Going to take delivery in a coupla days on the above in the Short Rifle model (Miroku version). I looked all thru this section of the forum and couldn't find anything specific of this rifle & cal. So thought I'd start a thread on it and see what comes up. Have been doing quite a bit of looking around the Net but most of the info I could find dealt with other brands with very little specifically on the Win. I was really surprised at the variations in the twist rates on the various makes. That's the thing that confuses me the most. Not sure of the why on that. I've got the Lyman 429241 which I use in a Ruger .44 Spec. & a S&W M29 .44 Mag. It'll run .4305 cast out of Lino and weighs a little over 235 grs. Hopefully that will work in the Win. 92. So if anyone has any experience on this rifle and caliber I'd like to hear from you on your experiences. Pete
Winchester 1892 .44 Mag.
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- Last Post 25 December 2023
It is a modern lever rifle in 44 Mag, it will easily handle factory ammo and hand-loads at that level.
The bigger question from me is, what will you be shooting it at? You mention Linotype, I'm not a fan of Linotype bullets, they fragment on game. There is plenty of good reasons to use softer bullets for hunting and a gas checked cast bullet in .44 mag can be shot well at near factory load levels.
If your mold is the plain base version Lyman 429241 , you can still use 44 Cal. aluminum plain base gas checks available from member here on the forum, Sagesoutdoors:
If you had selected Linotype for higher load level, the gas checked bullet in #2 Alloy, for example, will handle equal load pressure to Linotype and #2 will expand excellently on game while allowing obduration of the bullet to complete fit on firing and Linotype won't obdurate at all while it is more critical to fit because of that.
The plain base aluminum checks work well with Lee Lube and Size Kit push through dies right on your press.
Consider my recommendation. The first thing I'd try is #2 alloy, Size/checked .430” with Aluminum plain based checks, White's Deluxe 45:45:10 lube and H Lilgun just under MAX. From Hodgdon:
Case: Winchester Twist: 1:20” Primer: Remington 2 1/2, Large Pistol Barrel Length: 8.275” Trim Length: 1.280” Bullet Weight240 GR. NOS JHP Starting Loads Maximum Loads Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Hodgdon Lil'Gun .429” 1.600” 22.5 gr START 1,465 fps 30,100 CUP 24.5 gr MAXIMUM 1,582 fps 38,100 CUP
A gas checked #2 Alloy bullet will handle this load pressure well and be a little faster than this data but with lower pressure due to your slightly lighter cast bullet and your barrel length likely ~1,620 fps @ 24 gr Lilgun....A Deer smacking load.
Gary
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Gary,
Not sure why you've posted to my OP. Unless I missed something your message has little info I'm looking for.
I plan on using the gun for plinking and Hog hunting.
The reason for Lino is as you will note in the OP the cast diam. will barely meet the size required. If that bullet gives decent accuracy then I'll order the same thing from MBC out of 12 or 18 Bhn.
It appears you are not familiar with the Lyman 429241. It is the bullet Elmer Keith developed for the .44 mag. which he was instrumental in developing.
The load you recommend probably won't work all that well in the twist rate (rifle slower) and barrel length (rifle longer). So... If you don't mind I'd really like to talk with those who have actual experience with .44 Mag. lever guns. I just used the rifle I'm getting to put in the subject line. Anyone with one of the modern makes is more than welcome to chime in. Might even be able to work up something for TFS.
Pete
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I have no experience with the Japanese Winchesters, but I understand from others that they are well made and shoot well.
I load for an 1894S Marlin in .44 Magnum which has a 38” twist Microgroove barrel. I also have a similar 1894S in .44-40 which also has the slow twist and Microgroove rifling.
I use mostly 1:30 tin/lead alloy from Roto Metals for both recreational shooting and hunting. I use a charge of 7.2 grains of Bullseye in both .44-40 and .44 Magnum as a plinking load, which approximates .44-40 energy. For a heavier hunting load I use 24.5 grains of Alliant RL7, with the Accurate 43-230G bullet, which is a compressed powder charge giving about 1350 fps.
I have not seen any need for heavier loads as these perform well for deer and varmints. I've written several articles in the Fouling Shot on my experiences with the .44-40 and cast bullets, and all of that can also be applied to assembling “medium velocity” loads for the .44 Magnum for either rifle or revolver.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Pete,
YOu will probably find that the 429421 lyman Keith bullet will have too long a nose to feed thru the mag of your M92. I found that to be the case when loading for my Orig M92 Win 44WCF (44-40).
A good shooting bullet is the 429215 GC, 215 gr SWC. , particularly in the slower twist rifles like mine and yours.
Secondly, I believe NOE sells a clone of LYman 429434-- 206 gr RFN GC bullet deisgned for the 44-40. My Orig Lyman 429434 HP bullet, 9+1 WW/Lino .430 GC bullet driven in my M92 44-40 rifle by 22 gr 4227. Shoots “cloverleaves” at 75 yds .
This is a modest load in 44-40, but did a good job on my second last Whitetail- one shot at 60yds thru heart and out the other side- deer went about 75 yds and dropped dead. ANd it feeds perfectly thru magazine of the '92.
Have fun with the '92. Will be intersted to hear how it shoots
beltfed/arnie
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Pete: Can't offer anything regarding your 44 mag, however I have had one of those 92 Winchesters in the SR carbine version for a few years. Mine is the .357 mag. It is a dandy as far as fit, finish and workmanship. And with the lyman 358156, it functions well and is amazingly accurate for a short little lever gun. Have fun with that 44.
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Ed,
I've heard nothing but good things about the Miroku made guns too. It's why I decided on the Winchester gun. Seems like on other forums all the other makes seem to have problems of one sort or another. More money but apparently less trouble.
Am wondering what the wgt. of that Accurate 43-230G is. Not being up on the Accurate way of listing their bullets, I'm assuming it's a nominal 230 grs.
I've got a Colt SAA, 3rd gen., 44/40 so will keep your loads in mind. Was thinking that if 230 gr., is correct for the wgt. of the Accurate that that would be a little on the heavy side for the 44/40. Thoughts?
Pete
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Arnie.
Your comments on the Lyman 429421 are interesting. I'd have thought that it would have been ideal in a rifle. I haven't run into any problems with it in the Smith .44 Mag. revolver. Of course a revolver doesn't have feeding problems. If you can stuff it into the cylinder your good to go. Will be sure and make up a dummy round before getting carried away with loading up a bunch while waiting. You might have saved me a bunch of trouble by mentioning that. Thanks!!
