Who loads cast in .380 ACP?

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

I succumbed to temptation and have on the way a 1934 Beretta autoloader in .380 ACP which I plan to try cast in, to compare with my .32 ACPs and .38 Colt New Police. My interest is in heavier bullets, using the 37-125T Accurate mold, which I ordered to drop .358 instead of the .365 diameter which is normal for it in the 9mm Makarov.  This is essentially the 31-087T bullet for the .32 ACP, simply increasing bullet diameter. I have been using 9x17R (.380 Rimmed Short) brass with this bullet in my circa 1930 Colt Police Positive in .38 Colt NP and will be using that data as a basis to start in the .380 ACP for the Beretta pistol, since case length and capacity is similar.  Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition has data for #358242 which also provides starting data which will be useful. Anyway, if anyone is loading cast in the .380, particularly with heavier bullets above 100 grains, I would like to know what you are using.

 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rockquarry posted this 19 October 2015

Ed- I no longer have any .380s, but used the SAECO #377 truncated / flat nose (122 grains, wheelweight alloy) seated to an OAL of .960” with 2.5 grs. 231 for a muzzle velocity of 800 fps. I used this load in a Makarov and at least one PPK/S; accurate and, as I recall, it fed and functioned well. 2.8 grains Unique did as well with a MV of 789.  Powder charges could probably be increased slightly. Never tried Bullseye, but according to my old notes, accuracy suffered with Blue Dot and Herco.  Good luck-

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

That helps. Thanks!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 19 October 2015

My .380 is a Bersa Thunder. The Brazilian wonder gun. It's not highly thought of for some reason but people who have them tend to like them. Mine is so dependable and accurate that it's hard to believe. I can't make it malfunction if I tried. Ammo thru it has ranged from fmj import with strange writing on the boxes to modern HPs and a lot of cast bullets. I use two Lee bullets in my .380. The 358-125RF and the Ranch Dog designed TLC358-100-RF. Both are loaded as cast from COWW tumble lubed in 50-50 LLA. Ranch Dog published a lot of load data for the .380 and made a distinction about what loads are ok in what guns. Gotta pay attention. His loads are always upper end stuff. My GP loads contain either W231 or SR4756. I shouldn't name any numbers because my record keeping can be faulty.  Both these bullets have been very accurate in my gun. At 15 yds. they go exactly where they're pointed. The rest is on me.   _P  In California when you get a CCW you have to qualify with a specific gun. Then you can only carry that specific gun. Up to 3 guns are allowed on the permit. One of my 3 is the little Bersa. I trust it as much as anything else I've ever had. AND it loves cast bullets!

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

I'll check out Ranch Dog's site for .380 data. I figure the wartime, steel-frame Beretta is as strong as anything short of a locked breech. I know that my .32 ACP Berettas handle cast 31-087T with a compressed caseful of Alliant #2400 and run like a scalded dog at 900 fps. No drips, runs or errors...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 19 October 2015

I agree, strength shouldn't be an issue for the Beretta. Ranch Dog's data lists two different guns with different data for each. Some of the difference he attributes to handling recoil. I think he did that work just before the micro .380 wave hit. For a while there it was hard to find .380 brass. Anyway, my loads are not really mysteries. I'm just shy. Lyman gives a lot of .380 cast bullet data and my W231 and 4756 loads are straight from the book. It appears the super fast powders such as Bullseye peak out pressure wise before giving much velocity. Lyman hit 1,000 fps with a 90 gr. cast bullet, 3 1/4” barrel, using W231. I'd start with W231 if I was starting over with the .380. W231 is also their 'accuracy' powder with a 120 gr. RN and good velocity/pressure.

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

Case support is the main issue. If there is significant residual chamber pressure as the slide opens, the case head will look like it is about 3 months pregnant and the primers start backing out. When fired cases start looking like they were fired in a primer-actuated Pedersen self-loader you are over the edge!

If cases look OK, fit back into the shell holder and resize OK, the loads are OK as long as the frame doesn't crack from continued use with higher recoil impulse loads. In that case the magazine body usually takes a beating first, and if you get indents from the bullet noses striking the inside of the magazine box, well therein lies the clue! Try shooting WW2 German 9mm SMG loads in an Astra 400 for an INSTANT demonstration!Does not blow the gun up, but in inspecting the empties you will wonder why not?

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Larry Gibson posted this 19 October 2015

Most .380s are straight blow back operation and can get battered with the use of heavier than normal bullets as the slide velocity to the rear is a function of the mass/velocity of the bullet/powder gasses going forward. I've settled on the Lee 356-102-1R bullet over 2.5 gr Bullseye loaded in just about any case with CCI or Winchester SP primers. I've used that load for 35+ years in my AMT Backup and numerous other .380s from old to the current new crop. It functions fine in all and gives very good accuracy.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

LMG wrote: Most .380s are straight blow back operation and can get battered with the use of heavier than normal bullets as the slide velocity to the rear is a function of the mass/velocity of the bullet/powder gasses going forward. I've settled on the Lee 356-102-1R bullet over 2.5 gr Bullseye loaded in just about any case with CCI or Winchester SP primers. I've used that load for 35+ years in my AMT Backup and numerous other .380s from old to the current new crop. It functions fine in all and gives very good accuracy.  LMG More good info.   I know from previous experience with the .32s that a heavier Wolf recoil spring is your friend!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 19 October 2015

TTurner kindly sent me some of his RD 100's to try last year. They are the most accurate light bullets I have tried in 38 Specials. My granddaughter likes to shoot revolvers when she comes over to the desert, so they make a great load with 3 grains of BE.

