varation on 25-20 lever

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shdwlkr posted this 08 July 2007

    I am in the process of getting this rifle built, been waiting over a year so far. It will be on a orginal winchester mdl 92 action with a 24 inch octagon barrel and full length magazine tube. Twist is 1 in 14. I went this route as I have a 32-20 didn't want to have the chance of mixing up brass.  all I know about the barrel at this point is that it is .257 and nothing more as the smith is still making it into a octagon barrel for me.  I plan on shooting mostly 65 and 80 grain lead bullets but have some copper bullets to try and see if I like them. Don't think for the cost I will use many.  Now working up loads is where the fun stuff comes in as most manuals address only 65/68 grain loads and 85/88 grain loads. My question is can I use the beginning loads for the 85/88 grain loads as my starting point and be safe with my 80 grain bullets??  I don't have a clue as to what this rifle will like as it is all custom except the action which is or was orginal the last time I saw it. Yes I trust my smith as he is in his seventies and is a real knowledgeable person he has been a machinist for over 50 years and has been building, fixing, modifing firearms most of that time. You don't get repeat customers on custom stuff if you screw up.  He has already built me a winchester big bore in .375 caliber with a 26 inch octagon barrel and full length magazine tube. It is on the heavy side but I like my rifles with long barrels. I have a new unfired orginal big bore that will get a work out when I get time to load up some CB into the brass. I am waiting for my 6 cavity mould to show up and hopefully before the year is over. The as cast size is .381 so will most likely size it down to .379 or .377 or maybe jsut shoot as cast the rifle will have to tell me what it likes then will have to see what the little brother likes and hope it is the same as they are both early made BB's. The custom one shoots factory stuff pretty good but I know I can get better with cast and will go that direction when I get some time. Hope this winter things slow down some so I can get my reloading done. Will change the open sights out just as soon as I figure what will work with my old eyes and give me what I want with accuracy.  Next year with luck I get a new reloading room and work room. If someone wants to know what it costs to do this, you really need an understanding and loving wife to do this as yes they do cost a lot and are they worth it? To me yes and they will be the only custom guns built for me as they are way to expensive to do it again.  Both calibers will see me through my shooting life and hopefully one of kids will take up dad's levers and shoot them all their lives. Don't think they will wear out shooting cast and keeping them clean.

thanks for the help and ideas.

Sorry for the long post but I am very excited about these two levers and can't wait to burn up some ammo with them. Yes I have 7 levers all  long barrels except my 45-70 which only has a 22 inch barrel for now.

 

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R. Dupraz posted this 08 July 2007

shdwlkr:

Can't offer much info, but man did your post cause a flashback! Back in the late 60's, I had an almost identical rifle built by a smith in St. Onge, SD. The only difference was that mine had a round 22” barrel.

I bought the complete "92" action at a gun show for #15.00 and the gunsmith took it from there. A .256 Win. Mag chambered barrel, full magazine tube, converted the action, furnished the proper metal butt plate and fore end cap and refinished all the metal. The cost was $80.00. Then I fitted and finished a butt stock and fore end out of the purtiest stump black walnut that I had ever seen. 

It sure was a snappy shooting little rifle with Win. 60 grain hollow points as that's all that I ever used in it. Before then, I had been shooting a  Marlin Mod. 62 in .256 so was set up to load anyway. Death on red foxes.

As so often happens, the little rifle went away in a trade one day, don't even remember for what anymore. I did learn later that those old “92” actions had a habit for developing excessive headspace but shouldn't be a concern with cast bullets.

Hope it turns out to be a fine little shooter for you.

Cheers

R. Dupraz

  

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shdwlkr posted this 09 July 2007

R. Dupraz Sorry to hear you traded yours off. I don't expect that will happen with me I buy, seldom trade my firearms. The last one I traded off was a winchester model 94 in 357 mag that just didn't shoot good enough for me and had to be worked on way to much to just slow fire the thing. I think it was the fact the action was way to long for the cartridge. shdwlkr

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R. Dupraz posted this 10 July 2007

After Marlin came out with their 1894 in .357 Mag,I have always thought of having another .256 built. Only this time on the Marlin action with a 24” octagon. If I ever come across a deal on a good used “94", I still think I might.

