Looking for 308 Winchester + Varget Load Data

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  • Last Post 24 October 2014
brian382 posted this 09 October 2014

Hi, I've got in my possession some Varget and Lyman 311041 flat point gas checked cast bullets.  Use case is for hunting season, specifically deer.  Does there exist a potent powder combination for the cast bullets I have, or am I better off going with something out of a reloading manual like 5744, 4198, 3031, 335 etc?   I have searched this forum and found some mention of 26-30gr loads, but I would love a sanity check.

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Tom Acheson posted this 09 October 2014

Brian,

If you have access to a collection of Fouling Shots, look at the match results, both shoulder-to-shoulder and the Postals.

My Savage used to like Varget. I tried loads in a range of 24-31 grains, 1584-1871 fps, using a 185-grain LBT CB. But currently the rifle likes VV N-135 (25.0) better.

Have fun !

Tom

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onondaga posted this 10 October 2014

http://castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8405>brian382

Varget is an excellent powder for cast loads in .308

Modern Reloading 2nd Edition , Richard Lee page 145 has a Varget load suitable to use with your bullet. This is for a 175 Gr cast gas checked bullet and just fine to use data:

Charges go from 26 gr @ 1730 fps @ 11,400 psi  to 43.0 gr @ 2530 fps @46,700 psi.

The most accurate cast load will be around 2,000 to 2,150 fps using  33 to 36 grains of Varget.

Lyman #2 alloy at the hardness of BHN 15 is suitable for this load level and a good selection for your alloy.

Gary

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brian382 posted this 10 October 2014

Thanks for the replies.  I was trying loads towards the upper limit, and they were not accurate at all.  I do want a bit faster speed for more energy than 2000fps, so I think I will try out a faster powder for now, and save the varget for plinking.

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onondaga posted this 10 October 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8405>brian382

Varget is a better selection than the faster powders especially if you want more velocity. The faster powders will punch the bullet on start and the slower will give a softer start and more even pressure curve that cast rifle bullets like better for accuracy. Varget is very close in burn characteristic with cast bullets to H4895 that I consider would be your best choice for your bullet in .308. The varget powder is called match grade 4895 for good reason.

Don't know who or how you were convinced a fast powder would get you more accuracy at a higher velocity but I completely disagree. The hard punch of a faster powder more easily distorts a cast bullet and causes gas jetting. The slowest powder with a case fill that gives good ignition is the better choice for cast bullets at hunting load levels.

You may well get beyond 2150 and hold accuracy with Varget or H4895 but a faster powder will not do that.

I helped my grandson develop his cast deer load with a 170 gr FNGC and he gets 1 MOA, 1” 5 shot groups at 100 yards with 36.1 gr H4895@2312 fps verified@33,400 psi from his Savage 11/111 and polished bore.

I think your giving up on Varget is a big mistake. It is an excellent propellant for your bullet weight in .308 Win.

You won't fool a rifle into shooting well with an alloy not up to the load level or bullets that don't fit the chamber throat with a sliding fit. Most .308s like bullets sized/checked at .310” or larger as needed to fit the throat. Mine likes .3105” and certified Lyman #2.  Smaller or softer will wobble down the bore and shoot all over the place.

Gary

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 October 2014

I won't lecture you on your thoughts on Varget. I did have some sucess with SR 4759 but that # is now discontinued. If you can afford it, VV N-135 is worth a try or maybe even N-133, depending on bullet weight.

Just a thought but the very fastest (velocity) is seldom the most accurate.

But....bullet fit to your throat is a very key detail. Ignore that area and accuracy will suffer!

Tom

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brian382 posted this 11 October 2014

I guess I was just frustrated by the lack of data I had come across for this cast.

The only manual I have a copy of is the Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Handbook, which lists powders like Unique, IMR 3031 4227 and 4198, H335, 2.617” OAL for a 173 grain bullet. I just measured and the ones with gascheck are 180 grain, .3085".

The Hodgdon website reloaders data only listed powder for jacketed bullets, and I was having a hard time finding reasonable load data until I came across this forum and your recommendations.

I do in fact have a Savage 11/111 for my hunting rifle, so you've piqued my interests.