I've only loaded for two 380's, an AMT Back-Up and a Remington 51. The 51's floating breach block will break if you shoot loads that increase slide speed. Since parts have not been made in 90 years, you will be better to have your broken one welded and spend the time filing it by hand to fit again. And re-hardened! This is not the one to experiment with full power loads.

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

Reason I picked the 1934 Beretta, plentiful, affordable and rugged. Roy Dunlap in his book Ordnance Went Up Front said it was almost impossible to hurt one. He set his up with a recoil spring made from the smaller diameter bolt return spring for an M2 cal. .50 BMG and he said it would handle all manner of hot loads..

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 20 October 2015

Good choice on the '34. I've had them off and on since 1964. Even shot a woodchuck with one!

(only reason I don't reload for it is that it's an auto-brass-thrower)

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Ed Harris posted this 20 October 2015

TRK wrote: Good choice on the '34. I've had them off and on since 1964. Even shot a woodchuck with one!

(only reason I don't reload for it is that it's an auto-brass-thrower) I bought a bucket of range brass off GunBroker, over 1100 for $50 which I am sorting into batches, the odds and ends will be assembled into stuff I can shoot and let fly.  The better stuff in more plentiful quantity lotted up into like batches for experimental use etc.  I also got a good buy on 1000 rounds of Fiocchi 95-grain FMJ, which I will stash half for long term, and use the rest for recreational plinking, etc.   Not sure I would actually carry the .380, but if I ever decided to, I have some 102-grain Remington GSHP which is supposed to be a decent load if fired in a full sized pistol with 3-1/2” barrel, versus the more fragile JHPs intended more for the micro guns, which upset too quickly and fail to penetrate from a “normal” barrel. My handloading goal is to approximate a 2” .38 Special snubbie.  I figure that if I can get 850 fps from a 125-grain flatnosed bullet, that would do the job.  Once I've done basic charge establishment and determined that the loads are reliable and accurate, I may have one or more cavities of my 37-125T Accurate mold converted to a cup point of about 110-115 grains, sort of like a Speer 200-gr. .45 ACP “Ashcan” scaled down. My reasoning is to do a cup point of .187” major diameter set in the .227” meplat, with 15 degree draft angle, then truncating the core pin at .25” depth, grinding a smooth radius at the point edges for easy release of the bullet, leaving a .05 flat at the base of the pin.   I had my 37-125T cut to drop a .358 bullet instead of the .365 as spec'ed for the 9x18 Marakov, for which it was originally designed. This bullet works great in the .38 S&W or .38 Colt New Police with 2.7 to 3.0 grs. of Bullseye, giving 800-850 fps from a 4” revolver.  Identical to 125-grain .38 Special non+P from a 2” gun.  A bit warmer than the USGI Ball M41 load of the Vietnam era. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 20 October 2015

Good plan!

I did that with 2000 once-fired 38 specials!

(Yes, I would love to have a 38 Special AUTOMATIC.)

 

 

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 October 2015

great thread ... i am on my 6th IJ 9mm makarov .. not one jam yet !! every time i get one my buddies decide they need mine ... heh .

i shoot lee cast or bulk commercial lead ...about 90-100 gr ... use 3 grains of TRAP 100 ... got a bucket of it left over from shotgun days .

i put a new higher rate spring in them first thing .

might mention that i had one factory cci blazer aluminum case blow out, mini shrapnel cut the trigger finger slightly ... a reminder that straight blowback is a balancing act ...

just some trivia

ken

oh yeah ... the bersa thunder ... around here they go cheap because the 1911 guys shame the owners into dumping them ... watch for used ones, i have seen them under $200 in mint condition .

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M3 Mitch posted this 20 October 2015

I did a little loading for a PPK/S in .380, using bulk cast bullets of about 90 grains, round nose with one lube groove, not much bearing surface.

Ed, I think you have written that the old PP Walters tend to shoot better than the more recent PPK/S, and that has been my experience.

I didn't have much success with cast bullets in the PPK/S, and eventually traded it off. That was probably at least in part due to the bullets I was using, and maybe because the PPK/S are not in general that accurate.

My general impression is that it's easier to get a good accurate load with a .32 ACP than it is with the .380. As I am saying way too often for a guy with a hard science degree, these observations are based on informal shooting, not real quantitative testing.

In general I have had good luck with Unique in these small, odd-ball cartridges. 

Most auto-loaders I like to work up to a load that will lock the action open after the last shot consistently, and then quit while I'm ahead. 

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jeff houck posted this 20 October 2015

LBT has some designs that work well in the small semi autos. Send him an e-mail and ask his advise on a heavy for caliber bullet and nose style. Jeff

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Ed Harris posted this 20 October 2015

Jeff Houck wrote: LBT has some designs that work well in the small semi autos. Send him an e-mail and ask his advise on a heavy for caliber bullet and nose style. Jeff

Thanks, but I have an Accurate mold based on a design which has been extremely successful for me in the .32 ACP and 7.62x25 Tokarev, cut with the same form cutter, simply increasing the diameter to .358 and  I plan on using that first.  It has been working well for me also in the .38 S&W and Colt New Police. and should be a reliable feeder in the Beretta. I'm familiar with Veral's small autopistol bullets and I'm sure one of his would work well, but I want to use what I have first before getting yet another mold. 