Will also keep your NOE bullet in mind. I was thinking on seeing if I have a mould in my inventory about that wgt. to use as a plinking load. Guess I've been brainwashed by all the forums with the guys saying they can't get the big heavy bullets to stabilize on their slow twist guns. Seems like they all think they need the heaviest bullet possible to kill deer with.
Good hearing from you. Born and raised in La Crosse.
Pete
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RD,
You don't know how close I came to just having my FFL dealer get me the 92 in .38/357. Don't own a .357 anymore so held out for the .44 Mag. The way my FFL guy talks he had to call all the dealers he's in touch with to finally come up with a wholesaler that had one left in stock. Seems like the Winchesters are kinda scarce.
Thought about the SRC too. But thought the Short Rifle would be a little easier to “tune” up. Talking to guys who tune these guns up the barrel bands of the SRC are the hard part. Did your SRC shoot good out of the box or did you “tune” it up? Thinking about shooting the “Deer” Postal match but will have to see what you can do as far as “tuning” it up.
Thinking about getting a tang sight . Know anything about those you can get to cover/replace the safety? Another option is to talk to my gunsmith and see if he will drill and tap the receiver side for that type sight.
Maybe when I get tired of the Mag. I'll get the .357. For upwards of 60+ yrs. my main hobby is to get a gun, wring it out, and then trade it off for another.
Pete
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Pete,
Re the Tang sight. That is what I have on my Wn 1892. YOu may be able to simply remove the safety and then use a small steel block “under” the safety slot which has been D&T for an 8-32 screw to anchor the front of a Marbles or Lyman tang sight. The rear of the tang sight base is anchored by a slightly longer tang stock screw.
I did this on a couple of Ruger No 1's that I mounted Soule type target sights on for BPCR. It worked nicely. In the case of the Ruger No 1, since there is no tang stock screw, I had to inlet a threaded half coupling into the wood immediately behind the end of the tang in addition to the little 1/4x1/4 block under the safety slot.
beltfed/arnie
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Pete,
"The reason for Lino is as you will note in the OP the cast diam. will barely meet the size required."
The load pressure I recommended will easily obdurate and bump up your bullet if cast in #2 Alloy to a perfect fit. #2 alloy when cast for maximum diameter will fill your mold as well as Linotype when your bullets have an overall velvety appearance from a calculated high temperature cast.
It appeared you wanted to try this bullet in your rifle. I believe it will work fine if you cast for maximum diameter and size/check with Aluminum plain base checks at .430".
Accurate molds service includes cutting to cast a specific diameter in the alloy you specify. You can also specify flat nose diameter/length and ring sizes to Accurate and duplicate your interpretation of Keith designs if you wish.
My experience with .44 Mag is with S&W pistols, I have used Keith molds and variants, but not currently. You will find that cast 44 Mag bullets in a rifle are not sensitive to twist rates and the generalization that heavier cast bullets shoot better is valid with the .44 Mag rifle. I honestly thought you wanted to do the best with the mold you have to work with and I gave you my best recommendations just as I would try for myself with that mold. I'd cast #2 big as I could, tumble lube, size/check, tumble lube again, load with Lilgun then go to the range.
2 Alloy will bump up before it gets 1” down the bore at the load pressure I recommended and .430” size/check will be good if that is as big as you can size/check.
If you didn't have any bullet mold at all, I would first recommend the Lee TL-430-240-SWC. That bullet in #2 Alloy, un-sized and tumble lubed only, shoots great from lever-guns right up to the load level I recommended. It's simplicity and performance in 44 Mag rifles is magnificent with zero feed problems and a decent flat nose for Boar. That mold at $21.99 from MidwayUSA is an easy good start while Lee's new mold guide pin design is now at par with anybody and the 6 cavity mold at $41.99 has had that for a while: https://www.midwayusa.com/s?userSearchQuery=Lee+TL-430-240-SWC
Gary
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PETE
I would be surprised it the Miroku M92 Winchester didn't handle the 429421 as well as the Rossi or earlier Browning B-92 versions do. At least the one I shot a while back handled my own Lyman 429421, 429244 and 429640HP loads with aplomb. However, there are many versions of the 429421 made by Lyman and others and they do vary in length. I use full magnum level loads and as usual with a rifle shooting magnum 44 loads the PB'd 429421 was not as accurate as the two GC'd bullets. I always recommend that with a PB'd cast bullet in a magnum handgun cartridge used in a rifle/handgun combo that the load be worked up for accuracy in the rifle using handgun load data. That load will also most often be very accurate in the handgun.
If you find your 429421 functions in your M92 (excellent choice BTW) then you might develop an accurate load for the rifle and then use it in your revolver for practice and plinking. I would highly recommend the Lyman 429640HP cast of 16-1 alloy for hunting over 23 gr of H110. You will find that to be an extremely accurate and deadly load, especially on deer, pigs and elk.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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Ed,
I've heard nothing but good things about the Miroku made guns too. It's why I decided on the Winchester gun. Seems like on other forums all the other makes seem to have problems of one sort or another. More money but apparently less trouble.
Am wondering what the wgt. of that Accurate 43-230G is. Not being up on the Accurate way of listing their bullets, I'm assuming it's a nominal 230 grs.
I've got a Colt SAA, 3rd gen., 44/40 so will keep your loads in mind. Was thinking that if 230 gr., is correct for the wgt. of the Accurate that that would be a little on the heavy side for the 44/40. Thoughts?
Pete The Accurate 43-230G is nominally 230 grains from 1:30 alloy. It is a dual crimp groove design which provides proper overall length for the .44 Magnum or .44-40 when crimped into the front groove, and is correct in the .44 Special and Russian when seated out and crimped in the rear groove. It works well with smokeless loads in .44-40 rifles and revolvers. Lubricant capacity isn't adequate for rifle use with black powder, but if you want a heavy .44-40 bullet with adequate lube capacity for use with Goex powder in rifles the 43-230EB is a good choice, and performs with black powder even in Microgroove barrels using SPG lube!
