NOT a PC vs Traditional Lube comparison, but....

  • 1.2K Views
  • Last Post 03 February 2016
Jeff Suever posted this 01 February 2016

DISCLAIMER: As the title says, this is NOT a “PC vs Traditional lube” thread. I don't want to start a war on par with Chevy vs Ford or Mac vs PC. I am just going to share some initial results I stumbled on and let the chips fall. The original intent was NOT to compare the two and declare a “winner". The original intent was to do two load workups in the way I wanted to make the bullets and see if either was viable. I know the alloys are different. I would not PC an expensive, hard alloy. I also found out previously that a soft, cheap alloy would not work with traditional lube in this gun. I used different sizing dies. If I PC a bullet, it's going through a Lee push through sizer. If I traditionally lube a bullet, it's going through the Star. So, here's two “oughta work” options. Let's see if either- or neither, are any good. I hope this is useful or at least makes us go “hmmm, that's interesting”¦..” My goal here is to contribute a bit of information in exchange for the massive amounts I have taken over the last two years.

A bit of back story. Having cracked the code of the Lee 356-120TC in an HK P-30 via the long distance assistance/mentorship of one of the more seasoned veterans here (hint: straight range scrap + tin will result in leading no matter what. HT/Q, lubed with Ben's Red and an overcoat of BLL brought it down to manageable levels. By “manageable” I mean that after 300 rounds, there was just a bit in two of the “grooves". Always the same two.) I wanted to try the Lee 358-125 RF. I had experimented with this briefly several months back and got excellent accuracy”¦.for about 15 rounds. Then it leaded badly. I put it up and went back to focusing on the 356-120 TC and used the 358-125 RF with traditional lube in a pair of revolvers to much rejoicing.   The Chair of the Decorating Committee(wife) remarked that she liked the 125g bullets, but the residue from the tradiional lube was making her hands dirty. So, in an effort to make her life better, I got some high quality powder in her favorite color (blue) and set her up. Then I figured, “As long as I'm PC-ing a bunch for her and sizing them to .358, might as well do a bunch and size them to .357 for the HK and see if THAT works better than before. And while I am at it, might as well cast and lube a bunch in the alloy I made for the 356-120TC that eliminated the leading issue for that bullet and see if THAT works better than before.”  

So, what I ended up with was a bunch of bullets made from straight Range Scrap + tin that were powder coated and a bunch made from an alloy I mixed up. I had the Range Scrap tested with an XRF gun and it came in at 99.2% lead, .8% antimony. I added about 1.5% tin to it. The “Custom Alloy” I made tested at 94.4%PB, 4.2%SB, 1.4%SN. Rich on antimony, I know. That was my first attempt and it worked for the 356-120TC. I am trying it diluted now, but that is for another post.  

I also had some Power Pistol powder on hand that I wanted to try. So, the only logical thing to do was to do two load work ups and see if I like either one. So I did that. I did my best to maintain consistency throughout and am confident of that at least. At the end of the day, both batches were made how I would do it if I was making them in bulk later.

All groups were shot over a Caldwell Chronograph. There were a few flyers that I am saying were “called” because I went “rats” right after the shot went off. I knew I either flinched, twitched or shivered in the cold. They are highlighted in yellow on the attached Excel sheet. I recorded each one as I shot it, but did not do a “shot for shot hole for hole” count so I cannot tell you which hole was shot number 7 on such and such a load.  

