What I have learned about making Powder Coating Easier

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Jeff Suever posted this 24 December 2015

The below is from an email I sent to a friend who suggested I post it here. Powder Coating is not for everyone. It's not a “purist” bench rest, 2 inch hole at 500 yards kind of thing. It's a “use cheaper alloys and have prettier colors” kind of thing. There is some talk of accuracy, and it is generally on par. Some guys get better, some a little worse. In some ways, I think the jury is still out, but if there was a horrible degradation it would have been called out.

What you are about to read is a combination of things I have picked up from other forums  and then validated with my own experience.

Some time back I gave Powder Coating with Harbor Freight Red a try but I was not entirely happy with the way it turned out. I used the Dry Tumble with Air Soft BB method as I do not have a spray gun. Got acceptable coverage, but I still got some leading in my HK with polygonal rifling. Not a lot, just a little. Plus it just was not a “smooth, even coat". I understand it won't be with the DTASBB method, but it just seemed too gloopy to me.  When I cast the bullets, I was “casting fast” with them and I had the little divots in the base when cutting the sprues. This caused them to stick to the foil and generally be a pain. Yes, I used non-stick foil. Yes, the right side was up. In general some of them stuck to the foil causing me to have to try to peel tiny bits of it off. Not all, but some. Combine that with the immense PITA of shake-shake-shake pick out 10-15, shake shake shake, pick out 10-15 and it was a nightmare. I thought it might have to do with humidity so I tried it inside. No luck. I bought a Star.

At any rate, in an effort to make some Christmas presents for the Chair of the Decorating Committee I decided to give this another try. I had much better results this time and here's what I learned:<> Get powder from Smoke4320 over on the Cast Boolits site. You can find the contact info http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?252509-Hi-Quality-Powdercoating-Powder-For-sale>here. I know guys use Harbor Freight, but I'm here to tell you there's a difference. I made this last batch outside in the shed, next to the door, while it was raining. In Florida.<>Container. There is a lot of talk about cool whip containers, food storage containers, anything with a #5 in the recycle emblem. Don't. I tried several different ones. Cool whip is too deep. Makes picking them out a pain. Large shallow ones make a mess because the lid will #%@^&#(@! pop up about 1/8” while shaking..JUST ENOUGH TO MAKE A MESS. Get the round, Glad mini food storage containers that hold 12oz of water. They are the right size. You can hold it with one hand. <>Put enough black air soft BBs in for about 1.5-2 layers. No more. <>Throw in a fist full of bullets. about 50 358-125RFs seemed about right <>1.5 - 2 rounded teaspoons of powder seemed to work. Too little and you don't get coverage. Too much and you have clumps. <>With these containers you can hold the lid on tight with one hand while you swirl it for about 20-30 seconds, then, with both hands, shake it up and down like a little kid with his brother's soda can(Sorry Doug. Yeah, that was on purpose 40 years ago). The vertical shake is critical. It also seemed to be a little better if I didn't “burp” the container, but I can't say for sure on that one. <>Pick them out being careful not to touch the driving bands and set them on the non-stick foil. <>Have three pans to rotate. <>Bake at 400 degrees using a PID if you have it. Wait until the temperature has recovered to 400 degrees, then wait until the powder looks like it is melting, then start your 10 minute timer. (I wish I could credit the original source on this tip as it is a good one. I tried a search, but no luck.) Doing it this way I got the coverage I wanted.....most of the time. I could put about 50 bullets in, shake, get somewhere between 25 and 40 out, then shake for the rest of them. Too many BBs and it didn't work. Too many bullets and it didn't work. I chased this several times previously thinking it was technique, humidity, etc. I did this out in the shed tonight, next to the door.....and it was raining. I really think the size of the container was the key.   With three trays, you should be able to get about 50-75 per 10 minute batch. It takes 10 minutes to shake and place 50-75. Probably 4-5 batches per hour is reasonable. I used a mini spring loaded needle nose pliers. I am told hemostats speed things up. With hemostats rather than needle nose pliers you might be able to get to 100 a batch. A guy might be able to get 4-500 an hour, but not any more unless they are just dumping them- which some do.    The keys I found are:<> Powder from Smoke <>Small container to shake in <>Vertical shake <>Not too many BBs or bullets <>For production you need three pans, one cooling, one baking, one loadingI have not shot these yet, but they are for medium charge 38 SPL and the size (I use a Lee push through for this) is proven to be fine with various traditional lubes as well as Ben's Liquid Lube. I hope this is useful for someone trying to get into it.

