 September 2016

What velocity are you looking for? 4198 will become erratic, (but not dangerous), when you get down in the 1000 fps region with a 300 gr. bullet. Unique and Bullseye are the better choices for very reduced velocity loads. While you want a low velocity load you still need to keep the pressure up high enough to have a consistent burn. If you want an extremely low velocity load under 1000 fps with a 300 gr. bullet you'll need to use Bullseye.

I've used 10 grs. of bullseye with a 350 gr. bullet for 1000 fps. as my Lever Action silhouette load for 16 ish years.

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 24 September 2016

H4198 Hodgdon load for a 300 gr bullet in 45-70 is a recommended load for the lowest level H4198 should be used in 45-70. it yields 1807fps with 45 gr H4198. lower than that with H4198 begins ignition problems. That is not a recommendation for the IMR4198 you have and the charge is different for IMR.

There are several recommended powders at hodgdon that get ~1800 and are safe loads.

The lowest velocity for a 300 gr in 45-70 from Hodgdon data is 14 gr TrailBoss for 1,199 fps and this load puts you a close but safe margin above where bullets stick in the bore. The Hodgdon recommendation is safe and I wouldn't go lower. Verify at: http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/>http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

45-70 Govt. Case: Winchester Twist: 1:20” Primer: CCI 200, Large Rifle Barrel Length: 24” Trim Length: 2.100” Bullet Weight300 GR. CAST LFP Starting Loads Maximum Loads Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Hodgdon Trail Boss .458” 2.465” 14.0 gr START 1,199 fps 19,400 CUP 16.5 1,285 20,900 CUP

Be safe! shoot recommended loads only. Trail Boss is NOT position sensitive in RECOMMENDED loads and has excellent ignition used as recommended.

Gary  

Attached Files

WI Shooter posted this 24 September 2016

Thanks.  I am not looking to push either the high or low limits and want to be safe.  I see I have one link to go to and will check it out. Is there printed data available for reduced loads?  Really like the forum and the wealth of knowledge the members share. Thanks again.

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 24 September 2016

a classic powder a little faster than 4198 is 4227 ( or h4227 ) .... this has been my first choice for years for loads in the ” a little faster than plinker ” range. even tho my favorite, occasionally it isn't the absolute best choice ; even your favorite child can be naughty ...

powders in general have an effective range of pressure ::

too little pressure and the ignition is variable and gives poor accuracy . ( also dirty and may be dangerous from a mysterious pressure anomaly ) .

too much pressure ...although may be accurate ...is dangerous from blowing out cases and/or even gun mechanisms.

moderation in everything .

ken

Attached Files

RicinYakima posted this 24 September 2016

The older Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #3, now out of print, has a wide range of loads. Plus you can buy used copies on EBay for less than $10. HTH, Ric

Attached Files

WI Shooter posted this 24 September 2016

Good. Thanks.  I have a copy coming from someplace in the library system and will look it over and them perhaps order a copy.

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 24 September 2016

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=10422>WI Shooter

The safest data for reduced loads is in a tech note from Hodgdon Powder company, it is in PDF form, link:

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/H4895%20Reduced%20Rifle%20Loads.pdf

and,

http://www.wwpowder.com/PDF/Youth%20Loads.pdf

Read both and follow exactly for excellent safe reduced loads where H4895 is recommended by Hodgdon for all of the calibers and bullets weights listed in All Hodgdon data.

Gary

Attached Files

Bohica793 posted this 30 September 2016

You might try looking at http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm.

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 30 September 2016

http://gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

some good reading here.... plus go to first page also.

thanks

ken

Attached Files

WI Shooter posted this 30 September 2016

Thanks to all for the great posts and info to my original question.  Bohica793's link was the best.  The amount of test and data here is most valuable.  I have bookmarked the link for future reference and have also printed it out.  Of course the load data I printed was for 45-70, 300 grain and 405 grain bullets. In reading other information on the subject Unique powder keeps coming up and it was tested and listed for the information of my interest.  It is wild that 14 grains of Unique will push a 405 grain bullet at 1168 fps.  Of course 10 to 14 grains of Unique behind this big bullet in a big case brings up the subject of filler.  Been reading all the pros and cons of using a filler.  I am currently shooting 8 grains of Unique behind a 250 grain bullet in my 45 Colt rifle and have been wondering and looking at the large unfilled 45 case.

Thanks again.  Great discussion.  Interested in reading your personal experience.

WI Shooter

Attached Files

gpidaho posted this 30 September 2016

I may be wrong,but I wouldn't feel comfortable using a filler with a powder in the Unique burn range. Gp

Attached Files

WI Shooter posted this 30 September 2016

Thanks.  I do not plan to.