Range Day I shot the PC first, cleaned the gun with my normal routine and checked for leading. Naturally, there was none, but there was some blue buildup from the PC in the chamber. Not a lot, but enough to say “looks like we scraped at least once". Photo attached. So, my takeaways from this little exercise:<>Don't try to test loads when it is 48 degrees. Too dang cold for me. <>Need to rerun the test in the summer just to see if the heat makes a difference. An email to Alliant on the temperature sensitivity of Power Pistol returned an answer that was useless. <>The traditional lubed bullets get the nod for accuracy by “just a little” <>The powder coated bullets get the nod for cleanliness by “just a little". There was a little minor leading that came out of the Traditional Lubed one with a little Chore Boy and Shooter's Choice. <>Either one will probably be just fine as I'm not that great a shot anyway and the time difference between lubing via a Star sizer or PC is probably lost on the time spent loading and cleaning. I can load PC bullets just a wee bit faster and the gun cleans just a bit faster. <>Pretty sure I could mess with PC and get it to shoot as well as the traditional lube here. Maybe a faster powder, different OAL, etc. Also pretty sure I can get the traditional lube to not lead. Maybe a harder lube, etc.   So, with all that said, please see the linked Excel sheet. You should be able to click the links to the targets. Link: https://goo.gl/BFWUwW>https://goo.gl/BFWUwW If you can't access the sheet or would like a downloadable copy, please let me know.

Edited to change the sheet location to Google Docs to control editing and formatting.

Order By: Standard | Newest | Votes
onondaga posted this 01 February 2016

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=9053>Jeff Suever

I read and got as far as, "straight range scrap + tin will result in leading no matter what"

That is wrong. Either the bullets don't fit the gun or the alloy does not fit the load. Either is a correctable situation and definitely not a ....no matter what situation.

Statements like that make the rest of your post look like non-fat word salad.

I know you are new, but you won't get that kind of incorrect statement past successful cast bullet shooters.

Range scrap + Tin begins to obdurate at 10,200 psi load pressure if bullets fit or not. That alloy permanently deforms and begins to lose accuracy at 11,400 psi for plain based bullets. Gas checked bullets will go about 10% higher in load range.  Either you are out of the load range for the alloy or the bullets are too small to bump up to a fit with your load. If you are in the load range and the bullets throat  fit with ink check, you have a firearm not suitable for cast bullets due to firearm dimensions or metal finish.

Lots of lubes and coatings work fine, but none of them compensate for the basics of making cast bullets work by fitting the firearm and the correct alloy for the job. Get those basics correct and smudged on ear wax is a good bullet lube. You need nothing fancy. Example: loaders that can't get tumble lube to work got a lot of other stuff causing the problem.   Gary

Attached Files

Jeff Suever posted this 01 February 2016

Hey Gary,

Thanks for the reply, and you are right, I should have put in there the disclaimer “this gun". Issues related to improper fit were ruled out. That was about seeing if I could make Range Scrap + Tin perform as well as COWW in THIS GUN as defined by equivalent accuracy and cleanup. A polygonal rifled HK. It does not.

You'll note Range Scrap + Tin was used successfully in the revolvers so there was no intention of ruling it out of other applications.

As far as “non-fat word salad", I am not sure what you mean other than either A. I should have been more brief. Fair point. Apologies. B. You mistyped and meant “non-fact". In which case if the concern is someone calling into question my integrity after reading the post and looking at the spread sheet based on one sentence. All I can say is that is on them.

Thanks,

Attached Files

John Alexander posted this 01 February 2016

Jeff,

Thanks for an interesting post.  The forum could use more reports of experimentation especially on the newish topic of powder coating. We appreciate you taking the trouble of bringing it to the forum.

I look forward to reports of your future work.

John

Attached Files

gpidaho posted this 01 February 2016

Thanks for your post Jeff. That you are having any success shooting cast bullets in your polygonal rifled HK is a step up on me. I bought an aftermarket barrel for my Glock 17 to get it to shoot lead. Gp

Attached Files

onondaga posted this 01 February 2016

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=9053>Jeff Suever

Glad I didn't rile you too bad. You can make either of those alloys work at a compatible load level for the alloy and a fit for the firearm. They are both usable.  Some shooters, all they have is range scrap and Tin. I wouldn't discourage them by disparaging what they have in their inventory to work with.

I'd rather encourage you to learn to work with what you have rather than discount it for yourself and others.

There is not a lot of universal answers. I believe it has been established over 50 years that 38 special to 357 Mag do very well with certified Hardball alloy when the bullets fit. Low level loads work well because the bullets fit and high level loads work well because the alloy is strong enough. That is a good selection for the entire load range of the caliber, again, fit is first and completely verifiable with ink.