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shdwlkr posted this 10 July 2007

Dupraz Be careful that is what got me in trouble with both of my custom built's. Found a beat up win 94 bb in .375 winchester and sent it off to the smith to put our twist on it. Then he found a 92 action looking to be put back to work and another was put in the mix to be built. Now over $3000 later one of them is home and the other is still being worked on. I am still looking for 2 beat up win 94's to make into 25-35 and 38-55 one never learns when the bug bits you to do custom stuff. I only hope one of my kids that still think dad hasn't lost his marbles one day pickups up my firearms and keeps them working. If not the auction should be a real hoot to see who pay the most to have at my firearms. They will be sold one at a time and if someone what them they will have to pay what ever the market will bear to get them. I hope to have a baker's dozen by the time I quit of levers in various calibers. Some of kids are girls and they seem to like the milder calibers so dad is collecting them as I find them and someday we will see if they really did want them. One girl has already asked for a 22rf rifle and pistol that she knows dad has put some miles on. None of the rest has asked so if time comes they haven't then off to auction they go. If they fight over what I want to leave them, the instructions read to sell all and give the money to something near and dear to dad. Then the can fight over nothing.

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william iorg posted this 08 January 2008

I was wondering how this project is coming along. I have a Savage Model 23 and a Marlin 1894CL in .25-20 and a Marlin Model 62 in .256 Winchester. I shoot the Lyman 25740 and the 257283.

size=Greg Mushial from GMDR had a Marlin 1894 in .256 Winchester and wrote about it quite a bit on the old Marlin Talk board. Greg was aware of problems some of us were having with long chambers in our .256 rifles and when he had his chamber cut he was careful to get a chamber more in line with the actual cartridge dimensions. Greg experienced much better brass life with his custom chamber than I have with my Marlin.

Greg had a 24x scope on his rifle and did some remarkable shooting at 50 and 100 yards with this rifle. I believe he may have taken a category or two in the first Ranch Dog postal matches.

size=I have a 4x scope with post reticule on my rifle and it works fine for a walking around varminter.

I struggled along for years forming cases from .357 Magnum brass using the bullet seating die as a case forming die, screwing the die in 1/4 turn at a time. This is a time consuming task and you end up with some case loss. I finally ordered a C-H form die and it is simply magic. No lost cases, no wrinkles and no frustration. $40.00 delivered and money well spent.

Here is a link to Greg's web site, in the upper right hand corner click on “additional dataâ€? and you will get his Lyman 257420 data. Scroll down to his Alliant Bullseye and Hodgdon Lil' Gun data for a starter. My experience with Hodgdon Tite Wad and Tite Group mirror Greg's ”€œ Tite Wad is a just a little easier to work with accuracy wise.

Click on the Oregon Trail Data and at the upper left hand column under “home Pageâ€? click on Context Info and read about loading fast powders in large cases and about how his data was taken.

http://www.gmdr.com/>http://www.gmdr.com/

I have shot quite a few of Greg's loads and have found them easy to duplicate ”€œ even if I cannot shoot groups quite so small! Greg finally sent me a picture of the full support rest he uses and it is easier to understand how he is handling recoil and supporting his rifles at the bench. It's worth looking at his data and Hodgdon Lil' Gun and Reloder 10x will undoubtedly prove to be your go-to powders with jacketed bullets. It's hard to believe how well these to powders work with the .256.

I too am a fan of the .375 Winchester in the Model 94 Big Bore rifle. I shoot the 255-grain Lee bullet in my rifle as cast, hand lubed. It is a good performer in my rifle.

Slim

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shdwlkr posted this 12 January 2008

I still don't have the rifle will have to find out what the holdup is. I am waiting for a 260 grain mold for my .375 winchester and the one I had a 26 inch octagon barrel put on is fun to shoot. thanks for the info and I will let you know how it goes when I get my 256. Just picked up another win 94 made in 1917 that someone parkerized so no one wanted it

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william iorg posted this 12 January 2008

I'll be interested in reading of your experiences; you will be the only other “activeâ€? .256 handloader I know of.

Slim

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AMMOe posted this 18 January 2008

In 1980 I got into a long distance “discussion” with P.O.Ackley about forming 256 WM from 357 Magnum brass. He claimed that the forming set was the only way to get it done. I told him that after annealing 357 cases I could lube and run them into a FL .256 Die and have a finished casing. We went back and forth for severl letters. He didn't believe me so I mailed him 50 cases I'd reformed that way. He was very surprised. The quick story is that it works.

The .256 is one of my favorite cartridges. I once competed an entire year at NRA 200M silhouette with a Contender in .256. I shot a Speer 87 grm SP over 2400. Never tooka pig but i knocked down everything else! ~Andy

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william iorg posted this 19 January 2008

I too enjoy loading for and shooting the cartridge. As a small game cartridge the .256 has just about the right amount of energy without the liability of over penetration. I use the 87-grain Hornady ahead of 12.0 grains of Alliant 2400 in the Marlin rifle and it is a pretty accurate combination. Best accuracy in the Marlin with the jacketed bullets comes from the 75-grain bullets: 75-grain JHP's from both Hornady and Sierra or the Speer flat nose.