Attached Files

jeff houck posted this 30 September 2016

You don't need a filler with Unique. It's very easy to ignite. I've used 13 grs. of Unique with bullets from 300 grs. up to 500 grs. It's my go to load when ever I get a new rifle or a new shooter just starting with the 45-70. Accuracy is almost always to notch with any cast bullet weight. It's the cast bullet shooters friend in all calibers, rifle, pistol and shot gun.

All hail Unique.......................:dude:

Attached Files

WI Shooter posted this 30 September 2016

Thanks Jeff. I will be loading some 300 grain with Unique. What is your vol with 300 grain cast and 13 g of Unique?

Attached Files

jeff houck posted this 01 October 2016

Uberti Highwall .45-70, 28” barrel 

13 grs. Unique,  any LR primer.<>300 gr. Saeco FP (copy of the Winchester bullet) - 1274 FPS.<>350 gr. LBT LFN - 1238 FPS.<>480 gr. Saeco SP - 1060 FPS.<>500 gr. LBT SP - 1080 FPS. You're in the BP realm of velocity, and the pressures (according to Quick Load) are below the BP pressures.

Attached Files

WI Shooter posted this 01 October 2016

Thanks again Jeff.  After loading .30 cal for my M1 and then getting into shooting cast a whole new world has opened up.  For my .30 cal I just selected the lowest given load for the powder type and made up some shooting ammo. Nothing to serious and it gave OK results.  I first got into shooting cast with my 45 Colt, 18” barrel.  8 grains of Unique behind a 250 g. cast and I averaged 1056 fps.  My 45-70 Model 1895 has the 22” barrel.  Looking forward to loading some Unique for the 45-70.

Thanks to you and all who have replied to my questions.  This is a great forum, a great bunch of folks.

Attached Files

jeff houck posted this 01 October 2016

You're welcome, glad to have been able to help.

After you've made up the first batch of ammo and printed on paper you'll have a reference group size to begin your load development from. 

First step is to use as fat a bullet as possible. You don't need to “measure” your rifles throat with anything fancy. Simply ink up your bullet with a magic marker, seat the bullet long in the case and then chamber the round until it stops. Extract the round and look at the marks on the bullet. If you have a scraped mark all around the bullet then the bullet is larger than the throat. Ideally you want the bullet to just barley slip into the throat (1/2 of a 1/1000 smaller). But try it just under and just over diameter. Typically if the loaded round will chamber with a fat cast bullet it will shoot much better than an very undersized bullet.

Second step is to test for seating depth. Again, start with an ink up bullet that is seated to long to chamber. Gradually seat the bullet deeper in the case until it will close with firm pressure but not hard pressure. Check the marks on the inked bullet. What you're looking for are rifling marks on the nose of the bullet (if it's a bore riding nose) and the start of the rifling on the first driving band of the bullet. This is a crush fit of the bullet into the rifling and throat of the gun. Again, use only firm pressure not hard pressure in chambering the round. Also note that depending on the neck tension of the brass, this round may de-bullet when the cartridge is extracted. (OK on the target range but not in the hunting field.) 

Now assemble your subsequent rounds of test ammunition with the bullet seated 10/1000 deeper each time. Test for group size with each length of ammo and have fun! 

10 shot groups will show you a lot more than 5 shot groups.  

Attached Files

giorgio de galleani posted this 06 October 2016

Jeff 's advices should be carved in stone .

Attached Files

tturner53 posted this 06 October 2016

First off, good to hear from Buffalo George. I hope the earthquakes missed you and your's. -There were two 45-70s shot in the recent CBA National Military Rifle Tournament in beautiful Washington State. If you are a CBA member you can see the stats in the latest Fouling Shot Magazine. This was the entire 'Big Bore' class, so the worst a guy could do was 2nd place. (Last) These were Trapdoor Springfields as issued, one, mine, is a Cadet Model. In the magazine article reporting the match a really reduced load was mentioned. My match load consisted of a 350 gr. Ranch Dog design intended for the Marlins and loaded over a pinch of Red Dot. Velocity was down around 1100 fps. It definitely is a squeeze fit and engages the old girl's rifling when the breech block is shut. An even more reduced load is easy to cook up but I needed to reach the 200 yd. line. My shooting was off that weekend but the rifle and light load are winners. One more thing re. reduced 45-70 loads. I shot a large wild boar at close range thru the top of it's head with a moderate lead bullet load and it passed thru the pig and vanished deep into the earth. Gone. I don't think you can reduce a 45-70 to the point it's not effective as long as it makes it out the barrel!

Attached Files

Close