Who loads cast in .380 ACP?

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Last Post 15 March 2016

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

I succumbed to temptation and have on the way a 1934 Beretta autoloader in .380 ACP which I plan to try cast in, to compare with my .32 ACPs and .38 Colt New Police. My interest is in heavier bullets, using the 37-125T Accurate mold, which I ordered to drop .358 instead of the .365 diameter which is normal for it in the 9mm Makarov. This is essentially the 31-087T bullet for the .32 ACP, simply increasing bullet diameter. I have been using 9x17R (.380 Rimmed Short) brass with this bullet in my circa 1930 Colt Police Positive in .38 Colt NP and will be using that data as a basis to start in the .380 ACP for the Beretta pistol, since case length and capacity is similar. Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition has data for #358242 which also provides starting data which will be useful. Anyway, if anyone is loading cast in the .380, particularly with heavier bullets above 100 grains, I would like to know what you are using.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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rockquarry posted this 19 October 2015

Ed- I no longer have any .380s, but used the SAECO #377 truncated / flat nose (122 grains, wheelweight alloy) seated to an OAL of .960” with 2.5 grs. 231 for a muzzle velocity of 800 fps. I used this load in a Makarov and at least one PPK/S; accurate and, as I recall, it fed and functioned well. 2.8 grains Unique did as well with a MV of 789. Powder charges could probably be increased slightly. Never tried Bullseye, but according to my old notes, accuracy suffered with Blue Dot and Herco. Good luck-

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

That helps. Thanks!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 19 October 2015

My .380 is a Bersa Thunder. The Brazilian wonder gun. It's not highly thought of for some reason but people who have them tend to like them. Mine is so dependable and accurate that it's hard to believe. I can't make it malfunction if I tried. Ammo thru it has ranged from fmj import with strange writing on the boxes to modern HPs and a lot of cast bullets. I use two Lee bullets in my .380. The 358-125RF and the Ranch Dog designed TLC358-100-RF. Both are loaded as cast from COWW tumble lubed in 50-50 LLA. Ranch Dog published a lot of load data for the .380 and made a distinction about what loads are ok in what guns. Gotta pay attention. His loads are always upper end stuff. My GP loads contain either W231 or SR4756. I shouldn't name any numbers because my record keeping can be faulty. Both these bullets have been very accurate in my gun. At 15 yds. they go exactly where they're pointed. The rest is on me. _P In California when you get a CCW you have to qualify with a specific gun. Then you can only carry that specific gun. Up to 3 guns are allowed on the permit. One of my 3 is the little Bersa. I trust it as much as anything else I've ever had. AND it loves cast bullets!

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

I'll check out Ranch Dog's site for .380 data. I figure the wartime, steel-frame Beretta is as strong as anything short of a locked breech. I know that my .32 ACP Berettas handle cast 31-087T with a compressed caseful of Alliant #2400 and run like a scalded dog at 900 fps. No drips, runs or errors...

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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tturner53 posted this 19 October 2015

I agree, strength shouldn't be an issue for the Beretta. Ranch Dog's data lists two different guns with different data for each. Some of the difference he attributes to handling recoil. I think he did that work just before the micro .380 wave hit. For a while there it was hard to find .380 brass. Anyway, my loads are not really mysteries. I'm just shy. Lyman gives a lot of .380 cast bullet data and my W231 and 4756 loads are straight from the book. It appears the super fast powders such as Bullseye peak out pressure wise before giving much velocity. Lyman hit 1,000 fps with a 90 gr. cast bullet, 3 1/4” barrel, using W231. I'd start with W231 if I was starting over with the .380. W231 is also their 'accuracy' powder with a 120 gr. RN and good velocity/pressure.

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

Case support is the main issue. If there is significant residual chamber pressure as the slide opens, the case head will look like it is about 3 months pregnant and the primers start backing out. When fired cases start looking like they were fired in a primer-actuated Pedersen self-loader you are over the edge!