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Here is 43-230EB, which is intended for blackpowder use.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I have a Miroku/Winchester 92 in .44 Magnum. My Keith bullet is out of a LBT mold and will not feed from the magazine. It's .750” in length with .440” of it outside the case. I also have a LBT 280gr. LFN with .35” nose that does feed at a COAL of 1.650"
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Pete: Well, Ive got a few years on you. So when I finally decided that I was going after a .357 lever gun, my first choice was the Marlin CB. But by that time they were about as scarce as the “92". Did find one but Winchester had a promotion then where in they would reimbuse the sales tax so I went for the Win. Both rifles were about the same price any way. Pretty much the same story as you. I really wanted the short rifle but my dealer finally found the carbine so that is what I ended up with. In the end, not a real big deal anyway for my intended purpose. I haven't done anything to the rifle other than to get rid of that "idiotic” rebounding hammer feature and shoot it just as it came out of the box which was the intent at the outset. With basically the same load as I have used in my .357 revolvers for 50 years it will bust clays at 100 with regularity over the open sights as well as other stuff, and fills the bill for me as just a fun little rifle to shoot. Regarding tang sights. The only one that I am familiar with is the Marbles. I had one put on my Marlin CB 38-55 that is used for lever gun silhouette and the tolerances were so loose that it was useless and a waste of my money.
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R.Dupraz
The Marbles tang sight on my 336CB is tight and has worked well, tho I had to have Marbles install a taller stem on it. But, for serious lever gun Silhouette or gong matches, I will replace it with a Soule type tang sight. Probably a surplus Brg/AET tang sight I have on hand.
Meanwhile, the Orig Lyman 1A tang sight on my Orig M92 Win has served me well. Its tight and good enough for hunting. I have it zeroed for 100 yds. and the buckhorn barrel sight is still there for quick short range in the woods shots.
beltfed/arnie
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Arnie,
Thanks for the info on the tang sight for the Win. M92. Sounds like a viable option.
Pete
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Gary,
I'm not a great fan of bumping bullets up. Prefer to size bullets at the least .0005” over bore. More like .001” to .002". Undersize bullets can lead to all kinds of problems. The base band on that Keith bullet in the OP is not very thick. Actually seems to be to thin for the caliber. Might be a possibility of gas cutting. That's all supposition on my part , but don't want to find out either.
I will be trying the Keith bullet and hopefully can find a load that will work in both the .44 Spec. and rifle. So that will be the first order of business. Might be forced tho to go to another bullet if the note in another post say it won't chamber in his Win. 92.
Pete
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LMG,
Seems to be some thoughts that the Keith bullet won't work in the Win. 92. Guess the only way to find out is to wait for the rifle to show and make a couple of dummies and see.
Your idea of finding an acceptable load for rifle and pistol matches what I'm thinking.
Good point on using handgun data for working up PB bullet loads. Hadn't quite thought of it in that way. Personally I'm not a “magnum” load sort. Preferring something milder for “tin Can” shooting. Don't know what it is about the word “Magnum” that makes people think they ought to be trying for the hardest hitting load they can come up. That's about all you see mentioned in other forums. I chose the .44 Mag. because I can load ballistics for just about any .44 cal. cartridge.
Back in another life I had an OM Ruger Super BH and had jacketed loads for it that would penetrate the side of old cars and bust into the water jacket. Kicked pretty good too! :) When It comes to hunting pigs I'll work something a little stouter than “Tin Can” loads.
Pete
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Ed,
Thanks for the info and pictures of the accurate bullet. Looks like an interesting item. Will certainly keep it in mind.
You mention loading it in a .44-40. I guess I wasn't aware of that. Always thought on a 205 gr. + or - was about the maximum wgt. bullet you wanted to use for that caliber. About all I've seen is the 205 gr. bullet being used almost exclusively. Thinking on it a bit I suppose my 3rd gen. Colt .44-40 would be able to handle it. Do you think the same would apply to the old 1st gen. guns?
Pete
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admiral, Does look like I'll definitely have to check and be sure the Keith bullet will work. Thanks for the input.
Pete
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RD,
I like the look of the SRC carbine but always get to thinking about it rattling around at the worst possible moment. So held out for the Short Rifle. The old timers used to wrap electrical tape around them or take them off. Guess that's why you don't see to many roiganls with the ring still on. Hmmm. Always heard that Marbles sights were about a good as you could get. Back in the day when the old timers would pay us to work their 94's to loosen/smooth them up a Marbles sight seemed to be the way to go. Didn't see to many Lyman(?) receiver peeps. Maybe it was the price difference.
Arnie,
Dang! You guys are making the aftermarket sight option a tough one for me. Guess I'll have to just struggle thru. :) By the time I get done I'll have a small fortune in this Win.
Pete
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hi pete ... tin can shooter, eh ? i like to shoot at them offhand ( saves on tin cans ) ... light loads with the 44 mag are terrific beancan busters ... don't need no stinkin' expansion !!
i know what you mean about getting a rifle to shoot better and then trading it off ... i traded my 44 mag bolt rifle for a ruger3 in 45-70 ... i think i may have gone too far ...
....love those little 92's ... shot one in 32-20 a long time ago ... mostly 31108 in hollow point ...
ken
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PETE
as admiral shows with his LBT keith bullet there is a great discrepancy in dimensions. I think there was an article on that in one of the gun magazines and also a thread on CBF. Both had pictures of different “429421s” of Lyman and other makes. My RCBS Keith bullet was also too long. The Lyman mould I had was a very old one I bought back in '68.
Of course the case length will affect the OAL of the cartridge and my cases were trimmed to 1.28". With those my records show that old Lyman 429421 had and OAL of 1.66". The 429460HP was very close at 1.692 (it was the longest and just fit the M92 I used). Of course the OAL of the 429421 and the 429640HP cartridges for your M92 can be adjusted simply by trimming the cases for a correct OAL for your M92. Trimming 50 such dedicated cases (assuming this needs to be done?) for use with either of those bullets for magnum level loads for deer/pig hunting would be a viable solution if you want to use either of those bullets or perhaps another “heavy".
The Lyman 429360 shot very well with mid-range loads of Unique at 1.65 OAL as did the Lee TL430-240-SWC at 1.615 (crimped in the 1st lube groove). I have a Lyman 4 cavity 429360 mould and a 6 cavity Lee TL430-240-SWCmould. Both of those loaded over 9 gr Unique were my favorite “plinking” loads in the rifle (I owned a M94 w/16” barrel at the time) and my revolvers....... that is until I got a Lee 429-200-RF 6 cavity mould.
The Lee 429-200-RF cast of COWWs +2% tin or my range lead alloy. My RL is very antimony rich and tin poor at 5-6%/1% so I mix it RL +3 lbs Pb + 2% tin. Out of my mould either alloy drops them at slightly over .430 which is fine since I size and lube in a .430 H&I die. Loaded over 6.5 - 7.5 gr Bullseye they are a very accurate and pleasant load to shoot in both rifle and revolvers. For plinking, small game/vermin and just fun shooting I get a lot more shooting per lb of alloy and powder.