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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bruce1940 posted this 21 October 2015

Ed I am working on cast bullets Lee 100gr RDlyman 356242 90grlyman 356242  120 grStraight Linotype It will be a week or two before I have any good comment.Pistols Lama 380 (old Stoger ver.)           Lama 380 newer version There is a difference in the way the barrel links.Both are like new except they are orphans.Lama went out 2or 3 times.I have 2 Ruger LCP 380'sCarry one and keep theother in safe for backup.My loads have been with hornaday HP XTP 115grand a copper bullet from FMP 

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Ed Harris posted this 25 October 2015

Assembled some rounds with Accurate 36-125T to check feeding. Overall length needs to be less than 0.975 to avoid edge of nose dragging in magazine. At 0.97” the .030 bevel base rests against the rolled cannelure on Fiocchi brass and seating depth is the same as 95-grain FMJ hardball based on a bullet length of 0.46” for the hardball and 0.48” for the 125T.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Ed Harris posted this 25 October 2015

Here is meplat comparison between Winchester 95-grain FMJFN “Train” ammo and the 36-125T

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 26 October 2015

Looking forward to a range report! Offhand I would expect the cast load to shoot high, if the sights are “on” with the 95 g hardball. How much does the cast bullet weigh, what alloy are you using?

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Ed Harris posted this 26 October 2015

Bullet weighs 125 grains in wheelweight alloy.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 October 2015

geepers ... bet those 125 gr wide nose would be interesting plinkers in my beretta 92-9mm . awaiting further ...

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 27 October 2015

We already know the 155D version works fine in the 9x19mm using 3.0 to 3.2 grains of Bullseye and feeds well in Dennis Carlini's SIG P210.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 27 October 2015

A time consuming, but fairly practical way to get the bullet weight down could be to use a Forester hollow-point rig to drill a hollow point in these, if for some reason 125 g turns out to be a bit heavy for the .380.

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M3 Mitch posted this 27 October 2015

Thinking about heavier bullets in blow-back operated pistols and about how a heavier bullet probably gives a higher slide velocity - am I correct in thinking that the momentum of the bullet + powder gas (I recall using half the powder mass as an estimate of the equivalent momentum of the escaping gases) is going to be equal to the momentum of the slide? Ignoring friction of course.

If the above is true, would it also be correct to say that the distance the slide moves back before the bullet clears the muzzle is inversely proportional to the ratio of slide mass to ejecta mass and proportional to barrel length - that is, to make the math easy. let's say the slide weighs 100X what the ejecta does - so for a 3” barrel, the slide would open .030” before the bullet clears the muzzle (and, I would think, pressure drops dramatically). So if the head on the brass for this theoretical gat is at least .030 thick, one could expect no problems with the brass bulging out due to the slide opening “too soon"? Of course I'm ignoring the feed ramp, actually one would need .030 worth of solid head beyond the feed ramp, although, if only a little of the side wall where it is thicker gets over the feed ramp before bullet exit, one could probably get away with this?

If the momentum conservation above is correct, could one estimate slide velocity just by the inverse of the mass of the slide to the mass of the ejecta? So if we use the 100:1 above, if your bullet is going 850 FPS, the slide would be coming back at 8.5 FPS?

Or am I out to lunch on this?

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 27 October 2015

good on you for using conservation of momentum to approach this problem. i would add ” impulse ” to your toolbox .

impulse is .... force x time .... and is the change in momentum due to that force .

i like ( need ) to simplify ... so first let us consider a pistol with the slide totally locked . then the mv backward is the same as mv forward . if the pistol was hanging in space you could calculate the acceleration, distance, etc. of the slide-gun ...

same if the slide was friction free and no outside force acted to resist the rearward mv of the slide . as it zinged past your ear ...


but... oh no !! first the case at ignition grabs the gun for a various time ... so the wholegun mass enters the mv .... then about the time the case de-couples the frame mass, the recoil spring ( and the shooter's body momentum ) enters the ... uh ... equation ... now the slide picks up the mass of your body ... a variable impulse ...

oh my ... but at least the total momentum both forward and backward can be calculated from the mass of the ejecta at the time there is no further impulse acting on the gun . probably about the time the bullet is 1/10 inch clear of the muzzle .

still, if each parameter were known, the system could be ” simply ” solved ... the hardest part would be putting values to the parameters .


i do find it interesting the design of the highpoint straight blowback pistols ... i would like to have been there when they were adding lead shot to the slide of their 45 auto to make it function correctly .

ken

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M3 Mitch posted this 27 October 2015

Another approach would be to just do F=M*A, and figure out the average pressure on the bullet from it's mass, cross sectional area, and apply this to the same (approximately) area of the case head pressing on the slide.

I think the forces involved are large enough that the case gripping the chamber don't matter much - depending on how far back the grip can be considered to be active, what's the tensile strength of the brass and what's the cross sectional area? Probably we could use a SWAG and go about halfway up from the inside of the case to where it goes to minimum thickness. I have read about postulated reduction on bolt face thrust due to the case's grip on the chamber, even in full loads in bolt action rifles, but have always been somewhat skeptical. I'd like to see some measured data.

I also think that the force on the slide is orders of magnitude above what the recoil spring force is.

Of course my initial analysis post assumes for simplicity no friction, neglect the recoil spring's force, and assume a rigid shooting hand that does not move at all. I'm thinking that for figuring how far the slide opens before the bullet leaves the muzzle, we can make these assumptions because the hand does not move much. Although particularly for longer barreled handguns, the muzzle does move up enough that a bore sight on adjustable sights will have the gun shooting a good bit low - this last I have seen from experience, if you have a good set of bags and an older SAA you can see this for yourself, since when you cock the hammer the firing pin hole can be used to look through the cylinder and barrel, bore sight on a target say 50 yards away, keep the gat still somehow and then look where the sights are.