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onondaga posted this 11 October 2014

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_user.php?id=8405>brian382

Here is my bore polishing method as used on all my rifles and my grandson's Savage 11/111. I believe this is a key factor to the accuracy he achieves with his rifle and cast bullets.

http://www.castbulletassoc.org/view_topic.php?id=8364&forum_id=63>http://www.castbulletassoc.org/viewtopic.php?id=8364&forumid=63

Make no substitutions or shortcuts and your rifle will shoot cast bullets better and be easier to maintain.

I would not expect below 2 MOA with .3085” bullets in your rifle with any powder, those bullets are too small.

Your best bet is to get a mold that drops bullets .311” or larger then size/check them to throat diameter with a custom honed bullet sizing die. The Lee C312-185-1R cast in #2 alloy and sized/checked .3105” then hollow pointed with the Forster Pistol Hollow pointing bit in a drill press is the best .308 Bullet for me and my Sako Sporter. I shoot it at 2162 fps with H4895. the load groups just under 1"@100 yards.

I do chamber castings to determine throat diameter. good inexpensive product for this and good instructions on the product page:

http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/chamber_casting_alloy.htm>http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/chambercastingalloy.htm

That Lee mold I use:

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/562844/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c312-185-1r-303-british-312-diameter-185-grain-1-ogive-radius-gas-check>http://www.midwayusa.com/product/562844/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c312-185-1r-303-british-312-diameter-185-grain-1-ogive-radius-gas-check

My grandson's bullets are from a Lee mold that I custom honed the driving bands to drop bullets .312” The Lee c309-170-FNGC http://www.midwayusa.com/product/574963/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c309-170-f-30-caliber-309-diameter-170-grain-flat-nose-gas-check?cmvc=ProductFinding

We size/check this bullet to his rifle chamber throat for a sliding fit and seat it to engage the taper of the start of the lands,

Gary

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Tom Acheson posted this 11 October 2014

I should add....for my Savage Mod 12 chambered in .308 W, the LBT bullets are bumped and are 0.3115” dia. afterwards. The bump die was made for my XP-100 and RPM silhouette handguns. Those chambers are not the same “shape” as the Savage production rifle. However, the so called “bumping of the bullet” does impart a consistent taper to the bullet body in front of the top driving band. The bullet is seated about 0.025” extra long and the closing of the bolt “jams” the bullet into the throat while letting the bullet to be moved slightly backwards into the case neck. One detail here is the size of the neck sizing bushing that you use will need to be determined by trial and error until the most accurate combination is found.

How well does it shoot with 25.0-grains of N-135? These are all 10-round groups, 100-yards, in CBA benchrest matches, no look out the window before going to the range cherry picked weather conditions. I seldom shoot this gun in matches compared to my XP-100, but it is an accurate rifle, at least to me. (12) 10-round groups, the average is 1.293". The best was 0.649", and second best was 0.872".

FWIW using 27.0-grains of Varget, same bullet, (18) 10-round groups, the smallest was 0.815” but some were a bit on the “larger” side.

Hope this was helpful.

Tom

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Mike H posted this 14 October 2014

brian382 wrote: Hi, I've got in my possession some Varget and Lyman 311041 flat point gas checked cast bullets.  Use case is for hunting season, specifically deer.  Does there exist a potent powder combination for the cast bullets I have, or am I better off going with something out of a reloading manual like 5744, 4198, 3031, 335 etc?   I have searched this forum and found some mention of 26-30gr loads, but I would love a sanity check.Try 30 grains of Varget and go from there.Mike.

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brian382 posted this 14 October 2014

Do these smaller loads (27 grain for instance) necessitate any filler in the brass due to decreased powder volume?

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Tom Acheson posted this 14 October 2014

Never have tried fillers. Might help, not sure.

Tom

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Mike H posted this 14 October 2014

I haven't used fillers,not match loads in my Brno 601,308 Winchester,honest 2” ten shot groups at 100 yards.

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brian382 posted this 24 October 2014

I went out last weekend to try my luck with some loads at 50 yards.  I only shot 4 rounds per load of 26, 28, 30 (only 3 shots, one neck was mangled), 32, and 34gr just to get a feel for how they performed.  I did not zero my scope for these rounds, though I did aim for bullseye as my reference point.  

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