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Myflatline posted this 15 October 2016

GP, thanks for gettin my point across. For me , it's still trial and error...but I do enjoy that part immensely.

PS, thanks again for the babbit. :dude:

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HandsOff posted this 15 October 2016

Now I understand what you meant by adding malleability. That's good to know, because brittleness can definitely become an issue when trying to go harder. Sounds like copper babbitt can be useful if used correctly. Thanks

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gpidaho posted this 15 October 2016

HandsOff: Metallurgy isn't my strong point and my FrankenAlloy is usually a mix of what's on hand at the time. Most often I get the mix too hard and have to add pure lead and maybe some tin to bring the BHN down a bit. “Dilution is the solution” as Ed said. I'll try to explain my use of copper babbit in the mix as best I can. Malleability is what I'm looking for when adding copper. If I decrease the pot temp to almost spout freeze I find the alloy has an elastic look and feel to it. There's a fine line to enough and too much copper in the mix. Again, I go a little rich and dilute. I find that the added copper does a very good job of taking the brittle out of a hard cast bullet and to be a worth while addition to the alloy if you're casting bullets for hunting where fragmenting can cause problems. Gp

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HandsOff posted this 15 October 2016

Hard to say what's in the scrap I get. Mostly slugs, various jacketed, 22 & a sprinkling of cast. I've gotten some lino from ebay and rotometals. I've got some super hard that I originally bought for making buckshot. I may have to break down and buy COWW to mix in. My hope is that heat treating/gas check/powder coating will work out. I'm also checking into swaging jackets from spent 22lr cases so I don't have to worry about hardness or gas checks, and won't have to give up much velocity. It's a big investment up front, but would pay for itself over time. I've got to scrimp and save for that though. Thanks

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Myflatline posted this 15 October 2016

THe range scrap should give you the arsenic you need, I started water quenching and gained a few BHN. GP sent me some copper hard babbit, I did a small mix but only added about 5%. I wasn't looking for hardness but what I call “malleability” or toughness. I shoot all Lever guns so don't have a need for the high BHN as of yet. My ideal is 10 to 13. Good luck. You might search for some linotype to add for hardness, I bought some off ebay years ago fairly resonable.

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HandsOff posted this 15 October 2016

I'm in the same boat as Myflatline. Lead WW are akin to hen's teeth here. Pure lead from old pipes, etc. and range scrap are all that's available. I've recently been wondering about alloying with copper hard babbit. I want to cast .224, so I need a BHN upwards of 20. Being on a fixed budget, money is the real issue. I can sprend a little here and there at rotometals, but it sure can add up fast; especially when trying to achieve high BHN levels. I'd be powder coating. Elvis Ammo on youtube has been pushing Powder Coated (from Eastwood) 55gr Lee .224 to 2500 fps. He's using 22 BHN from COWW without gas checks. Please share your babbit knowledge with us. I'm also interested in heat treating, but everything I hear about heat treating lead mention the arsenic in COWW (that I can't get in my area).  I can't find info on whether or not alloys without arsenic can be heat treated? That would help attain much higher BHN levels. I could always add some #8 magnum shot to the mix for the arsenic, but I hate to waste that. Thanks

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Myflatline posted this 07 June 2016

You are quite the Gentleman, PM inbound

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gpidaho posted this 07 June 2016

Myflatline: “Mr. way thrifty” lol PM me your address and I'll share a little of my new found wealth, as a man that appreciates a little copper in his alloy I think you could use a little copper hard babbit for experimenting with your soft lead alloys. Gp

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Myflatline posted this 06 June 2016

GP, I haven't started casting for the 9 or 40 YET... Glad to hear you like my idea about the soft stuff. My 44 mag pistol/ rifle and 357/35 rem are running 9 to 12 bhn with no leading and good accuracy. I think I need to get a touch harder for the 444 tho.

My problem here in the backwoods of Florida, is there is plenty of soft lead ( at this time) but no hard lead. You will come to find out, I'm way thrifty..RotoMetals is well out of my budget.