I have the Lyman 85-grain 257283 but it is a bit long for the Marlin Model 62. This bullet works very well in the .25-20. My Marlin prefers the shorter Lyman 65-grain 257420. Were you using a 10â€? octagon or did you have a custom barrel? If I ever get to feeling like one of Francis Sell's “Hundredaire'sâ€? I would like to have a different barrel for the Marlin, One with a more correct chamber ”€œ or it may be cheaper to have a special size die cut to match the chamber.

Slim

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AMMOe posted this 19 January 2008

Green Mountain makes a vey nice and affordable barrel blank for the 25-20 / 256 Win Mag. It is just the blank but comes in tapered octagon. I have an Australian-barreled 92 in 25-20 as well as a Cadet Martini in 25-20 barreled by the same outfit. Both are remarkably accurate but I've had thoughts about threading up the blank I got from GM and chambering it for .256 WM. It would be an easy swap if I ever decided to go back to the 25WCF. My hesitatrion comes from the fact that with a 14.5 grain charge of 2015BR and the Lyman 257-420 (72 grains)  and open sights it will shoot 50M clusters @ 1800+ ft/sec and is just  as sweet a shooter as a person could want. It's hard to fix what works, you know?

That 14.5 grain load of 2015BR is my favorite #257-420/ 25-20 load. It shoots the same way in my Winchester 92 and my Savage bolt gun. ~Andy

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6pt-sika posted this 21 January 2008

william iorg wrote: I'll be interested in reading of your experiences; you will be the only other “activeâ€? .256 handloader I know of.

Well I am working on getting brass made up for my model 62 but not with a whole lot of luck .>

I do however have a pair of 25-20's and a 25-36 Marlin that I do load for with good results !

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AMMOe posted this 21 January 2008

Try annealing virgin 357 Mag well and then running them into a FL sizer. Size to our chamber. It's how I made all of mine. See above.~Andy

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william iorg posted this 21 January 2008

6Pt, I would try the anneal and size die, if that doesn't work it sometimes helps to give your seating die a light polish using Flitz or any of the other very mild polishing compounds. Some will tell you to turn the seating die in one half turn at a time but I find ¼ turn at a time works best with my RCBS die. I have formed 256WM from new brass both annealed and as they come out of the bag and it didn't make a lot of difference for me. It just takes a lot of die turning. A form die is a good plan and they are not terribly expensive.

I have experienced very poor case life over the years with the Marlin M-62 rifle. The problems with the case are well known. The Marlin and the standard Thompson Center chambers are cut a bit long from the front face of the rim to the point of the shoulder. The rim thickness on the .357 Magnum cases vary a bit in thickness and this causes problems setting up your die for neck sizing as not all of your cases will chamber and allow the action to close after the cases are neck sized. The .357 Magnum brass is not designed to work at the upper pressure levels of the .256 Win Mag and the cases stretch a good bit. You need to be careful in lubing the inside of your case necks for sizing as in my experience the neck expander will stretch cases quite a bit if they are not well lubed. When I load the .256 Win Mag with maximum published load data I seldom get three loads from a .357 Magnum case fired in the Marlin Model 62 rifle. Lighter cast bullet loads work reasonably well.

On the positive side the Marlin Model 62 has proven to be a very accurate rifle.

Back when the Marlin Talk board was going strong Greg Mushial and I spent a bit of time playing with our .256 Win Mags and .25-20's. Greg bought a Marlin .25-20 barrel and had it re-chambered to .256. His chamber was cut very carefully and he used .256 Winchester brass. His case life was excellent and his accuracy was just a bit better than mine.

I like the .25-20 and concentrated on it for a few years and now I have met a young fellow who needs some assistance loading for his .256 so I brought things out and bought a form die. As you can see from the picture it is easy to break cases. These push out with a .30 caliber brush without difficulty. It is best to use a pistol brush as you don't have much room when the bolt is open. I use a brush which has threads too small for my rod. This way I can push the brush down the barrel and bring the case out of the chamber and push the brush and broken case down through the magazine well. If you shoot your Model 62 you will break cases so be prepared. I am forming a few rimless cases from .223 Remington brass and I will form a few from .357 Maximum to see how they handle pressure. I expect to have to inside ream both cases. My Marlin Model 62 will extract but not eject the rimless case. Not certain why.

I look forward to exchanging some cast bullet data as you get ready to shoot. If you want to talk about jacketed stuff we can start a thread on Beartooth.

Slim

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william iorg posted this 21 January 2008

Sorry, forgot to attach the broken case.

Slim

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Paul Pollard posted this 22 January 2008

The Mod 62 Marlin chamber is way oversized. The brass is strong enough. My brother's Marlin will ruin a higher pressure case in 3 firings. My Bullberry Contender barrel won't, using Starline .357 Mag brass in both. Fired cases from the Marlin will not chamber without full length sizing in the Bullberry.