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M3 Mitch posted this 27 October 2015

M3 Mitch wrote: Another approach would be to just do F=M*A, and figure out the average pressure on the bullet from it's mass, cross sectional area, and apply this to the same (approximately) area of the case head pressing on the slide.

I think the forces involved are large enough that the case gripping the chamber don't matter much - depending on how far back the grip can be considered to be active, what's the tensile strength of the brass and what's the cross sectional area? Probably we could use a SWAG and go about halfway up from the inside of the case to where it goes to minimum thickness. I have read about postulated reduction on bolt face thrust due to the case's grip on the chamber, even in full loads in bolt action rifles, but have always been somewhat skeptical. I'd like to see some measured data.   “Everybody knew” that when priming on a regular single station press, the reason the process seemed so rough is that the press had “too much leverage” until Finn Aagard pointed out the fact that it was a lack of leverage that made this process rough.  I wonder if the same is true for the idea of the case gripping the chamber and reducing bolt thrust (to any useful extent, anyway, certainly it does grip and reduce thrust some, I just doubt it's much)

I also think that the force on the slide is orders of magnitude above what the recoil spring force is.

Of course my initial analysis post assumes for simplicity no friction, neglect the recoil spring's force, and assume a rigid shooting hand that does not move at all. I'm thinking that for figuring how far the slide opens before the bullet leaves the muzzle, we can make these assumptions because the hand does not move much. Although particularly for longer barreled handguns, the muzzle does move up enough that a bore sight on adjustable sights will have the gun shooting a good bit low - this last I have seen from experience, if you have a good set of bags and an older SAA you can see this for yourself, since when you cock the hammer the firing pin hole can be used to look through the cylinder and barrel, bore sight on a target say 50 yards away, keep the gat still somehow and then look where the sights are.

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Ed Harris posted this 27 October 2015

It is interesting to compare past and present, and US vs. CIP loading specs.

When SAAMI used radial copper pressure measurement the maximum average pressure for .380 ACP was listed as 18,900 cup, which compares very closely with the pressure limits used for .45 ACP and standard pressure .38 Special at the time (late 1970s).

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010) does not cite a SAAMI maximum average pressure, but none of the radial copper pressures listed for their published .380 ACP loads exceed 16,000 cup.

Current SAAMI Maximum Product Average is 21,500 psia

CIP standards based on Piezoelectric measurements are:

Pt Max (machine loading limit) maximum sample average 1350 bar, (bar x 14.5037738 pounds per square inch = psi) 19,580 psi

Pk (statistical max. individual pressure X-bar+3Sigma) 1553 bar = 22,524 psi

Pe (Firearm Proof Pressure max. average) 1755 bar = 25,454 psi

I know from experience looking at proof cases fired from a blowback-operated pistol, that ejected cases look about 3 months pregnant.

If primers to not back out and case heads are not grossly expanded, sound, well-made cases will hold easily to about 20,000 psi and reload repeatedly with no worries.

The key is that the feed ramp and chamber must support the case well, and the recoil spring must be sufficient to avoid battering of the frame.

Roy Dunlap in his book Ordnance Went Up Front, suggested using the inner operating spring from a Browning M2 cal. .50 machinegun, and making a new recoil spring guide from a Browning machinegun operating spring guide.

If anybody has any .50 Browning parts lying around, I am interested to aid in my experimentation, to supplement my spool of heavy string and whittled tent stake which snugly fits the magazine well to hold the pistol once solidly driven into the ground...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 29 October 2015

Ed, how much Bullseye did you use in this load, and how did you come up with a safe starting load?

I have never seen printed data for .380 with that heavy a bullet.

Or maybe that's why you are talking about firing the first round or two using a string?

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Ed Harris posted this 30 October 2015

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010) has data for 120-grain #358242 on p.246. None of the loads exceed 16,000 cup. A charge of 3.2 grains of 231 gives 946 fps from a 3-3/4” test barrel. 2.1 grains of Bullseye 750 fps. I'm shooting a tad more Bullseye than that to get 800 fps.

I initially tested my Bullseye loads loading in Fiocchi 9x17R brass (.380 Rimmed Short) and shooting them in my Colt Police Positive in .38 Colt New Police. If all six empties extract easily from the 1930 vintage Colt, pressures can't be over 18,000.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 30 October 2015

I guess I need to break down and buy that 4th edition Lyman book. Not looking at my manuals right now but I don't remember any data for that heavy a bullet in .380.

This should be a good-shooting load.

I'm wondering if my Lugers wanting to lead with the bullets I have used so far, (124 g truncated cone point) might be due to the bullets being undersized, and that the 9mm version of this bullet would be worth trying, particularly if custom cut to fit the larger of the 2 guns's ball seat. Have been blaming the leading on the 10” twist of the 9 but could be wrong about that.

At least I guessed right that you would load it with Bullseye!

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Ed Harris posted this 04 November 2015

Range Report:

Beretta M1934

Fiocchi 95-gr. FMJRN 984 fps, 25 Sd, 86 ES, n=7 rds.

Remington Ultimate Defense 108-gr. JHP 893 fps, 27 Sd, 60 ES, n=7 rds.

Winchester 95-grain FMJFN Train, 891 fps, 17 Sd, 44 ES n=7 rds.

Accurate cast 36-125T, 2.5 grs. Bullseye, OAL 0.955” 836 fps, 11 Sd, 29 ES, n=7 rds.