Gary

Attached Files

Jeff Suever posted this 02 February 2016

gpidaho wrote: Thanks for your post Jeff. That you are having any success shooting cast bullets in your polygonal rifled HK is a step up on me. I bought an aftermarket barrel for my Glock 17 to get it to shoot lead. Gp Thanks for the response, GP. It was definitely  a team effort and I learned several ways NOT to do it. Fortunately one of the members here has patience and no quota on his inbox size. Lol. I wonder if some of them just get hammered in such a way that makes them fussy.

Attached Files

Jeff Suever posted this 02 February 2016

No worries, Gary. All good. I agree completely on fit. If you'd like I can PM you the steps taken to remove that from the equation. Let's just say it started with slugging the barrel and using the “cleaning rod method” to set OAL, but did not end there. Have a good evening. onondaga wrote: http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=9053>Jeff Suever

Glad I didn't rile you too bad. You can make either of those alloys work at a compatible load level for the alloy and a fit for the firearm. They are both usable.  Some shooters, all they have is range scrap and Tin. I wouldn't discourage them by disparaging what they have in their inventory to work with.

I'd rather encourage you to learn to work with what you have rather than discount it for yourself and others.

There is not a lot of universal answers. I believe it has been established over 50 years that 38 special to 357 Mag do very well with certified Hardball alloy when the bullets fit. Low level loads work well because the bullets fit and high level loads work well because the alloy is strong enough. That is a good selection for the entire load range of the caliber, again, fit is first and completely verifiable with ink.

Gary

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 02 February 2016

Thanks for sharing your results, Jeff.  :fire

I'm not a semi-auto shooter so I can't offer any advice particular to loading semi-autos.   And I'm relatively new at coated bullets, but like most I've found that most coatings greatly reduce leading in “problem” loads.   I think of coating as a liquid paper patch.   Or a paper patch as a roll-on coating.  :D   Either way, the coating protects the bullet from the hot gases.

So far I've found that coated plain base bullets prefer a softer alloy than conventional cast bullets. 

And I've found that coated bullets benefit from a lube, at least if you push them hard enough, though lubed coated bullets would prolly be overkill for your application.

There are better lubes than the ones you mentioned.    There are a lot of misunderstandings about bullet lube, but that's another story.  :coffee

Attached Files

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 02 February 2016

jeff ... enjoyed your report .... as you are aware .... when we say anything about cast shooting, the earth beneath our feet begins to crumble and fall away ... heh ...i have been trying for years to come up with a little card with 3 or 4 rules for cast success ... so far all the rules start with ...” maybe ” and ...” usually ” ...

lately i have been thinking of the preface for each rule to read ...” just for fun try this ... ” ...

i done be casting bullets for 60 years and can say it has never been boring ... my saving trick is to adjust my goals depending on current results ....

ken

Attached Files

Jeff Suever posted this 02 February 2016

MTNGUN: Interesting that you find plain based bullets prefer softer alloys than conventional (slight bevel?) based. I wonder if the opposite is true- meaning those with a slight bevel prefer a slightly harder alloy. I've not heard that. I have a couple of batches of Ben's Red with higher concentration of beeswax. One is about 57% and one is 65%. The 65% seems to be just about on the line of what will flow through the Star without heat. My next batch of traditional lubed I may give the 57% a try. It does stay in the lube grooves and is a bit cleaner. I do know there are tons of lube recipes and have considered the SL68 a couple of times, but it looks like a pain to make. Truth be told, if I can't do it with Ben's Red or Lithi-Bee I'll probably just buy something from Lars White Label Lube. Ken:  Brilliant strategy there. Adjust the goals depending on outcome. lol “I meant to do that.” And yes, I fully agree that sometimes it's one thing to do something once.....it's another to get the same results twice. Good to know this never gets boring. You have to like puzzles, that's for sure.

Attached Files

Newt posted this 02 February 2016

I have switched over to powder coating all my handgun ammo. MTNGUN is right though, they do like softer alloy. In fact, I honestly do not know what alloy I use anymore. I keep a “scrap” pile of lead to use for handgun bullets.