Thanks GP

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gpidaho posted this 06 June 2016

Myflatline: With the 45ACP being a low pressure round, as long as you have no problems on the feed ramp, I'm with you on the big splat theory for varmints (Two legged or four). With powder coated rounds in autoloaders, I load 9 Luger 40S&W and 45ACP for both pistol and carbines and the 300AAC Blackout for both a single shot Handi rifle and a 16” carbine upper on my RRA AR. As I rarely shoot anything but target paper and beverage cans my alloy runs harder, usually between 12 and 17 BHN. Gp

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Myflatline posted this 05 June 2016

So far the only autoloader I am casting for is the 45 acp. I used almost pure soft lead and powdercoated. They fed fine,shot as good as I can shoot in a pistol (no marksman BTW) My theory, was to have a “splat” versus penetration. Often the armadillo does not even flinch when a round ball passes thru. Also, for home defence, I want them down and hurting. I may be wrong in my thinking, what do you all say?

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gpidaho posted this 27 May 2016

Myflatline. Well, I was riding the 40 S&W carbine pretty hard but I think it was more of a fit problem than any other factor. It's pretty rare to lead up a bore when powder coating. It's pretty easy to figure out a revolver or bolt gun and just plain simple with the single shot Handi's, doing a pound cast and the like with bolt guns tells the story but I haven't tried it with the little autoloaders and with them I could use a little tutelage. Thanks for the photos and comments. Enjoy your evening. Gp

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Myflatline posted this 27 May 2016

Thanks GP,  Any time you want to compare loads just let me know. You mention leading, I guess I have been very lucky/fortunate that I have had no issues.I currently PowderCoat for the 35 Rem, 44 mag Rifle and pistol, 357 rifle and pistol, 30-30, 45 acp and am working on the 444.  I have even softened up my lead to a 9-10 with no issues.  I'm sure you know but the only time I had any issues with the coating was when my toaster oven lost an element, It never got to the 400° it needed.  Hope that helps.

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gpidaho posted this 26 May 2016

Myflatline:  Great to have another PC'r here to compare notes with.  I've been working with my autoloaders lately, pistol caliber carbines and a 300 Blackout upper on an AR.  Good news this week, I've got the Blackout running like the old sewing machine. (finally)  And the bad, I got a 40 S&W carbine leaded up pretty bad.  Yah, it happens to us powder coaters sometimes too.  Well, I'd rather clean a leaded bore than one that's badly copper fouled any day. Nice looking lever guns. My 35Rem and 444 Marlin are Handi Rifles but would be happy to exchange loads with you through PMs if you like.  Welcome to the forum, glad to have you along. Gp

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Brodie posted this 26 May 2016

gpidaho, Don't worry they are still out there.  They just changed the name from Black Talon to something else.

B.E.Brickey

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Myflatline posted this 25 May 2016

Old post but I would like to add my take on the PC. I have been using the powder coat instead of lube for over 2 years. At this time, I do not exceed 2000fps, none of my levers require that much speed to get accuracy. I have had no leading what so ever, great accuracy, clean tools and some vibrant colors. The Harbour Freight powders do well in the spray method, while better quality ones work better for the tumble method. I am sold on this coating, I shoot mostly rifles or rifle/pistol combinations.

Thanks for having me here on the CBA Jim

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 17 January 2016

thanks newt ... i continue to be interested in these coatings ... mostly because it just seems they shoulkd work ( g ) .

on your observation on ” fouling shots ” ...i think we usually need them in cast bullets ...remember our magazine is named just that ...

i keep in the back of my mind ...that barrel conditioning ... is important in our groups ..... fwiw in rimfire with $300 barrels ... it is necessary to shoot up to 20 shots before the zero stabilizes ...so are our 4 inch groups partly because of a random zero ?? outliars aren't necessarily liars ...

keep up your reports, we will learn along with you ...

ken

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Newt posted this 16 January 2016

I was a little off in my previous weights. I weighed some plain bullets, then the gas checks, and the weight of the powder coat on .223 is .5 grain or less.

That distributed over the entire bullet, I believe, is insignificant to the stability of it. It would take almost the entire coating on one spot to cause issues. I would think that there are voids/imperfections that weigh more than this.

Not trying to make a case for it, but just sharing my findings.

On a side note, did some testing this evening with .226” bullets. My gun did not like them at all.

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gpidaho posted this 15 January 2016

Don't forget the infamous Winchester Black Talons, that's what I still use for personal protection in my carry gun. Glad I stocked up while they were still available. Gp

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mtngun posted this 15 January 2016

I would assume that the common powder coats are all thermosets.    

Federal used to offer nylon coated pistol loads, though.  NyClad.

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