Accurate 360-125T, 6.3 grs. Alliant #2400, 863 fps, 24 Sd, ES54, n= 7 rds.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 November 2015

better than good enough !!

maybe we need a pocket pistol postal ... 32 y 380 ( y 9 makarov ) ...

i have never tried my makarov on a bullseye ... hmmm ...

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 04 November 2015

The Accurate 37-125T bullet which is the basis for my 36-125T, just ordered in smaller diameter, was intended to cast .366” for the Polish P64 pistol. My particular mold drops .360 as-cast, if those would work for you I'd be happy to cast and send you some some naked and unsized. It would be grand to test them in a MAK for the FS.... Otherwise if you wanted to contact Tom at Accurate Molds, he can cut one to fit your Makarov or whatever.  This bullet works well in all those with 2.5 of Bullseye for 850 fps +/- or all of the Alliant #2400 you can compress into the case with a magnum small pistol primer!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 04 November 2015

thanks ed ... i think the 0.360 would be too small, as i have been using 0.365 unsized in my mak ... i bot about a 1k of commercial bullets and still have some left . using 3.0 gr hodgdon trap 100, now obsolete .

if you are curious if i had 2 dozen i could try them, but my chamber probably won't like them . i think .

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 04 November 2015

It would be best if you ordered the Accurate mold to fit, but if you wanted to try some .360-.361 I can send..

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 04 November 2015

Good skullduggery all round, Ed! Good idea, good casting, good loading, and good shooting. Old Duke would be proud!

Is there any real advantage in the 2400 load? Besides a few more FPS of course? I guess it would “fight” any tendency to push the bullet back into the case.

In my own limited experience, Unique seems to give me the best accuracy in small oddball pistol cartridges. Maybe you should try some?

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Ed Harris posted this 04 November 2015

M3 Mitch wrote: Good skullduggery all round, Ed! Good idea, good casting, good loading, and good shooting. Old Duke would be proud!

Is there any real advantage in the 2400 load? Besides a few more FPS of course? I guess it would “fight” any tendency to push the bullet back into the case.

In my own limited experience, Unique seems to give me the best accuracy in small oddball pistol cartridges. Maybe you should try some?

No advantage to the #2400, just wanted to try it.      Haven't seen any Unique in 4 years.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 19 January 2016

Ruger LCP Range Report:

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 19 January 2016

More with the LCP

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 19 January 2016

And for comparison the same loads fired from the M1934 Beretta

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 19 January 2016

Factory ammo in LCP for comparison

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 January 2016

hey ed ::: hug your beretta ... a guy brought me a jammed LORCIN 25 last night to fix ...

OMGoodness ... i told him to never never pull that pin out ...


i use 3 gr trap 100 in my 9 makarov ... a 380 clone... almost ... i only load lead in it, shoots great ... i got a big box of trap 100 about 20 years ago.... love those 3 grain loads ....

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 19 January 2016

An article on the M1934 Beretta pistol will come along eventually for The Fouling Shot. Glenn has several others of mine scheduled ahead of it in the que...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 19 January 2016

That Beretta does seem to like the Bullseye load! The Ruger is no slouch, plenty accurate for CC.

I'm looking forward to reading in FS about the Beretta. I have to consider picking one of these up!

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Ed Harris posted this 19 January 2016

A sneak preview of some of the highlights:

“Le armi le carica il diavolo” (the Devil Loads the Guns!)

...I asked Giorgio to inquire of a retired Carabinieri NCO veteran of many UN peace missions, how they carried their Beretta pistols. All of them, he says, the old 1934 and the double action 92 were always carried with the magazine full and chamber empty.

In Italy in particular, as well as in most of Europe, whether in the police or Army, the pistol is viewed as a badge of authority, not as a primary combat weapon. Guns are deemed “an evil necessity.” “Le armi le carica il diavolo” is an old Italian proverb, which accurately describes this philosophy, it means, “The devil loads the guns.”

This attitude dates back to the era of horse cavalry, in which the primary weapon was a lance or sabre. Pistols were a backup weapon, secured with lanyards to keep them from being lost. The grip safety of our M1911 pistol was specified by a cavalry officer to prevent accidental discharge of a dropped pistol dangling on its lanyard while being jostled by a galloping horse! European butt-located magazine releases forced the user to positively grasp the magazine in order to withdraw it, reducing risk of the magazine being dropped and lost. Fast reloading was not felt important or necessary.

Carrying an automatic pistol with its chamber loaded was felt to be dangerous. Allied pistol instruction prior to WW2 was purely “academic,” formal bullseye firing. Modern combat pistol technique as pioneered by Fairbairn & Sykes was taught only to commandos and covert operators. Typical WW2 soldiers of both sides received only minimal training and were “not to be trusted with a loaded pistol...”

...The best evaluation of the 1934 Beretta pistol I have found read in English was penned by none other than Roy F. Dunlap...in Ordnance Went Up Front, (Stackpole, 1948)...

"The average military man cannot hit ”¦ anything with a pistol. As a rule the bigger the gun, the less he hits”¦smaller calibers are easier ”¦ to handle. A hit with a .380 beats a miss with a .45!.

...“I like the Beretta, and regard it as, by far, the best standard sized auto loading pocket pistol in the world”¦(its) rugged simplicity keeps it ”¦running when (sand) brings”¦(close tolerance) double-action Walthers and Mausers grinding to a halt.”