If cases look OK, fit back into the shell holder and resize OK, the loads are OK as long as the frame doesn't crack from continued use with higher recoil impulse loads. In that case the magazine body usually takes a beating first, and if you get indents from the bullet noses striking the inside of the magazine box, well therein lies the clue! Try shooting WW2 German 9mm SMG loads in an Astra 400 for an INSTANT demonstration!Does not blow the gun up, but in inspecting the empties you will wonder why not?

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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Larry Gibson posted this 19 October 2015

Most .380s are straight blow back operation and can get battered with the use of heavier than normal bullets as the slide velocity to the rear is a function of the mass/velocity of the bullet/powder gasses going forward. I've settled on the Lee 356-102-1R bullet over 2.5 gr Bullseye loaded in just about any case with CCI or Winchester SP primers. I've used that load for 35+ years in my AMT Backup and numerous other .380s from old to the current new crop. It functions fine in all and gives very good accuracy.

LMG

Concealment is not cover.........

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

LMG wrote: Most .380s are straight blow back operation and can get battered with the use of heavier than normal bullets as the slide velocity to the rear is a function of the mass/velocity of the bullet/powder gasses going forward. I've settled on the Lee 356-102-1R bullet over 2.5 gr Bullseye loaded in just about any case with CCI or Winchester SP primers. I've used that load for 35+ years in my AMT Backup and numerous other .380s from old to the current new crop. It functions fine in all and gives very good accuracy. LMG More good info. I know from previous experience with the .32s that a heavier Wolf recoil spring is your friend!

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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RicinYakima posted this 19 October 2015

TTurner kindly sent me some of his RD 100's to try last year. They are the most accurate light bullets I have tried in 38 Specials. My granddaughter likes to shoot revolvers when she comes over to the desert, so they make a great load with 3 grains of BE.

I've only loaded for two 380's, an AMT Back-Up and a Remington 51. The 51's floating breach block will break if you shoot loads that increase slide speed. Since parts have not been made in 90 years, you will be better to have your broken one welded and spend the time filing it by hand to fit again. And re-hardened! This is not the one to experiment with full power loads.

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Ed Harris posted this 19 October 2015

Reason I picked the 1934 Beretta, plentiful, affordable and rugged. Roy Dunlap in his book Ordnance Went Up Front said it was almost impossible to hurt one. He set his up with a recoil spring made from the smaller diameter bolt return spring for an M2 cal. .50 BMG and he said it would handle all manner of hot loads..

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 20 October 2015

Good choice on the '34. I've had them off and on since 1964. Even shot a woodchuck with one!

(only reason I don't reload for it is that it's an auto-brass-thrower)

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Ed Harris posted this 20 October 2015

TRK wrote: Good choice on the '34. I've had them off and on since 1964. Even shot a woodchuck with one!

(only reason I don't reload for it is that it's an auto-brass-thrower) I bought a bucket of range brass off GunBroker, over 1100 for $50 which I am sorting into batches, the odds and ends will be assembled into stuff I can shoot and let fly. The better stuff in more plentiful quantity lotted up into like batches for experimental use etc. I also got a good buy on 1000 rounds of Fiocchi 95-grain FMJ, which I will stash half for long term, and use the rest for recreational plinking, etc. Not sure I would actually carry the .380, but if I ever decided to, I have some 102-grain Remington GSHP which is supposed to be a decent load if fired in a full sized pistol with 3-1/2” barrel, versus the more fragile JHPs intended more for the micro guns, which upset too quickly and fail to penetrate from a “normal” barrel. My handloading goal is to approximate a 2” .38 Special snubbie. I figure that if I can get 850 fps from a 125-grain flatnosed bullet, that would do the job. Once I've done basic charge establishment and determined that the loads are reliable and accurate, I may have one or more cavities of my 37-125T Accurate mold converted to a cup point of about 110-115 grains, sort of like a Speer 200-gr. .45 ACP “Ashcan” scaled down. My reasoning is to do a cup point of .187” major diameter set in the .227” meplat, with 15 degree draft angle, then truncating the core pin at .25” depth, grinding a smooth radius at the point edges for easy release of the bullet, leaving a .05 flat at the base of the pin. I had my 37-125T cut to drop a .358 bullet instead of the .365 as spec'ed for the 9x18 Marakov, for which it was originally designed. This bullet works great in the .38 S&W or .38 Colt New Police with 2.7 to 3.0 grs. of Bullseye, giving 800-850 fps from a 4” revolver. Identical to 125-grain .38 Special non+P from a 2” gun. A bit warmer than the USGI Ball M41 load of the Vietnam era.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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TRKakaCatWhisperer posted this 20 October 2015

Good plan!