LMG
Concealment is not cover.........
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Trying some pretty silly things just because you have them sometimes pans out well. One of the bullets I shoot in .500 S&W rifle is an example.. One day I noticed my Lee muzzle loading bullet, the R.E.A.L 250 gr 50 Cal. casts plenty large to size for .500 S&W. it is a simple little bullet with progressive oversize tumble lube grooves, bevel base and a short truncated nose. It looks like a semi-wadcutter. I cvast some in #2, sized these .502 and loaded them up. What is silly is that testing with the bullet in my rifle lead to a really high velocity load that groups under 1” @ 50 yards. I had no idea the bullet in #2 alloy would stand up to Littlegun pressure and a velocity of 1885 fps verified, but it does and is a fine deer load.
So, try what you have, it is fun and you may get a winner. See my little Lee ML bullet in .500 S&W on the right:
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Pete,
Its not whether the Lyman 429421 Keith bullet will shoot in your M92.
In fact, I can SINGLE LOAD rounds into the chamber of my M92 44-40 directly with such loads crimped into the crimp groove. And they shoot well.
BUT,It is really a question of overall length with the Lyman Keith 429421 because of the longer nose as pointed out above. I found out the hard way. Loaded one into the mag, and then when trying to jack a round into the chamber, the round came back on to the carrier, but the nose of the bullet was still hung up in the mouth of the magazine. I had to push the round with a screwdriver back fully into the magazine and then close the bolt over it and then “jimmy” the round back out the loading port--a real PITA.
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As LMG said, you WILL be able to use your 429421 (as I have) in shortened cases
to feed thru the M92.
In fact 44 Special cases will be just right...
beltfed/arnie
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Gary,
You might be right that not many shooters are aware that bullets can bum pump. Shot to many .58 cal. CW rifles to doubt it. But as I said, I'm not a big believer of the practice.
Appreciate the pictures you put up. The base band on the far right bullet looks about the same thickness as what's on my Keith bullet. That's why I'm not to sure of it's applicability for sticking a gas check on it.
Pete
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Arnie,
I understand about loading over long cartridges singly. But would want to load them like a lever gun ought to be.
We can go on for many messages talking about whether I can load the Keith bullet thru the magazine or have to do it singly. I'll just have to see, and them work from there.
Pete
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Ken,
Most people don't know it but us Iowa boys are the premier tin can shooters. None Better. :)
You traded off for a .45/70? Tell you a little story. Quite a few years ago I did quite a bit of shooting with NCOWS up at Ackley. Their Buffalo match had the shilouettes set in the dirt at unknown distances rather than on a rail. .45/70's would barely knock them over. So my buddy and I figured the next year we would show up with .50/90's. Those 650 gr. bullets actually slammed them to the ground. Rang pretty good too. When I got done they had to reverse the targets because I bent them. When my buddy got done they had to reverse them again. We got a lot of static about that!! :)
Pete
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LMG,
I don't doubt over the years that the Lyman 429421 had a few changes made to it. My mould dates back to the early 60's like yours does. In fact at the time I wrote to Elmer asking which mould I should get for my OM Ruger SBH. He was kind enuf to write back suggesting the 429421 as it was as good as he'd found. Of course a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then and there are probably many designs as good as or better these days. Especially since we have the various twist rates of the different rifle makes. But for someone who at the time didn't know all that much about loading for revolvers..... When the man who developed the cartridge and bullet for the .44 Mag. said something all you could do was say “Yes Sir! I'll jump right on it."
As mentioned I've thought about using .44 Spec. cases. I've got more than enuf of those, but hesitate to go that route, as I'm leery about building up fouling between the case mouth and the beginning of the chamber. I've read that the Win. 92 is a bear to take apart and get back together, and I wouldn't want to do that if I've got to get the fouling out of the throat in order to get back to the full length cases.
Your idea of checking the case lengths is one I'd forgotten about. To many years shooting Bullseye competition. The loads we used in the .45 didn't stretch cases so never checked them. Just went down and checked a few. Haven't grown” a bit.
Might have to look at the 200 gr. bullets too. Somewhere I've got one. Have to dig thru 5 - .50 cal. ammo cans in order to find it. I'll stick with the Lyman 429421 for a while. :)
Pete
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GPIdaho,
Interesting picture. Powder coating is something I haven't tried yet...... Lets not get started on that! :)
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PETE: Sorry about jumping into this thread with that, I pushed a wrong button some where. It' also posted in the powder coat Hy-Tek thread. I might catch on to this computer stuff someday. lol Gp
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Gp,
No problem with adding something many have been hearing about, me included, and might be wondering how they would go about it. So don't be afraid to put in something that might be of interest.
My primary purpose of this thread is to get info on shooting lever guns. Powder coating seems to be an up and coming way of lubing bullets. Can't think of a reason the powder coating wouldn't be applicable in lever guns too. Just because I'm an old timer, (fuddy-duddy), who does things the old way doesn't mean many might not be interested in how you go about it.
As you can see from the previous messages in this thread there's been a lot of info presented for me to try out, as well as for anyone reading this thread. At 76 yrs. old you think I'll live long enuf the try them all? :)
Pete
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hi pete ... before i forget ... i have an extra rcbs 240 gr. silhouette mold for the 44 ... liked it for my rifle; pm if you run out of something to try y i will send it up ...
or i will have to trade for another 44 mag .... oh no !!
kinda off thread but since you like single shots a friend just got a browning 1885 hi-wall saddle ring in 30-40 krag ... he just moved up on my good friend list ..... ha ...
ken
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Ed,
Thanks for the info and pictures of the accurate bullet. Looks like an interesting item. Will certainly keep it in mind.
You mention loading it in a .44-40. I guess I wasn't aware of that. Always thought on a 205 gr. + or - was about the maximum wgt. bullet you wanted to use for that caliber. About all I've seen is the 205 gr. bullet being used almost exclusively. Thinking on it a bit I suppose my 3rd gen. Colt .44-40 would be able to handle it. Do you think the same would apply to the old 1st gen. guns?