“”¦The Italian Army Model 1934 9mm Corto, outnumbered all other (war trophy) pistols (in the ETO) combined”¦ one of the sturdiest and most reliable auto pistols ever made... The only broken part I ever saw”¦ was a hammer, in which the gun was dropped cocked and locked onto concrete. The service stocks have steel backing plates so if the composition panels are cracked or broken”¦parts are held securely, so that function of the gun is not affected in any way. The magazine holds seven cartridges. The gun is very well designed and made. I have never been able to cause a malfunction in one without actually bending the steel magazine lips with pliers!”¦

“”¦Berettas”¦are simple to work on”¦having only 36 parts, none”¦frail or subject to easy breakage”¦although many GI's needed a fixin' job”¦because Standard Operating Procedure in the Italian Army, if capture was imminent, was to remove the thumb safety and drop it into the desert sand. GIs were always bringing me Berettas having ‘a hole in the middle' and asking for me to make the part...So, I got pretty good at it...

The rest you will have to wait for.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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M3 Mitch posted this 19 January 2016

You know, not to thread-jack, but, I am thinking my previous problems with the .380 and the 9X19 - mediocre accuracy and leading - are probably mostly a function of too-small bullet diameters. I have previously blamed the 10” twist of my 9X19 Lugers for making them bad to lead (compared to the .30) but now I'm thinking to try some bigger diameter bullets. The 9X19 I have been using an RCBS mold that more or less duplicates the truncated cone design originally used. I'm pretty sure these cast .356 (which is probably the best diameter for more modern 9's). Really need to do a chamber cast, although, just disassembling the Luger and pushing the .356 bullet into the ball seat, see where the rifling engraves it. I need to get a mold like you are using here, at least I think I do.

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 19 January 2016

m3 .... sounds as if you are on the right path now .... mainly delving into the problem a bit further .

usually the best scenario is when you have a bullet that is as tight in the throat ( even in a pistol ) as the ammo will function properly.

even in a pistol it is close to what mr. onondaga here says it :: as big a bullet as can ” easily ... or snugly ” ... chamber . remember that in an auto pistol reliability might temper that a little, a controlled burst is so much fun ... heh .

most 9mm do have the 0.355-6 grooves but still might be able to use the 38 special .....0.357-8 bullets ...

the only way to get the best fit is to measure your own gun ...

good luck and keep us informed ,

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 19 January 2016

My friend Dennis Carlini has been getting excellent accuracy in the 9mm Luger in a SIG P210 pistol using Accurate 36-155D cast of wheeleights and sized .357 using LSStuff 45-45-10 and 3.2 grains of Bullseye with Federal 200 primers in Starline brass. He uses the same bullet in the .38 Super with 3.5 grains of Bullseye, and in these two accurized match guns he gets 2-inch, ten-shot Ransom Rest groups at 50 yards. Velocity is about 900 fps.

I believe Giorgio is using this bullet also in the 9x21? or maybe it is 9x23mm...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 January 2016

kinda getting away from strictly the 380 ... but embarrassingly enough, gun show commercial cast bullets that are terrible in my 357 security six shoot just fine in my 9mm beretta 92.... might be the 0.357-3575 fit i suppose ...

if you try heavier bullets in a 380 be careful of charge as they take up a lot of case space ... work up carefully .

ken

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Ed Harris posted this 21 January 2016

The Accurate 37-125T was designed for the 9x18 Makarov pistol, I orddred this basic design with nose diameter reduced to. 355 and driving bands to .357 and have had good results in both the .380 ACP and 9mm Parabellum. 36-125T not officially listed in catalog yet, but you can order it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Eutectic posted this 23 January 2016

Ed,I have had 4 380's three were Colts and are gone, presently I have a Ruger LCP.The Colts were good guns but I want a double action for serious social use. I was never comfortable with cocked and locked with the Colt. A friend owns a Walther PPK, so we had plenty to play with. Commercial 100 gr TC advertised as for the 380 were 0.355. They leaded and were inaccurate, I think I still have what is left of the box  somewhere. The 100 gr. SAECO #371 was the most used. 3.2 gr. 231 gave 880 fps and SD 11. The largest diameter we could use in mixed cases was 0.357. We could use 0.358 bullets in selected cases, I believe Remingtons were OK, and did not have a fast taper. OAL of 0.950 worked best. The Oregon Trail 115 gr. round nose is available in 0.357 and was the most accurate in the Colts. I worked up to 3.7 gr Power Pistol which gave 816 fps, and 3.0 gr 231  which gave 834 fps. Both 115 gr loads functioned perfectly in the Colts, but iin the Walther recoil was stiff. We need a stronger spring, or perhaps the heavy bullet is not a good idea in a blow back. I tried the SAECO #377 a 125 gr TC which works well in the 9mm. It seats to deep with a useable OAL.  I never tried 2400, interesting!  Steve Hurst

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Pigslayer posted this 27 January 2016

Ed Harris wrote: I succumbed to temptation and have on the way a 1934 Beretta autoloader in .380 ACP which I plan to try cast in, to compare with my .32 ACPs and .38 Colt New Police. My interest is in heavier bullets, using the 37-125T Accurate mold, which I ordered to drop .358 instead of the .365 diameter which is normal for it in the 9mm Makarov.  This is essentially the 31-087T bullet for the .32 ACP, simply increasing bullet diameter. I have been using 9x17R (.380 Rimmed Short) brass with this bullet in my circa 1930 Colt Police Positive in .38 Colt NP and will be using that data as a basis to start in the .380 ACP for the Beretta pistol, since case length and capacity is similar.  Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition has data for #358242 which also provides starting data which will be useful. Anyway, if anyone is loading cast in the .380, particularly with heavier bullets above 100 grains, I would like to know what you are using.