But, I only use plain base(except one 357 mold) and I am only shooting 25 yard max. At those distances the rounds are very accurate after finding out what load they want.

First pistol I ever started loading cast for was a 45 colt black hawk with the infamous barrel frame constriction. I worked with that gun forever to finally get it to shoot with minimal leading, including a lot of fire lapping. Finally found someone that gave me some plain base gas checks. But they would not have been needed had I known about powder coating back then.

Attached Files

mtngun posted this 02 February 2016

Jeff, I intended to say that coated bullets plain base bullets seem to prefer a softer alloy compared to uncoated plain base bullets (as opposed to gas check bullets which seem to play by different rules).    Flat base vs. bevel base makes no difference regarding alloy.

I'm trying not to hijack your thread but Ben's Red lube is not the answer, nor is more beeswax the answer, nor is anything that flows without heat the answer.      The Ben's Red recipe is typical of the misguided belief that a “lube” should lubricate, hence the grease, STP, ATF, carnuba wax, and other slippery ingredients that people add to homebrew lubes.    The best lubes are stiff and tacky, and will require heat.   Rooster HVR is my favorite but sadly is no longer in production.  :(    White Label Carnuba Red is a close second.   Thompson Blue Angel is good in wheelguns.    And there may be a few others.    

The main job of a “lube” is to help create a gas seal, like an o-ring.    In theory if you had the perfect bullet in the perfect barrel then it would seal without any lube, and in fact this has been done occasionally at modest velocities.     In practice the gas seal is usually a weakness of our cast bullets and they benefit from a stiff, tacky “lube” that functions as an o-ring.   The “lube” probably does provide some lubrication, too, but the lubrication requirements are minimal.    Just my 2 cents.  :D

Thanks again for sharing your data. :)

Attached Files

Jeff Suever posted this 02 February 2016

Hey mtngun,

Thanks for the clarification on the bullet base as well as the lube. Definitely not a hijack as in the original post I put in there that I probably could fiddle with the traditional lube a bit and bring it to zero leading. So that might be a good suggestion. Possibly going to a lube that is hard enough to require heat would make a difference. That would certainly jive with what Fryxell says about lube hardness in relation to magnum revolver loads.

We could always get a stick or two of Carnuba Red and try it out. What's the risk? Worst case scenario I am out the equivalent financially of a McD's drive through and have a little extra scrubbing to do.

Hmmm......

Attached Files

Jeff Suever posted this 02 February 2016

That's interesting, Newt. I like the fact that my revolvers (shoot mostly 38 SPL through S&W Mod. 66) seem to like “mystery metal” well as long as they are sized right and the lube is decent. Have a good day!

Attached Files

gpidaho posted this 02 February 2016

Jeff: I'm in agreement with mtngun in that the function of “bullet lube” is not so much lubrication, that being a secondary and minor benefit, but that it's primary function is to act as a piston ring to prevent gas cutting. When we get to the various coatings the analogy of paper patch is in my opinion exactly how they work and much easier to accomplish with fumbling old fingers. When speaking of handguns with conventional rifling, I've yet to find an alloy that doesn't work when powder coated but I do agree that the softer alloys produce a more accurate round. Gp

Attached Files

Jeff Suever posted this 03 February 2016

Well, it's good to hear an agreement that softer alloys seem to work better PC'd because I had planned to relegate PC to Range Scrap bullets moving forward and Range Scrap is soft....and free to me(at least for now as I am able to reclaim from our range). So that's a pretty cheap alloy. Just time and the cost of tin. We'll give Carnuba Red a shot at some point and see if it makes a difference. Just for curiosity sake. I've got decent records with the current lube, so if we run similar alloy we should see if there is a difference...or not. Since it is such a minor issue, it's worth a shot. At some point I'll do a load work up with this bullet, PC'd and using a faster powder too. Just to see if that improves the accuracy. Thanks,

edited due to formatting

Attached Files

Close