Pete Your Colt will handle it fine with appropriate charges. The 3rd Gen. guns can handle modest increases in pressure above factory .44-40 loads, I would not load it as warm as I do my Ruger Vaquero, but you should be fine using pressure tested book loads for 200-205 grain bullets, substituting the 230-grain. and with the pressure increase would probably not exceed 16,000-18,000 cup, which is comparable to .38 Special +P and quite safe for a modern Colt or clone. When crimped in the front lube groove overall cartridge length in .44-40 brass does not exceed SAAMI max. cartridge and the only portion of the bullet base protruding below the neck is the .030” base bevel and perhaps a whisker of the bottom driving band. I load 7.2 grains of Bullseye in my Ruger, I'd stop at 6.5 in your Colt, or 8.5 grains of Unique or Universal. I would be more cautious in black powder frames and stick to the lighter bullets if using smokeless powder, but the heavier bullet will be fine with black, as charge is limited by powder capacity, and with modern solid-head brass you can't get more than 35 grains in the case with this bullet when the charge is compressed. But, the lubricant capacity of the 230G really isn't adequate for firing long strings with black powder. Accurate's 43-230EB is intended as a heavy bullet for hunting use with black powder in the .44-40. It is suited for revolvers and is about as heavy as is stabilized in slower twist barrels with standard loads. It is based on John Kort's well proven 43-215C, the difference being only a wider base band and bevel base. There are also 245 and 260 grain versions of these bullets intended for .44-40 black powder rifles having a faster twist of rifling.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Here is Accurate 43-230EB based on the proven John Kort design.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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The 245 and 260 grain versions are intended for rifles having faster than the traditional 1:38” twist.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ken,
Will certainly keep your mould offer in mind.
As it looks now, without having the gun to try them in, I've made up two dummy rounds with the Lyman 427421 & another Lyman 42798 mould that I have. Seating both bullets to the top of the crimp groove neither will make the OAL (1.610") as listed in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. I assume this listed length will work in lever guns. They work OK in my various revolvers tho which of course isn't critical in that regard..
Does anyone know what the max. OAL that will function thru the Win. 92 .44 Mag. without having to single load?
I suppose I could seat/crimp them over the top band. But not even sure the 427421 will be short enuf then.
Pete
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SAAMI Maximum Overall Cartridge Length for the .44 Magnum is 1.61” and for the .44-40 1.59". Modern .44-40 rifles like the Marlin will feed rounds up to the 1.61” length used for the .44 Magnum, but original 1892s and 1873s require the shorter 1.59” length.
The original #42798 and modern #427098 do not have a crimp groove, as the original intent was for the compressed black powder charge to provide base support for the bullet to prevent it from telescoping into the case under compression of the magazine spring. When loading smokeless powder you want a bullet which has a crimp groove. This is also necessary for revolvers if you exceed light cowboy load levels, to prevent inertial dislodgement.
Accurate has bullet designs resembling #42798, including one having an added crimp groove, as well as other designs of traditional shape similar to the original bullets, which have crimp grooves and adequate lube capacity to prevent foul-out when using Goex powder in rifles.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed,
Interesting. Will have to try that idea out in the Colt .44-40. As is I use the Lyman 42798 in the Colt and even tho it doesn't make the suggested OAL isn't longer than the cylinder. Same goes for that same bullet in the .44 Spec. Load to the crimp groove and no problems. Guess the big thing with lever guns will be keeping the OAL short enuf to be able to feed thru the magazine.
What do you think about pushing the bullets deep enuf to meet OAL spec.'s? I imagine I'd have to reduce the powder charge some due to the reduced case capacity. Ideas?? I've never tried crimping on or over the top band. A good idea.... or bad? I'm looking at about .050” for the 42798, and .082” for the 427421 to make the suggested OAL.
Pete
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Ed,
Your getting a little ahead of me. :)
Of the three in your last post which one would you recommend?
Pete
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Ed,
Interesting. Will have to try that idea out in the Colt .44-40. As is I use the Lyman 42798 in the Colt and even tho it doesn't make the suggested OAL isn't longer than the cylinder. Same goes for that same bullet in the .44 Spec. Load to the crimp groove and no problems. Guess the big thing with lever guns will be keeping the OAL short enuf to be able to feed thru the magazine.
What do you think about pushing the bullets deep enuf to meet OAL spec.'s? I imagine I'd have to reduce the powder charge some due to the reduced case capacity. Ideas?? I've never tried crimping on or over the top band. A good idea.... or bad? I'm looking at about .050” for the 42798, and .082” for the 427421 to make the suggested OAL.
Pete I have not had great success crimping over the front driving band if using smokeless powder in tubular magazine rifle UNLESS using a powder which permitted using a compressed nominal caseful of powder, such as 4198 or RL7 in the .44-40, so that the compressed powder charge provides base support for the bullet, in the same manner that black powder does. When using a “slow” powder in the black powder cases like the .44-40, .38-40 and .32-20, using the standard weight bullet for the caliber, you can't get enough powder into the case to get into trouble, and such loads are safe in a sound 1873 Winchester and perform very similarly to the old pre-WW2 loads assembled with Hercules Sharpshooter. They are also safe for use in revolvers, but you WILL get some burned powder. I have found in my Rugers that the amount of unburned powder does not cause any functioning problems. Velocity and accuracy are normal, to the extent that I carry the same ammunition for both rifle and revolver for hunting purposes. But, yes, as a direct answer to your question. When loading smokeless I want a bullet having a substantial crimp groove which provides correct overall cartridge length. You cannot depend upon tightly sized case necks and bullet pull to hold bullets securely in the .44-40, because case mouths are thin and fragile. You “might” get away with it in .44 Magnum if you shoot less than full-charge loads, but it is not the best technical solution. I use the 43-230G bullet in both .44 Magnum and .44-40 with complete satisfaction. The 43-230EB also works well in both cartridges and is advantageous in the .44 Magnum to take up some of the additional free airspace in the case when loading “medium velocity” loads approximating .45 Colt or .44-40 energy, typically 7 grains of Bullseye, 8 grains of 231, 9 grains of Unique or Universal, 10 grains of Herco or 16 grains of #2400.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed,
Your getting a little ahead of me. :)
Of the three in your last post which one would you recommend?
Pete Of the three in the last post, the 43-215C would be my choice, if limited to those three bullets. John Kort has proven its long range accuracy with black powder, as the target shows.
If loading smokeless only, and wanting one bullet which permits seating to correct OAL in either the .44 Russian, .44 Special, .44 Mag. or .44-40, the 43-230G.
If you want a heavier hunting bullet which is capable of being loaded with either smokless or blackpowder the 43-230EB is hard to beat.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Here is a group which John Kort shot with black powder with my 43-230EB bullets which I sent him to try.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed,
I was hoping you'd say that about crimping ahead of the front band. Doesn't get me excited either.
Basically I would be interested in getting a mould for the Mag. So in post #42 I was thinking the Accurate Arms 43-220c would be the one I'd think about.