 Curious . . . Did you order your mold with the front band also at .358? Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 27 January 2016

Front band is .355 with nose tolerance negative to enter factory throat of Ruger LCP. Driving bands are .358 tolerance positive.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 02 February 2016

I am casting .380 bullets this week. Will offer samples to anyone who will load, test fire and report his results for use in a future Fouling Shot article.

Current plan is to approximate 96-2-2 Pb-Sb_Sn SOFT alloy to do some expansion tests with the 114-grain hollowpointed version of 36-125T. In casting those I will generate some solids of about 10-12 BHN, if anybody would like to try them in their .380 pistol with 2.5 grains of Bullseye for ~830 fps they are hard enough. I doubt that they would hold up to higher velocities in 9mm Parabellum. They run large enough as-cast to load in .38 Special. If anyone wants to validate the bullet with about 4.2-4.5 grains of Bullseye in a .38 snubbie, you can join the party.

PM me if interested!!!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Pigslayer posted this 02 February 2016

PM sent.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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45 2.1 posted this 02 February 2016

PM sent.............

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Pigslayer posted this 02 February 2016

First off, I think that this thread needs to have a few “stars” put in front of it as it is a very interesting & informative topic!! In fact it has inspired me to go looking for a .380. I've looked at the Ruger LCP & also a Glock. The Ruger seems to give the most “bang” for the buck although I like the Glock too. I'm expecting a few extra bucks at the end of the month and if that plays out I will be ordering one!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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tturner53 posted this 02 February 2016

My Bersa is very accurate and reliable. Just not very sexy.

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Pigslayer posted this 06 February 2016

I have decided to order the Ruger LCP Custom as the LCP Custom has a windage adjustable rear sight. The price is right too! Gonna order it next week.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 10 February 2016

Pigslayer, you have a SFRB of bullets on the way for your LCP when you get it. There are enough to try in a .38 Snubbie as well.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Pigslayer posted this 10 February 2016

Thank you so much ED!! Looking to order my Ruger LCP Custom this weekend. Today when I got home there was a package that I ordered containing 300 once fired .380 brass. Mostly Winchester & Federal & all cleaned up for $18.00 plus tax. Getting prepared!! Thanks Again Ed! Pat    

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 17 February 2016

FYI inspected my 36-125T hollow-point mold and a tiny bit of lead splash I didn't notice on on the block face had “Beagled” the mold so that it was dropping oversized castings.  Heated up the mold on a hot plate and brushed it off and all is well now.

The cavities which Erik modified to HP have a somewhat larger .25” meplat, which also feeds fine in the LCP. Having only one cavity left in the 3-cavity mold I decided to get another set of blocks so that I could run solid FNs in harder alloy and segregate solids from the modified HP mold for the .38 S&W.

So I ordered another 3-cavity Accurate mold with the diameters adjusted for the .380 and also with the bullet shortened slightly to 0.47” overall so that the meplat is now 0.255” or 0.7 of bullet diameter. This is as large a meplat as will feed from the Ruger LCP and M1934 Beretta. 

This small auto ogival wadcutter design should give great crush performance and deep penetration at pocket pistol velocities.

And it is now listed in Accurate's online catalog as the 35-122T

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Pigslayer posted this 20 February 2016

Bought a Ruger LCP .380 today. Will pick it up next saturday. Gotta wait on the MD background check.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Pigslayer posted this 29 February 2016

Picked up my Ruger LCP .380 today. What a nice little pocket pistol it is. Used but in like new condition with four clips for $250.00 plus tax!!

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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oscarflytyer posted this 05 March 2016

Ed - only semi-followed this thread. Recently got a Ruger LCP .380. If you have a few loaded rounds and want shooting data/feedback, would be happy to shoot 'em and provide feedback and send back the brass and any factory brass I shoot to you.

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Ed Harris posted this 05 March 2016

I prefer not to ship ammo. I don't shoot other people's reloads and wouldn't expect them to shoot mine. I have a couple testers on this forum I have sent bullets and shared recipes with and I think we have enough to do the testing. If you'd like some csst bullets to try I can send you some.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Pigslayer posted this 06 March 2016

Ed,      These are your samples loaded with 2.5 gr. Bullseye at .095 OAL. Cases are of mixed headstamp but found no issues in chambering. Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 06 March 2016

Enjoyed lunch with you and Gary yesterday, and the visit to Hafers and Hendershots. The broiled seafood platter upheld the culinary honor of your home state!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Pigslayer posted this 06 March 2016

Went to the range today armed with my .380 LCP & Eds 35-122T bullets loaded with 2.5 grs. Bullseye. OAL - .095".      The gun is of course new to me & used but in mint almost new condition. When I first started shooting I was surprised at how stout the load was with 2.5 grs. Bullseye & would not go any heavier. At first I was shooting to the left of the bull. I adjusted using “Kentucky” windage held that zero throughout. As I continued to shoot my impact area seemed to shift to the right but I held my adjusted zero. After settling down & becoming familiar with where the double action trigger would break, this is where I was as I shot the last six of my bullets.      My .358” LEE sizing die was actually sizing to .3575 according to Starrett. Bullets were tumble lubed with LEE liquid ALOX. There was absolutely no leading. Barrel was clean as a whistle when I finished shooting. I did have some feeding issues from time to time but throughout I had a heck of a good time. Mind you I was using mixed headstamp brass. I know that my shooting will improve with practice. If only I had had another hundred to shoot. Drat!! Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

Ed Harris posted this 06 March 2016

Looks like it will work fine for its up close and personal purpose. You might find that your feeding issues are related to hold. The LCP requires a firm grip like shooting a .45 hardball gun and a stiff arm. Loose grip, one hand hold and bent elbow won't do it.  I hab itually use two-hand Isoceles with hardball grip and mine runs even light loads.