.357 Maximum brass when sized to .256 is a bit smaller. BLC2 comes to the bottom of the neck in the .357 Mag case and 1/2 way up the neck in the Maximum case. A load of 19.5 grains works well in the Marlin with a Remington 86 gr soft nose. This bullet expands to .44 caliber at 100 yds. The quality control on these bullets is poor.

The Eagan MX3-25 shoots well in the Bullberry .256 win mag. Haven't tried it in the Marlin.

The .223 brass is thicker than .357 Mag brass and holds less powder. I needed a screwdriver to pry out the rimless case in the Contender.

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william iorg posted this 22 January 2008

Thanks for some interesting information. I will compare the cases for water capacity.

Did you have to inside ream the .223 Rem cases? I have not cast the chamber and throat but it sems to be generous.

I like the .256 cartridge and the Marlin rifle ”€œ it only needs a barrel with a good chamber.

Slim

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6pt-sika posted this 22 January 2008

Hmmmm , after reading about brass problems you guys are having I just may not shoot this one .>

 

Kinda wish I hadn't gotten a new set of Redding dies :(

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william iorg posted this 22 January 2008

6pt, dont panic yet! Your rifle will shoot cast just fine with good brass life - not great brass life -  but good. We will talk cast bullets and have some economical fun.

Slim

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6pt-sika posted this 22 January 2008

william iorg wrote: 6pt, dont panic yet! Your rifle will shoot cast just fine with good brass life - not great brass life -  but good. We will talk cast bullets and have some economical fun.

Well to be honest I hadn't planned on shooting cast in this rifle ! It was more a jacketed bullet rifle .

I have a pair of 25-20's I can shoot cast in :cba:

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shdwlkr posted this 24 January 2008

Just heard back from my gunsmith and he has a real bad cancer so now I don't have my 256 win and don't know another good smith to do the work. Bad day all around.

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Ed Harris posted this 25 January 2008

shdwlkr wrote: Just heard back from my gunsmith and he has a real bad cancer so now I don't have my 256 win and don't know another good smith to do the work. Bad day all around. John Taylor did my top-break H&R .32 S&W / .32 ACP Long “Bunny Gun," fabricated .357 Mag. and .45 ACP barrels to fit my Beretta M412 folding shotgun, rebarrelled my Cadet  Martini to .357 Magnum and did my Marlin .45 ACP conversion.  I've been quite satisfied with his work.  You might give him a call and see if he could do your project.

John Taylor Machine 712 Spencer Rd. Toledo, WA  98591 Phone # 360-864-2662

73 de KE4SKY In Home Mix We Trust From the Home of Ed's Red in "Almost Heaven" West Virginia

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shdwlkr posted this 28 September 2008

Just an update on my project. I have found someone to make my barrel for me and they will do all the barrel work I want. they will install my sights if I send them to them, they will thread the barrel, will make it any length I wish and anything else to help me.  I will have to fit it to the reciever, mag tube install, the wood on the action, put the action together then I can maybe shoot the dang thing. It will only take money which is in short supply lately more so then in the last few months so this is going to be a long term project instead of 12 month project. oh well what else do I have to do. Ha ha

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Bob 11B50 posted this 27 December 2016

I have a M-92 Win. 25-20, I bought for $25.00, as a parts gun.  My son saw it and said that he would really like it.  A tag on the action said that it had a “jugged” chamber.  I didn't know exactly what a jugged chamber was; so I loaded 5 cases (Starline re-formed from 32-20 to 25-20) with 3 gr. Trail.  I took precautions and when I fired those rounds The cases were all ruptured, almost from the neck to the base.

I got a new barrel from Green Mountain with 1x14 twist in a 4140 24” tapered round barrel.  The barrel is being mounted to the action.  I'll have the gunsmith tighten up the action around, and dovetail a front sight on to the barrel.  I want it chambered in 25-20 WCF and hope that he can put in a 1.5 - 3 * included angle into the throat.  It will only be shooting cast bullets and should be a fun gun, good for coyotes, rabbits, weasels, and squirrels.  I was hoping to get a thought about the throat angle from C.E. Harris.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  

Thanks,

Bob 11B50

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RicinYakima posted this 27 December 2016

What I did was have a 3 degree included angle throater run into the barrel with the chamber about 90% cut. Then I finished cutting the chamber. This process took about 45 minutes longer than just running in the chamber reamer. I was happy with the final chamber casting. I have no idea what a gun smith would charge for the extra set up time and work time. HTH, Ric

p.s. How did you find this 9 year old thread?

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