Actually I didn't know Accurate Arms made moulds. Did a quick look around but couldn't find where the moulds were listed. The 43-330c mould in post #42 I think would be the way to go. Want the crimp groove but not thinking about shooting BP Got that out of my system a long time ago.
Pete
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220C is a good choice for a traditionally shaped bullet. I designed 230G because I wanted a larger meplat for hunting purposes, and the option to either seat out longer to fit Ruger cylinders and to increase powder capacity, or to maintain standard OAL in guns which required it. I wanted 1 design to use in all .44 calibers and it does that for me.
Accurate Molds is different than Accurate Arms.
Their web site:
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed,
Thanks. Must have made a typo entering the address because I've got it wrote down right. Been a LLLOOONNNGGG day!.
Will check them out and see what they have to say. Think I'll order it, say, .432 that way I can try different alloys without having to order moulds every time I want to try something different, Got 84 moulds now that I collected over the years and don't want to get anymore than I have to.
Think a couple of thousands oversize would be a good idea? Never went the custom way before so I'm a little nervous about this.. This pistol caliber in lever guns is a whole new deal to me. So glad your keeping an eye on me!
Pete
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Ed,
Thanks. Must have made a typo entering the address because I've got it wrote down right. Been a LLLOOONNNGGG day!.
Will check them out and see what they have to say. Think I'll order it, say, .432 that way I can try different alloys without having to order moulds every time I want to try something different, Got 84 moulds now that I collected over the years and don't want to get anymore than I have to.
Think a couple of thousands oversize would be a good idea? Never went the custom way before so I'm a little nervous about this.. This pistol caliber in lever guns is a whole new deal to me. So glad your keeping an eye on me!
Pete I want my molds to cast the correct diameter without requiring sizing. At Accurate you can specify the alloy to be used, so that he can adjust the shrink compensation to what you are using. You can also specify whether you want tolerance as positive, negative or center. For revolvers I specify the exact diameter of the cylinder throat for the nose portion ahead of the crimp groove, and state tolerance negative, so that round will be a close fit, but drop freely into the chambers with speed loaders. For driving bands I specify the minimum diameter I can live with, usually 0.001 under throat size, but with tolerance positive, so with a +0.001 to +0.0015 I usually get an exact fit without sizing, or at maximum tolerance of +0.002 only minimal sizing is needed. If you have accumulated quantities of molds which you no longer use, Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com takes molds in trade towards machine work. That is how I have paid for getting my favorite molds converted to hollowpoint, had lube bleed holes drilled into seater dies so I don't have to worry about changing seating depth, etc. Something to think about. Easier than trying to sell them individually. I have done the same thing for Giorgio in Italy, he off-loaded a bunch of extra molds to accumulate a credit for experimental work he wanted done and we have been enabling each other's efforts in that regard. Overall great fun!
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed,
Ok. Been looking over their web site while waiting for your reply. I can see you can get anything you want, and as you say very reasonable prices. Will take your advice on just ordering the size I want in the alloy I want to use most. Need to think on that last a little bit.
Didn't know anyone was willing to give credit for your old moulds Figured nobody would want them. Will have to look into that too.
Thanks for all your help on this. You've been a tremendous help.
Pete
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Ed,
After a good nites sleep I've been thinking about ordering a 200 gr. bullet rather than that 43-230C you mentioned in post #14. Kind of a question of which wgt. I have the most use for and a 200 gr. bullet would get far more use than a 230 gr. one.
So... Am wondering if you have an Accurate Mold recommendation for a 200 gr bullet that would work in a lever gun? Really like the looks of that 43-230C bullet so something similar would be great.
That Accurate Mold web site is really something. They've got literally hundreds of drawings, like you post, of anything you might want. It's why I'm asking your help in locating an appropriate mold. Is there a way to do a search without having to wade thru the whole list?
Pete
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The 43-205C is a lighter version of John Kort's design which might work well for you.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Ed,
Thanks for the reply. The more I think about it the more I think I'll go with the 205 gr. bullet. Hate to have to wait a month or so for the mould, but .....
A few years back I got in a 100 Mag. cases. Got to checking them out this morning and, MAN, the OAL of them runs all over the place. The few I checked went from a couple thousand under T to L to a couple thousand over max. Never had that happen with Rem. or Win. cases. So guess I'll have to check them all and trim those that need it.
I'd have answered you sooner but had to go pick the rifle up. :)
Pete
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If you really want 200-grain, similar to the original 42798 in that weight with a crimp groove, this one has possibilities. I haven't tried it, but with smokeless it should have more than enough lube capacity.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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Here are the 429434HP and 429215 bullets that have worked well in my Orig M92 44wcf, compared with the Keith 429421 which worked great for my years of handgun silhouette.I like the accuracy of the two shorter bullets in my (slower twist M92) , and of course they feed thru the mag. Surely, Accurate could cut a mold like Ed's 430-200 RFN mold, but with a crimp groove cut. Similar to the old 429434HP that I was fortunate enough to pick up from the estate of an old shooting friend.(I hope the pics work)
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Ed,
Thanks. checked that one out when I ordered a mould. The one I got was the 43-205D. Order said the lead time is 4 weeks at this time. That ought to be enuf time for the weather to settle down here. Had 50 mph wind gusts Sat. & Sun. A little unusual but takes till May to get decent shooting weather anyway.
Now to go down in the shop, shove that 42798 into the case far enuf to make the OAL. Might get antsy enuf to load up some .44 Spec. cases with the 42798 just to see how it shoots. But might be a while before I have any targets to post. We'll see.
Pete
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"Surely, Accurate could cut a mold like Ed's 430-200 RFN mold, but with a crimp groove cut." I meant to say, “to also include a gas check shank. Then , it could be used for light loads w/o gas check and also for heavier loads with the gas check shank.I have found, however that with my modest 44wcf load of 22 gr 4227, my 429434 bullet, crimped over the top band, has not “walked back” into the case from recoil. The load is a pussycat at about 1350fps in my 24” '92. regards,beltfed/arnie
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beltfed,
Your pictures came thru in good shape. Nice looking groups. I assume that 50 yd, group is 5 shots? Gonna be hard to beat that. :)
Yep! Accurate makes all kinds of moulds that would be OK .Notice Ed's. I ended up ordering Accurates 43-205D Looks pretty close to the last picture Ed put up. You'll have to log onto Accurates web site. It'll amaze you the number of different moulds they have available for any caliber you can imagine. And if you come up with a custom design you want that'll be added to the listing.