As you found out, 122-125 grain FN loads with 2.5 of Bullseye are “snappy” in this tiny gun.

What was the nature of your “bobbles"? Feeding into the chamber or getting out of the magazine? I found OAL with the flatnosed bullet must not exceed 0.95". Velocity is not affected and no apparent pressure spike if seating is a wee bit deeper, but I wouldn't go below 0.93". I used a 3/8” ball cutter to reshape the interior face of the Lee seater plug to better fit the short nose radius behind the meplat of the Accurate bullet, so that it leaves no mark. I also had Erik at http://www.hollowpointmold.com>http://www.hollowpointmold.com drill a 1/16” lube bleed hole about 3mm above the crimping shoulder of my seating die, which prevents the Lee Liquid Alox from building up and changing seating depth. Use the extruded “lube worms” to flux your casting pot.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Pigslayer posted this 06 March 2016

Ed Harris wrote: Looks like it will work fine for its up close and personal purpose. You might find that your feeding issues are related to hold. The LCP requires a firm grip like shooting a .45 hardball gun and a stiff arm. Loose grip, one hand hold and bent elbow won't do it.  I hab itually use two-hand Isoceles with hardball grip and mine runs even light loads.

As you found out, 122-125 grain FN loads with 2.5 of Bullseye are “snappy” in this tiny gun.

What was the nature of your “bobbles"? Feeding into the chamber or getting out of the magazine? I found OAL with the flatnosed bullet must not exceed 0.95". Velocity is not affected and no apparent pressure spike if seating is a wee bit deeper, but I wouldn't go below 0.93". I used a 3/8” ball cutter to reshape the interior face of the Lee seater plug to better fit the short nose radius behind the meplat of the Accurate bullet, so that it leaves no mark. I also had Erik at http://www.hollowpointmold.com>http://www.hollowpointmold.com drill a 1/16” lube bleed hole about 3mm above the crimping shoulder of my seating die, which prevents the Lee Liquid Alox from building up and changing seating depth. Use the extruded “lube worms” to flux your casting pot. “Bobbles” having to do with feeding into the chamber. I'm a two handed shooter. With this gun the elbow was not bent. I'm right handed & my right was saddled into my left hand. It was a firm hold. I'm attributing the case feed malfunctions to some of my loads having some case bulge due to mixed headstamp & varying case wall thickness. At the times of malfunction the slide would be just shy of going full forward. Maybe 3/32". A little push on the slide sent it home. I think that successively finer grits of compound with my dremel in polishing the ramp will also help.      Yes, this is a snappy little load & not one to be taken lightly if faced with it. Many discount the power of the .380 but it's not something that I would want to be the recipient of at close range . . . or any range. Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 06 March 2016

I instead of the Lee Factory Crimp die, which reduces the body diameter so that bullets are reduced to .356", I use a .38 Special carbide sizer with the decapping them removed, which reduces body diameter of loaded rounds to .373", which is within SAAMI limits. This profiles, but does not crimp.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Pigslayer posted this 07 March 2016

Ed Harris wrote: I instead of the Lee Factory Crimp die, which reduces the body diameter so that bullets are reduced to .356", I use a .38 Special carbide sizer with the decapping them removed, which reduces body diameter of loaded rounds to .373", which is within SAAMI limits. This profiles, but does not crimp.I actually crimped with a Lyman seating die. But the carbide .38 special sizing die is something to think about.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Pigslayer posted this 13 March 2016

Loaded up a bunch of Ed's hollow points. Heading to the range to see how they fly.

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 13 March 2016

In my testing the heat I sent you is too hard to expand at short-barrel .380 ACP velocities. I need to do some from softer alloy and repeat. Those you have should be fine for function tests and working up loads. 've been using 2.5 grains of Bullseye.  The Remington 102-grain Ultimate Defense perform as advertised.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

Pigslayer posted this 13 March 2016

Ed Harris wrote: In my testing the heat I sent you is too hard to expand at short-barrel .380 ACP velocities. I need to do some from softer alloy and repeat. Those you have should be fine for function tests and working up loads. 've been using 2.5 grains of Bullseye.  The Remington 102-grain Ultimate Defense perform as advertised.
I wonder how 40:1 alloy would do? Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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Ed Harris posted this 13 March 2016

I think 1:40 should so it.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Ed Harris posted this 15 March 2016

Gosh, was looking at the hit counter on this thread and I think there are lots more .380 owners lurking out there than .32 shooters, and if this keeps up it's going to catch up with the Bunny Gun category!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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mckg posted this 15 March 2016

I've got 28 empties. Does it count? Do I need a gun for them?

(Barrels under 4.1” are prohibs here...Oooops)

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Pigslayer posted this 15 March 2016

Ed Harris wrote: I instead of the Lee Factory Crimp die, which reduces the body diameter so that bullets are reduced to .356", I use a .38 Special carbide sizer with the decapping them removed, which reduces body diameter of loaded rounds to .373", which is within SAAMI limits. This profiles, but does not crimp. Received from Midway today a LEE .38 special carbide sizer die to remove the case bulge from my loaded .380 rounds. Works perfectly. Installed it in the last hole of my LEE 4-hole turret press. Pat

If someone else had of done to me what I did to myself . . . I'd have killed him. Humility is an asset. Heh - heh.

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