I did that with 2000 once-fired 38 specials!

(Yes, I would love to have a 38 Special AUTOMATIC.)

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Ken Campbell Iowa posted this 20 October 2015

great thread ... i am on my 6th IJ 9mm makarov .. not one jam yet !! every time i get one my buddies decide they need mine ... heh .

i shoot lee cast or bulk commercial lead ...about 90-100 gr ... use 3 grains of TRAP 100 ... got a bucket of it left over from shotgun days .

i put a new higher rate spring in them first thing .

might mention that i had one factory cci blazer aluminum case blow out, mini shrapnel cut the trigger finger slightly ... a reminder that straight blowback is a balancing act ...

just some trivia

ken

oh yeah ... the bersa thunder ... around here they go cheap because the 1911 guys shame the owners into dumping them ... watch for used ones, i have seen them under $200 in mint condition .

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M3 Mitch posted this 20 October 2015

I did a little loading for a PPK/S in .380, using bulk cast bullets of about 90 grains, round nose with one lube groove, not much bearing surface.

Ed, I think you have written that the old PP Walters tend to shoot better than the more recent PPK/S, and that has been my experience.

I didn't have much success with cast bullets in the PPK/S, and eventually traded it off. That was probably at least in part due to the bullets I was using, and maybe because the PPK/S are not in general that accurate.

My general impression is that it's easier to get a good accurate load with a .32 ACP than it is with the .380. As I am saying way too often for a guy with a hard science degree, these observations are based on informal shooting, not real quantitative testing.

In general I have had good luck with Unique in these small, odd-ball cartridges.

Most auto-loaders I like to work up to a load that will lock the action open after the last shot consistently, and then quit while I'm ahead.

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jeff houck posted this 20 October 2015

LBT has some designs that work well in the small semi autos. Send him an e-mail and ask his advise on a heavy for caliber bullet and nose style. Jeff

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Ed Harris posted this 20 October 2015

Jeff Houck wrote: LBT has some designs that work well in the small semi autos. Send him an e-mail and ask his advise on a heavy for caliber bullet and nose style. Jeff

Thanks, but I have an Accurate mold based on a design which has been extremely successful for me in the .32 ACP and 7.62x25 Tokarev, cut with the same form cutter, simply increasing the diameter to .358 and I plan on using that first. It has been working well for me also in the .38 S&W and Colt New Police. and should be a reliable feeder in the Beretta. I'm familiar with Veral's small autopistol bullets and I'm sure one of his would work well, but I want to use what I have first before getting yet another mold.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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bruce1940 posted this 21 October 2015

Ed I am working on cast bullets Lee 100gr RDlyman 356242 90grlyman 356242 120 grStraight Linotype It will be a week or two before I have any good comment.Pistols Lama 380 (old Stoger ver.) Lama 380 newer version There is a difference in the way the barrel links.Both are like new except they are orphans.Lama went out 2or 3 times.I have 2 Ruger LCP 380'sCarry one and keep theother in safe for backup.My loads have been with hornaday HP XTP 115grand a copper bullet from FMP

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Ed Harris posted this 25 October 2015

Assembled some rounds with Accurate 36-125T to check feeding. Overall length needs to be less than 0.975 to avoid edge of nose dragging in magazine. At 0.97” the .030 bevel base rests against the rolled cannelure on Fiocchi brass and seating depth is the same as 95-grain FMJ hardball based on a bullet length of 0.46” for the hardball and 0.48” for the 125T.

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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