Pete
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Pete,Actually the 50yd group with the LYman 429215 was only 4 shots that I fired.Prior to that, I had shot a couple other groups of 5, with similar results. Just had the final 4 shots left to shoot up. The other group- at 75 yds, one shot high, and 4 in the 10 ring. Pulled one high.That one is the load with which I shot my second last buck.Good luck with that new bullet. Will be interesting to read more of your experience with your M92 44magbeltfed/arn
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Oh, Pete, I have had leading with the 427098 classic 44-40 bullet, both in SW Rev and in style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"my M92 and a friend's M73. Bullet (from my 4 cav mold) casts too darn'd small, so get bypass/gas cutting. Poor accuracy. Might be ok for very lite plinking loads--perhaps a very soft bullet may bump up enough to make it shoot better. style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"beltfed/arnie
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Arnie,
Got it on the 4 shot group. As close as those two are it wouldn't have surprised my if there were three in there. Don't know what alloy your 427098 is but maybe a little more powder will give you the bump up you need, or a harder alloy might give you another thousandth or two increase in diam. if that's all you need to get a decent fit. As mentioned earlier I had to go to Lino to get a good fit with my Lyman 42798. Don't see anything in the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook listing your 22 grs. of 4227 for the Group 2 riles. If your friend is using the same charge in his Group 1 1873 that seems way to high.
I've never been a great one for using bump up to try and get rid of Leading. Maybe Ed can chime in with something for you to try.
The Kid might be gonna luck out. Talking to a friend who used to do a lot of Cowboy shooting. He said he had a coupla hundred of MBC's Cowboy #5 left over he'd let me have. Looking it up on the MBC web site it's a 200 gr. bullet (.431 Dia.) made up for the .44-40 & .44 Spec. Will have to go over and see what they look like and make up a dummy round to check the OAL. Be something to play with until my Accurate Mold comes in if they work out.
Pete
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There is no substitute for having bullets which “fit".
You cannot depend upon “bump up” being reliable with smokeless powder in any alloy harder than 8 BHN.
With custom lathe-bored molds of highest quality being plentiful and affordable, I cannot understand why anyone would buy a cherry-cut mold produced using 19th Century technology and then have to either “Beegle” it, lap it or excessive size it to make it fit.
Cast your chamber and order a mold in which the forepart of the bullet or front band forward of the crimp groove is either the exact size or not more than 0.001” smaller than the diameter of the unrifled portion of the ball seat ahead of the case mouth, before the rifling starts. Sizing to groove diameter or 0.001' over, as is often recommended does NOT ensure proper bullet fit.
Occasionally you find revolvers in which the “ball end” or cylinder throat is tighter than barrel groove diameter. If the cylinder throat is only slightly tighter, no more than 0.001” under groove diameter, SOFT bullets such as 1:30 or 1:40 and fast burning powders such as Bullseye or Titegroup will work fine. My S&W Model 544 Texas Commemorative .44-40 has .4285 cylinder throats and .4295 barrel and shoots Accurate 43-230G splendidly in 1:30 alloy with 7.2 grains of Bullseye, a full charge load!
If cylinder throats are MUCH smaller than barrel groove diameter, the only solution is to ream the throats. Sometimes you run into a condition where the chamber itself is too small to accept a bullet large enough to fill the throats. Then the only solution is to ream the chamber to provide safe release clearance. A case in point was a Ruger Vaquero .44-40 revolver I bought which had .443 chamber necks, .426 cylinder throats and a .430 barrel. It was well worth $125 to have the cylinder rechambered to provide .445 chamber necks and .4305 throats to use the gun, which is NOW as accurate as any other .44 revolver I own.
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"Ed is absolutely right about not depending on bump up with hard bullets and smokeless. style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"After noting the small size of my lyman 4 cav 42798 and the poor shooting in 44m or M92, I ended up using bullets from this mold, cloth patched in a 45 cal muzzle loader. they shot quite well. Then sold the .45 ML and sold the mold to a friend with a 45 ca ML style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"So,now, I only shoot the 429434 HP or 429215 bullets in the M92. style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"beltfed/arnie
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There is no substitute for having bullets which “fit".
There is a thing called static fit and one called dynamic fit..... both are different animals involving different concepts..... none of which is talked about much here.
You cannot depend upon “bump up” being reliable with smokeless powder in any alloy harder than 8 BHN.
That same 8 BHN air cooled alloy, provided it has antimony and a trace of arsenic, can be heat treated (in the 20 BHN range) to bump up the same at higher pressure with equal reliability and accuracy.
With custom lathe-bored molds of highest quality being plentiful and affordable, I cannot understand why anyone would buy a cherry-cut mold produced using 19th Century technology and then have to either “Beegle” it, lap it or excessive size it to make it fit." This is the understatement of the year. There are a whole multitude of undersized ill fitting molds out there that people use with no realization of how bad they are. The above comments in bold type only are there to flesh out what Ed said, not to dispute anything he said.... which is true.
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Thank you!
73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia
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I,ll agree with what Ed & 452.1 said as far as bolt /single shot guns and revolvers/pistol go. Fit to the bore is essential. But when it comes to lever guns you'll have to tell me how you go about fit to throat and OAL where everything is controlled by the need to function thru the action, which I'm finding out..
I suppose you could single load it but that defeats the purpose of the gun.
Pete
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You want your lever gun to function as a repeater? My goodness!
You are limited by OAL, chamber diameter, leade, nose profile and feed angle. For the little I've worked with lever guns, you are much better off doing the traditional mag tube modifications, stock and fore end fitting, etc, as trying to tune ammo is the least important for hitting at 100 yards more than one shot a minute.
FWIW, Ric
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Here's what I come up with taking the Lyman 42798 bullet and shoving it back into the case so that it would give me the correct OAL to work in the Winchester. Didn't have to size the bullet as it cast .431. I pushed the OAL down to 1.600” which is a little under the recommended 1.1610 max. Didn't try and put any crimp on it. Just enuf to take the flare off the mouth. Don't really plan on using this setup. Just wanted to see if there was any room left where I might be able to put a crimp on. Possibly a taper crimp like we put on the ,45 ACP. Pete
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Ric,
Strange as it may seem I would like the Win. to work as a repeater. Never know when you might be charged by a herd of “Grinnies". Ken might know what they are as the name is more a local tradition. They are an extremely vicious critters and charge at the slightest provocation. They can do serious damage to your ankles if your not careful.
Your right with your suggestions on modifications, but I'm really only interested in getting it to shoot now. One of the reasons I got the short rifle model is it doesn't have the barrel bands, which I understand are a problem. Easily solved, from what I read, but still a lot work I wouldn't think needs to be done if I can get away with it. Not sure how to go about getting a chamber cast as there's not a whole lot of room to work with in pouring one. Hate to spill anything into the action.
Right now I'm just looking at this rifle as a “fun” gun. From the number of hits we've had on this thread it appears a lot of others are interested too.
Pete
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Your picture in post 72 of the un-crimped round shows the case mouth edge on a bearing band. Bearing bands are a suitable area for either roll crimp or taper crimp to cast bullets. Go back and look at my picture in post #26. You see the case mouth end on a band in each of the 3 rounds with different bullets pictured. I have used both bringing flare back to zero and crimping for these rounds on a driving band. Either works fine on all 3 bullets.
You don't have any problems for chamber casting or crimping, just make a decision and do either/both.
Gary
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Gary,
Right now, or next in line, is to take a bullet and seat it long in the case and single load it so I can see how far out the ball seat is. If it's so far out it would exceed the OAL for functioning I don't see the use of bothering with it right now.
Of course if I want to see what the rifle is actually capable of then I'll keep your ideas in mind. But that's a ways down the road. It's a 70 mile round trip to the range so it'll take a few months just to find a decent load at one trip a week.
Pete
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I think I mentioned this before, but if you can find a 1965 Gun Digest, there is a good article on “accurizing” lever guns including carbines in it. I remember one point was to make sure the front barrel band is tight on the magazine tube, but not the barrel itself. If it's tight on both (the article says) the barrel will “grow” lengthwise as it heats up, generally walking groups lower as it heats up.
I know you are not interested in doing any mods to your gun right now Pete, but wanted to put that out there both for you (if you see groups walking low as barrel heats up) and for the rest of the crew.
There is a lot more to the 1965 GD article than this one tip I can recall off the top of my head, worth looking up if you can find it.
You might want to consider loading at the range, given it's far from home, bring a hand press, one of the Lee presses that set up on their own storage box, or a Lyman 310 tool to the range, bring bullets, primed sized brass, and a couple of three powders you want to check out.
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Good idea..."don't forget a powder measure/scale"beltfed/arnie
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Pete,
"next in line, is to take a bullet and seat it long in the case and single load it so I can see how far out the ball seat is.
That is one way to do it and find where the ball seat is. Another way is just drop a sized, not lubed bullet in the chamber with the muzzle down and slap the receiver hard a few tomes to settle the bullet in the ball seat. Use a short dowel to hold the bullet from the base with a 1 pound push then measure from the muzzle to the bullet with a dowel and mark flush at the muzzle. Remove the bullet and rod then close the action and UN-cock the hammer. Use the rod again but measure to the bolt face and again mark the rod flush at the muzzle.
Between the two marks is your reference MAX LOA for that bullet at first contact with the ball seat. For single shot rifles I increase that MAX LOA reference .010” to engage the ball seat for cast bullets. This will work for single feed of a lever rifle.
Gary
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M3 Mitch,
Don't have that issues of Gun Digest, but one of the other Forums I'm on has a “Sticky” telling how to go about loosening up the barrel bands. In fact, reading that “sticky” is what made up my mind to get the short rifle instead of the carbine. The short rifle doesn't have barrel bands.
Loading at the range would be a good idea. I havee a couple of sets of dies for the Lyman 310 tool, and also the Lyman Junior Press that takes the same dies as the tong tool. does anyone know if they make tong tool dies for the .44Mag./Spec., or something I can get ahold of that could be used to just seat bullets?
Arnie,
Got a Harrel Powder measure I use to load at our SS matches, altho none of us change the measures much from known accuracy loads for the particular rifle we're using on any given match day. So never thought of what you guys are suggesting. THANKS!! I could pre-set the measure for different powder charges and powders at home so I wouldn't have to take a scale along. I already have a notebook with a lot of wgt.'s for quite a few powders I use.
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Gary,
Not a bad idea. Will give it a try. Normally at our twice monthly SS matches we breech seat so what you suggest I hadn't thought about. Would be a better way of doing it as just seating a bullet in a case and slowly seating it deeper I'd probably miss the exact point where the bullet was tight up against the ball seat without a lot of fiddling around.
But as I've mentioned, single loading for maximum accuracy is still a ways down the line. Be a month before The Accurate Molds mould shows up, But maybe in a few days I can get some of those Cowboy 200 gr. bullets from my buddy. Then it's just waiting for some decent weather (temp/wind) to show up and I'll be off to the races.
Pete
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Picked up those 200 gr. MBC Cowboy #5 bullets today. Here's a picture of one of the bullets and a round loaded to 1.600” Bullets mike a strong .430” As you can see just to get the length I did is due to the case length being .005” under trim to length. Could have set them in a lot further I suppose but this works and has a strong crimp. Nothing special about them. Just something to shoot till the Accurate mold comes in. Pete
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Gary,
Looked over my stock of 310 dies but nothing there that would work with the .44 Mag. Do have a complete set for the .22 Hornet! :)
Didn't know they still made them anymore. But see Lyman has them so ordered up a set.
Pete
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A little older post, but I came across it while looking at for will and won't work in a Winchester 92 in 44 Magnum. The RCBS 44-250-K and the 44-240-SWC (gas checked) will not feed in mine in magnum brass. Both cycle well when loaded in special brass.
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I concur. I've had a Miroku Winchester 1892 since 2012 or so, and I love the thing. I bought a 250 grain round flat-nose GC design mould from Accurate Molds to fit it, and it performs very well. Twist rate is about 1-24", as best I can tell. Throat diameter is a few tenths over .430", so I size castings to ,431" and use Hornady .430" 44 bullets when j-words are indicated. With these bullets it is a 2"-2.25" rifle at 100 yards, open irons.
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A Marlin 1894 .44 Magnum I owned in Illinois thus it's about 40 years old with Micro-Groove rifling. Micro-Groove shoots well if you fit the chamber leade. Harry Pope barrels are shallow rifling and they shoot well. Frank Marshall called this type of rifling "Micro-Pope."
I picked up an Ohaus three cavity copy of the Keith 240 grain bullet at a gun show and this with 20.4 grains Alliant 2400, wheelweight scrap alloy, sized in a .431 die that just touches the bullet and crimped on the crimping groove. This shoots well, under two inches at 100 yards, if I do my part. This load also shoots well in my Ruger Super Blackhawks.
Farm boy from Illinois, living in the magical Pacific Northwest
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mashburn 6
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Pigslayer
5
